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Post by Alucard on Jan 28, 2008 15:35:40 GMT -5
Nope.
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Post by lol on Jan 28, 2008 16:54:41 GMT -5
Slavery is a way of life or slavery as an example of what was percieved to be too much Federal control over the southern states? I'm sure there are some on each side who pushed it as an issue..but I don't think it was THE issue some people claim that if it was.. Lincoln himself said his only goal was to unite the union, and if he could do so without freeing the slaves he would. Also consider the fact that if a Southern State had rejoined the union before the date the Proclemation took effect they would have been allowed to keep their slaves. Slavery was THE taboo issue back then. Violence usually happened when it was bought up (e.g., bleeding Kansas). You are correct that Lincoln wasn't the great abolitionist some people claim; however, he wanted slavery to stay only in the Southern states (he did favored the 13th Amendment later on though). Lincoln wasn't going to allow slavery to expand into the territories. The South wasn't simply going to tolerate his position. Without allowing slavery into the territories, there would be a lot more "them" than "us."
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biafra
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Post by biafra on Jan 28, 2008 17:45:43 GMT -5
It seems to me that is slavery was the main crux of the issue (and not slavery being a symptom of a bigger one, States rights and federal control) then they would have allowed and helped John Brown do by small scale violence what it eventually took one of the largest bloodbaths in history to do.
Reasons for war is never cut and dry nor singular..but i'll always contend that a lot of people overstate the issue of slavery as an instigator.
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Post by 2 time pro bowler Fred Dryer on Jan 28, 2008 18:26:17 GMT -5
It seems to me that is slavery was the main crux of the issue (and not slavery being a symptom of a bigger one, States rights and federal control) then they would have allowed and helped John Brown do by small scale violence what it eventually took one of the largest bloodbaths in history to do. Reasons for war is never cut and dry nor singular..but i'll always contend that a lot of people overstate the issue of slavery as an instigator. Agreed. There was actually a movement to abolish slavery in the CSA before the war, in the hopes of gaining European support, and opening the door to using blacks to bolster the ranks of the Confederate army.
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biafra
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Post by biafra on Jan 28, 2008 18:46:28 GMT -5
It seems to me that is slavery was the main crux of the issue (and not slavery being a symptom of a bigger one, States rights and federal control) then they would have allowed and helped John Brown do by small scale violence what it eventually took one of the largest bloodbaths in history to do. Reasons for war is never cut and dry nor singular..but i'll always contend that a lot of people overstate the issue of slavery as an instigator. Agreed. There was actually a movement to abolish slavery in the CSA before the war, in the hopes of gaining European support, and opening the door to using blacks to bolster the ranks of the Confederate army. Lee was an abolitionist. So apparently it wasnt about slavery to him.
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Post by lol on Jan 28, 2008 18:50:19 GMT -5
It seems to me that is slavery was the main crux of the issue (and not slavery being a symptom of a bigger one, States rights and federal control) then they would have allowed and helped John Brown do by small scale violence what it eventually took one of the largest bloodbaths in history to do. Reasons for war is never cut and dry nor singular..but i'll always contend that a lot of people overstate the issue of slavery as an instigator. Agreed. There was actually a movement to abolish slavery in the CSA before the war, in the hopes of gaining European support, and opening the door to using blacks to bolster the ranks of the Confederate army. Those movements were small and they weren't popular. The CSA sat on the idea of allowing black soldiers until the very end. People tend to understate stuff too. There was only one "state right" that compiled the states to secede.
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biafra
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Post by biafra on Jan 28, 2008 18:54:32 GMT -5
Agreed. There was actually a movement to abolish slavery in the CSA before the war, in the hopes of gaining European support, and opening the door to using blacks to bolster the ranks of the Confederate army. Those movements were small and they weren't popular. The CSA sat on the idea of allowing black soldiers until the very end. People tend to understate stuff too. But all you hear are the overstatements. "The Civil War was fought over slavery." The fact is it was an issue among many...and the issue itself was simply an example of a bigger one to most people. History is never as simple as any book can claim..but I stand behind my belief that most of the people who fought did not do so to keep slavery per se or to free any slaves. The reasons were much more myriad and complicated.
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Post by lol on Jan 28, 2008 18:59:51 GMT -5
Lee was an abolitionist. So apparently it wasnt about slavery to him. Are you a "lost cause" supporter? Anyway, Lee wasn't an abolitionist because he owned slaves until about late 1862. Lee thought slaves were better off here than in Africa. He was basically indifferent to the issue.
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biafra
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Post by biafra on Jan 28, 2008 19:06:32 GMT -5
Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:
I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?
And I dont support anything but telling the truth, and "the civil war was fought over slavery" is not the whole truth.
My actual politics apart from this issue is most of the time polar opposite of those who take up my side of this argument.
This letter probably represents the truth about Lee's views on the issue, good bad and hypocritical.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 28, 2008 19:33:24 GMT -5
Anyone who legitimately thinks that the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery is fooling themselves, and hasn't done their research.
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Post by wolfmoon103100 on Jan 28, 2008 20:54:57 GMT -5
You don't see German Americans Flying swastikas as pride.
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Post by MiLo Duck on Jan 28, 2008 21:32:21 GMT -5
I like the flag. I wish it was the U.S. flag instead of the Confederate one, that way we'd have the cooler looking one flying today. Although the ol' Stars and Stripes is pretty kick ass.
As far as the moral implications are involved. I think its ironic that people who claim to fight for cultural tolerance and understanding jump to one and only one conclussion about what type of people fly that flag and why.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jan 28, 2008 21:36:02 GMT -5
You don't see German Americans Flying swastikas as pride. That's because everyone has condemned the National Socialist German Workers Party swastika, even the Germans that live in Germany itself.
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Post by Janitor From Mars on Jan 28, 2008 21:37:12 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on the Confederate Flag (a/k/a Rebel Flag)? Is it still an indicator of racism in your view? It's more of an indicator of ignorance than racism to me. Plus, I laugh at Southerners that blame everything on yankees. We yankees actually shoulder a larger part of the tax burden to keep those darn rebels pacified.
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Post by Janitor From Mars on Jan 28, 2008 21:37:59 GMT -5
Anyone who legitimately thinks that the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery is fooling themselves, and hasn't done their research. Who's drinking the kool-aid here? War of Northern Aggression? Ha!
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MCMGM
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Post by MCMGM on Jan 28, 2008 21:57:54 GMT -5
It doesn't bother me. I associate it with freedom (rebellion). Nothing racist to me there. But I don't go around waving it in the streets. Not my style ^_^
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biafra
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Post by biafra on Jan 28, 2008 22:09:51 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on the Confederate Flag (a/k/a Rebel Flag)? Is it still an indicator of racism in your view? It's more of an indicator of ignorance than racism to me. Plus, I laugh at Southerners that blame everything on yankees. We yankees actually shoulder a larger part of the tax burden to keep those darn rebels pacified. I have lived in the South. It would shock you to find out how little the great majority of us care about what region of the country a person is from. And I've literally not met a person who has blamed everything on "yankees."
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Post by Janitor From Mars on Jan 28, 2008 22:13:18 GMT -5
I've met a few folks from the south that hate yankees, speak ill of them, etc.
It's all petty in the long run.
I don't stand behind any flag except for my actual tribal flag.
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Post by RoloSolo IV on Jan 28, 2008 22:33:30 GMT -5
Civil War wasn't about Slavery.
If I said what I believe the War was really about, most of you wont believe it.
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biafra
El Dandy
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Post by biafra on Jan 28, 2008 22:40:12 GMT -5
I've met a few folks from the south that hate yankees, speak ill of them, etc. It's all petty in the long run. I don't stand behind any flag except for my actual tribal flag. Those people probably also hate Blacks, hispanics, Jews, the Dutch and whoever else. It's a general condition suffered be a minority of us. I have met assholes who hate and blame everyone (including Northerners) but no one has been really northern specific. I have meant some people who look at all southerners as embodying the worst stereotypes and are really obnonxious about it. Assholes know no regional boundries.
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