Rube
Hank Scorpio
Sammich Bogart
It's always the same and it's always different.
Posts: 5,619
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Post by Rube on Jan 28, 2008 23:09:40 GMT -5
Anyone who legitimately thinks that the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery is fooling themselves, and hasn't done their research. It was about many things, but denying that slavery was a big reason is whitewashing. I say it's the biggest, and the Confederate Vice President and the State's declarations of the causes of secession I've read agree with me. And how was the North the aggressors when the south fired the first shot? Civil War wasn't about Slavery. If I said what I believe the War was really about, most of you wont believe it. Judging by the picture of Alex Jones in your sig, I think you're right.
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Post by Drillbit Taylor on Jan 28, 2008 23:11:00 GMT -5
Lee was an abolitionist. So apparently it wasnt about slavery to him. Are you a "lost cause" supporter? Anyway, Lee wasn't an abolitionist because he owned slaves until about late 1862. Lee thought slaves were better off here than in Africa. He was basically indifferent to the issue. Lee kept servants, not slaves. He did pay them. And the ones who were his servants were given to them from his wife's family. And you want to throw around the Slavery thing. Grant, the hero of the Union, held slaves until after the war.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jan 28, 2008 23:12:16 GMT -5
I like the flag. I wish it was the U.S. flag instead of the Confederate one, that way we'd have the cooler looking one flying today. Although the ol' Stars and Stripes is pretty kick ass. As far as the moral implications are involved. I think its ironic that people who claim to fight for cultural tolerance and understanding jump to one and only one conclussion about what type of people fly that flag and why. Excellent post. Assholes know no regional boundries. Excellent point.
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kunswwfmark
Hank Scorpio
Nobody beats Mr. Perfect. Nobody!
Posts: 5,909
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Post by kunswwfmark on Jan 28, 2008 23:14:05 GMT -5
I'm not easily offended, but the Confederate flag offends me as an American, as it stands for what was easily one of the darkest times in our history.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 28, 2008 23:16:29 GMT -5
Eh, I was kidding about the Northern Aggression thing. Shoulda added a smiley of some kind I spose.
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biafra
El Dandy
Biafra Who?
Posts: 7,617
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Post by biafra on Jan 28, 2008 23:16:54 GMT -5
I'm not easily offended, but the Confederate flag offends me as an American, as it stands for what was easily one of the darkest times in our history. That's just it..to a lot of the people who use it, it does not mean that at all.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jan 28, 2008 23:30:57 GMT -5
You don't see German Americans Flying swastikas as pride. That's because the swastika is not the symbol of Germany. It was the symbol of the Nazi party that held control of Germany. That's the flag you would see in the case of German Americans flying a symbol of their past and home.
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Ace Diamond
Patti Mayonnaise
Believes in Adrian Veidt, as Should We All.
mmm...flavor text
Posts: 36,043
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Post by Ace Diamond on Jan 28, 2008 23:33:08 GMT -5
I'm not easily offended, but the Confederate flag offends me as an American, as it stands for what was easily one of the darkest times in our history. That's just it..to a lot of the people who use it, it does not mean that at all. Agreed. If they used it in that context this would be a whole different issue
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Post by lol on Jan 29, 2008 4:43:05 GMT -5
Lee kept servants, not slaves. He did pay them. And the ones who were his servants were given to them from his wife's family. And you want to throw around the Slavery thing. Grant, the hero of the Union, held slaves until after the war. "Servant" was basically a politically correct word for household slave. In 1857, Lee became the executor of the Arlington plantation (his wife's family plantation). He waited until 1862 before emancipating the slaves (manumission) on the plantation. Between 1857 and 1862, Lee loaned out slaves and basically acted like a slave master (e.g., gave orders to slaves and punished slaves for disobedience). Lee was legally binded to free them in less than five years. Grant personally owned one slave (he was a gift from wife's family) and he freed him in 1859. He only owned him for less than a year. His wife had four "servants" until 1863. Grant didn't own those slaves. There is somewhat a debate if Grant's wife owned them or they were the property of her father.
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MCMGM
Vegeta
WC's Official Jeff Buckley Stalkeress.
Red Sonic My Ass
Posts: 9,184
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Post by MCMGM on Jan 29, 2008 6:52:14 GMT -5
BTW, the only flag I let fly is my freak flag, baby!
**leaves**
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Post by Near Fantastica on Jan 29, 2008 12:14:47 GMT -5
I don't care for it, but I mean, the confederate flag is used by white supremacists and the stars and stripes is used for a nation that kills muslims. Not bad guys.
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Post by Kevwhatshisname on Jan 29, 2008 12:29:40 GMT -5
That flag straight up to me means racism and treason. The south (and Texas) has turned their backs on America. The Civil Was fought by the south to keep people like me in chains. I'm glad the north step up to stop the south for leaving and punishing them by freeing my ancestors. (Because they all weren't good people neither) What I don't don't get is why the south wanted to fight for slavery when most of them couldn't even afford slaves.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jan 29, 2008 12:52:32 GMT -5
That flag straight up to me means racism and treason. The south (and Texas) has turned their backs on America. The Civil Was fought by the south to keep people like me in chains. I'm glad the north step up to stop the south for leaving and punishing them by freeing my ancestors. (Because they all weren't good people neither) What I don't don't get is why the south wanted to fight for slavery when most of them couldn't even afford slaves. The Civil War was fought over states rights and not being absolutly controlled by the federal government. Unfortunatly, at the time slavery was around, but it was not the fundamental factor in what was going on. Do not forget that the North, South, East and West all had slaves. It wasn't a South only thing. I will never belittle the plight people had to endure back then. It's a terrible thing, and if I still for the life of me don't understand what can drive people to want to do that to others. However, to say that the war was that simplified is wrong.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Jan 29, 2008 12:57:05 GMT -5
That flag straight up to me means racism and treason. The south (and Texas) has turned their backs on America. The Civil Was fought by the south to keep people like me in chains. I'm glad the north step up to stop the south for leaving and punishing them by freeing my ancestors. (Because they all weren't good people neither) What I don't don't get is why the south wanted to fight for slavery when most of them couldn't even afford slaves. The Civil War was fought over states rights and not being absolutly controlled by the federal government. Unfortunatly, at the time slavery was around, but it was not the fundamental factor in what was going on. Do not forget that the North, South, East and West all had slaves. It wasn't a South only thing. I will never belittle the plight people had to endure back then. It's a terrible thing, and if I still for the life of me don't understand what can drive people to want to do that to others. However, to say that the war was that simplified is wrong. Albeit barbaric and incredibly difficult to fathom such a way of life in this day and age, it was the status quo for a lot of people back then, including numbers of the North. A lot of factors went into that war, slavery was just one of several.
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Post by Kevwhatshisname on Jan 29, 2008 13:09:18 GMT -5
That flag straight up to me means racism and treason. The south (and Texas) has turned their backs on America. The Civil Was fought by the south to keep people like me in chains. I'm glad the north step up to stop the south for leaving and punishing them by freeing my ancestors. (Because they all weren't good people neither) What I don't don't get is why the south wanted to fight for slavery when most of them couldn't even afford slaves. The Civil War was fought over states rights and not being absolutly controlled by the federal government. Unfortunatly, at the time slavery was around, but it was not the fundamental factor in what was going on. Do not forget that the North, South, East and West all had slaves. It wasn't a South only thing. I will never belittle the plight people had to endure back then. It's a terrible thing, and if I still for the life of me don't understand what can drive people to want to do that to others. However, to say that the war was that simplified is wrong. Your right , the Civil War was over states rights. To hold slaves. I know there was others things with the whole states right thing, but slavery was one of the, if not THE biggest issues was slavery. The south saw new western states come in the union free and saw how John Brown was protected up north and the anti-slavery feeling up north and realized that people had enough. They had no real need for slaves, while people in the south ate off of slavery. They needed it. They left because they felt the north was working on abolishing slavery and they wanted to take their ball and leave. As for the flag. Some use it as a south symbol or whatever just how I say the n word to anyone white or black in a casual matter. But Some black hate how we use the word and say the meaning hasn't change yet, the same can be said about the flag.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jan 29, 2008 13:14:52 GMT -5
The Civil War was fought over states rights and not being absolutly controlled by the federal government. Unfortunatly, at the time slavery was around, but it was not the fundamental factor in what was going on. Do not forget that the North, South, East and West all had slaves. It wasn't a South only thing. I will never belittle the plight people had to endure back then. It's a terrible thing, and if I still for the life of me don't understand what can drive people to want to do that to others. However, to say that the war was that simplified is wrong. Your right , the Civil War was over states rights. To hold slaves. I know there was others things with the whole states right thing, but slavery was one of the, if not THE biggest issues was slavery. The south saw new western states come in the union free and saw how John Brown was protected up north and the anti-slavery feeling up north and realized that people had enough. They had no real need for slaves, while people in the south ate off of slavery. They needed it. They left because they felt the north was working on abolishing slavery and they wanted to take their ball and leave. As for the flag. Some use it as a south symbol or whatever just how I say the n word to anyone white or black in a casual matter. But Some black hate how we use the word and say the meaning hasn't change yet, the same can be said about the flag. Like I said, you're really over simplifying it. I'm leaving it at that.
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Post by Kevwhatshisname on Jan 29, 2008 13:16:48 GMT -5
The Civil War was fought over states rights and not being absolutly controlled by the federal government. Unfortunatly, at the time slavery was around, but it was not the fundamental factor in what was going on. Do not forget that the North, South, East and West all had slaves. It wasn't a South only thing. I will never belittle the plight people had to endure back then. It's a terrible thing, and if I still for the life of me don't understand what can drive people to want to do that to others. However, to say that the war was that simplified is wrong. Albeit barbaric and incredibly difficult to fathom such a way of life in this day and age, it was the status quo for a lot of people back then, including numbers of the North. A lot of factors went into that war, slavery was just one of several. Do me a favor and name some. Anyone, the guy who said we wouldn't believe him. Some of you guy casually say others issues as if its nothing. Slaves build the south! Any other reason would be filler. As for Blacks and Natives Americans fighting on both sides. I can see that. Native Americans owned slaved too and the blacks might of be promised freedom or even just misguided.
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Post by Kevwhatshisname on Jan 29, 2008 13:22:12 GMT -5
Your right , the Civil War was over states rights. To hold slaves. I know there was others things with the whole states right thing, but slavery was one of the, if not THE biggest issues was slavery. The south saw new western states come in the union free and saw how John Brown was protected up north and the anti-slavery feeling up north and realized that people had enough. They had no real need for slaves, while people in the south ate off of slavery. They needed it. They left because they felt the north was working on abolishing slavery and they wanted to take their ball and leave. As for the flag. Some use it as a south symbol or whatever just how I say the n word to anyone white or black in a casual matter. But Some black hate how we use the word and say the meaning hasn't change yet, the same can be said about the flag. Like I said, you're really over simplifying it. I'm leaving it at that. Please don't. I honestly want to know how complicated it was. My guess though it wasn't and intricate as WW1. I was taught the southerners were taught about the different. But was never told how different. Edit: I know I come off a little sarcastic and and angry but I'll honestly listen to anyone else's side. I;m not narrow minded.
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Rube
Hank Scorpio
Sammich Bogart
It's always the same and it's always different.
Posts: 5,619
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Post by Rube on Jan 29, 2008 13:44:43 GMT -5
The Civil War was fought over states rights and not being absolutly controlled by the federal government. Unfortunatly, at the time slavery was around, but it was not the fundamental factor in what was going on. Do not forget that the North, South, East and West all had slaves. It wasn't a South only thing. I will never belittle the plight people had to endure back then. It's a terrible thing, and if I still for the life of me don't understand what can drive people to want to do that to others. However, to say that the war was that simplified is wrong. Your right , the Civil War was over states rights. To hold slaves. I know there was others things with the whole states right thing, but slavery was one of the, if not THE biggest issues was slavery. The south saw new western states come in the union free and saw how John Brown was protected up north and the anti-slavery feeling up north and realized that people had enough. They had no real need for slaves, while people in the south ate off of slavery. They needed it. They left because they felt the north was working on abolishing slavery and they wanted to take their ball and leave. Bingo, bango, boingo. "The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists amongst us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." - Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephans
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jan 29, 2008 14:03:20 GMT -5
To the people who owned slaves, a large part of the war was slavery. To everyone else, aka the vast majority in the south who did not own slaves, the war was more about states rights, with the slavery issue being an example of what they saw as the Big Brother government.
Think about the smoking issue. Some of the people against the idea of the government passing bans on smoking don't smoke; though they themselves do not smoke and so the ban itself wouldn't greatly affect them, they dislike the idea of the government impeding in that manner and so are against it even if they dislike smoking as well. Same things apply here; the people who didn't have slaves and didn't care greatly about the issue still didn't like the federal government involving itself in what they felt was a state issue.
In the end, both sides have some validity here. The Civil War was fought over both slavery and slavery as a vehicle for states rights. It all depends upon which group of people in the war you're looking at.
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