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Post by Throwback on Jan 9, 2008 23:08:12 GMT -5
one main problem with this. I hate it when guys are on the top of the cage then jump back in. you could all the pyscology spins on that you want and it still doesn't make sense. now if orton sarted to shake the chage causeing hardy to fall and pull out the witw as a last desperation it would have made more sense. If you were in shark infested water would you jump back in after you were almost out? That depends. Are the sharks wearing lasers on their heads? not just any kind of lazers. they are fricken lazers.
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Post by Topher is Human on Jan 9, 2008 23:13:36 GMT -5
one main problem with this. I hate it when guys are on the top of the cage then jump back in. you could all the pyscology spins on that you want and it still doesn't make sense. now if orton sarted to shake the chage causeing hardy to fall and pull out the witw as a last desperation it would have made more sense. If you were in shark infested water would you jump back in after you were almost out? Like a poster said earlier, at that stage, Orton was stalking him on the outside, and realistically he would be defensless if he were to climb down. So he decided to finish Umaga off and win it that way so if Orton were to go after him, he's be ready for it.
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H-Fist
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,485
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Post by H-Fist on Jan 9, 2008 23:17:30 GMT -5
one main problem with this. I hate it when guys are on the top of the cage then jump back in. you could all the pyscology spins on that you want and it still doesn't make sense. now if orton sarted to shake the chage causeing hardy to fall and pull out the witw as a last desperation it would have made more sense. If you were in shark infested water would you jump back in after you were almost out? That depends. Are the sharks wearing lasers on their heads? Yes...and they're Samoa Joe's GREEN FRICKIN' LASERS! But seriously, the problem with the WitW spot on RAW was this: WWE insists on having either/or finishes in it's cage matches. The Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart cage match at Summerslam in 1994 had a decision via escape only. In other parts of deep wrestling history, the referee would be inside the cage for pins or submissions only. The cage's purpose was to keep others out of the match. By allowing both pin falls and escape decisions, psychology is being muddled. Is it cowardly to escape, when a real man would stay and fight? Is it foolish to fight when you can escape with little damage to yourself? If you could only win by escape, then the WitW would say, "I hate you so much, that I'll risk losing to hurt you more." If you could only win by decision, then it would say, "I need to add the elevation to do extra damage to make sure I put you away." Those are VERY different things, and the Hardy spot didn't answer that particularly well.
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Jan 10, 2008 0:11:07 GMT -5
Then again it's easy for people who have never been in the ring to be the ones to judge this, not someone who has. Oh yes, just because someone has worked inside the ring means their opinions matter more because they "know better." Right Hulk Hogan?
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Jan 10, 2008 0:47:29 GMT -5
Then again it's easy for people who have never been in the ring to be the ones to judge this, not someone who has. Oh yes, just because someone has worked inside the ring means their opinions matter more because they "know better." Right Hulk Hogan? I never said that, but thanks for inserting words. The opinion don't matter more, but it has more education behind it. You see something as OMFG he jumped off something, which he has been doing his whole career, as I would see it as he took an un-neccesary bump in a non-important match with no reason behind it. The whole point is the spot wasn't that impressive ok so he fell into someones arms whoopity doo.
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Jan 10, 2008 0:48:48 GMT -5
What is everyone going nuts about this for? Sure it was a great spot but we've seen things just as good as it many times before. Seriously! Not trying to rain on everyone's parade or nothing, but he's done this same thing before in a cage match. I don't think it can be the equivalent to what Snuka did back in the 80's at all. Completely different thing here. Maybe if Umaga did something like that, I would be praising it more, but come on people. It was a decent spot to end the show, but nowhere near groundbreaking.
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Post by Lionheart on Jan 10, 2008 0:51:35 GMT -5
I've been thinking of doing this sig for a while. This thread made me decide to pull the trigger.
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Post by PTBartman on Jan 10, 2008 0:57:24 GMT -5
Jeff has a style. I can simplify it to "flipping around" in the same way I can simplify a bout of chain-wrestling between Finlay and Regal to "going through the motions." Kayfabe-wise, high-flying and full-body strikes are an effective means of matching up against opponents with superior strength or technical prowess. Those circus performers are acrobats putting on a performance, not wrestlers using high-flying to "win" a match. There's a difference. Considerably, I'd say. I'd say he had the better body in 1999, but a better moveset? Better precision? Better mic work? Better singles matches? I'd give him marks for improvement in all of these categories. Wow, we're not bitter- much. How am I bitter, because i say it's easier to judge him having been in the ring compared to not being in the ring? Hell I have nothing to be bitter against I've done enough with my proffesion as i need to to be happy. I don't have to be in WWE or TNA and compromise who i am to be happy with my career i already am. It may be easier, it also may be harder. You may not be able to see the forrest for the trees. I've been watching wrestling for over 35 years now. I know what entertains, and I don't just mean spots. What entertains me is anything that makes me forget I'm watching wrestling and I start acting like I'm watching something "real" You may have lost that along the ways. I can relate. My whole life I've loved acting and entertainment. (Might be why I can forgive just about anything in wrestling but bad stick work.) Television, radio, movies, stage doesn't matter. If it's good I'm there. The problem is I've been studying it my whole life. Then in the 80's and nineties I started doing comunity theatre. I decided to truly study acting techniques. I started studying at one of the best school's in NYC, HB Studios. During that time I studied for three years under Bill Hickey who actually had been nominated for an Oscar For Prizis Honor. When he died they showed his picture on Oscar night. He was also a great teacher. I learned a lot. Maybe too much. I know enough about technique etc. where its hard for me to enjoy what the average fan does. I look at it through different eyes. And a lot of my friends don't understand half of what I enjoy. I seldom go to the movies with or watch TV with them. If Hollywood only made what I liked they'd be bankrupt within 5 years. As for the spot, for me the long time fan, it worked. All elements came together for a spot that made me jump off my bar stool. The action built through the whole match. and kept getting bigger and bigger. It went back and forth telling a story. There were a few times I was Sure Jeff was done. I actually thought when Orton Slammed the door on Jeff, Jeff was done or would be shortly. Then the spot itself. the fakeout I thought he was going for Orton. But no he went the other way. The camera caught it just about perfectly and The comentary was spot on (pun intended). For a fan it was great. And as a fan I'm really liking Jeff. I'm really hoping he beats the urine out of Orton at the rumble. Nothing against Orton, he's just the heel I love to hate right now.
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Post by PTBartman on Jan 10, 2008 1:10:45 GMT -5
That depends. Are the sharks wearing lasers on their heads? Yes...and they're Samoa Joe's GREEN FRICKIN' LASERS! But seriously, the problem with the WitW spot on RAW was this: WWE insists on having either/or finishes in it's cage matches. The Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart cage match at Summerslam in 1994 had a decision via escape only. In other parts of deep wrestling history, the referee would be inside the cage for pins or submissions only. The cage's purpose was to keep others out of the match. By allowing both pin falls and escape decisions, psychology is being muddled. Is it cowardly to escape, when a real man would stay and fight? Is it foolish to fight when you can escape with little damage to yourself? If you could only win by escape, then the WitW would say, "I hate you so much, that I'll risk losing to hurt you more." If you could only win by decision, then it would say, "I need to add the elevation to do extra damage to make sure I put you away." Those are VERY different things, and the Hardy spot didn't answer that particularly well. I disagree I feel it answered it beautifully. He gets to the top, halfway to victory. He's got Orton on one side (fresh no less) and Umaga on the other. He's got two options to win. He goes for Umaga (it's actually smarter cause its less of a fall, and let's face it Umagas looks a little "fluffier" to land on. It makes sens and he goes for it.
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Jan 10, 2008 1:11:06 GMT -5
I'll just say as a longtime wrestling fan, I've seen way better/more impressive spots off the top of a cage. Not saying that one was terrible, but it wasn't like the move of the decade or something IMO.
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Jan 10, 2008 1:15:50 GMT -5
How am I bitter, because i say it's easier to judge him having been in the ring compared to not being in the ring? Hell I have nothing to be bitter against I've done enough with my proffesion as i need to to be happy. I don't have to be in WWE or TNA and compromise who i am to be happy with my career i already am. It may be easier, it also may be harder. You may not be able to see the forrest for the trees. I've been watching wrestling for over 35 years now. I know what entertains, and I don't just mean spots. What entertains me is anything that makes me forget I'm watching wrestling and I start acting like I'm watching something "real" You may have lost that along the ways. I can relate. My whole life I've loved acting and entertainment. (Might be why I can forgive just about anything in wrestling but bad stick work.) Television, radio, movies, stage doesn't matter. If it's good I'm there. The problem is I've been studying it my whole life. Then in the 80's and nineties I started doing comunity theatre. I decided to truly study acting techniques. I started studying at one of the best school's in NYC, HB Studios. During that time I studied for three years under Bill Hickey who actually had been nominated for an Oscar For Prizis Honor. When he died they showed his picture on Oscar night. He was also a great teacher. I learned a lot. Maybe too much. I know enough about technique etc. where its hard for me to enjoy what the average fan does. I look at it through different eyes. And a lot of my friends don't understand half of what I enjoy. I seldom go to the movies with or watch TV with them. If Hollywood only made what I liked they'd be bankrupt within 5 years. As for the spot, for me the long time fan, it worked. All elements came together for a spot that made me jump off my bar stool. The action built through the whole match. and kept getting bigger and bigger. It went back and forth telling a story. There were a few times I was Sure Jeff was done. I actually thought when Orton Slammed the door on Jeff, Jeff was done or would be shortly. Then the spot itself. the fakeout I thought he was going for Orton. But no he went the other way. The camera caught it just about perfectly and The comentary was spot on (pun intended). For a fan it was great. And as a fan I'm really liking Jeff. I'm really hoping he beats the urine out of Orton at the rumble. Nothing against Orton, he's just the heel I love to hate right now. You said you like spots that make you forget it's not real. How did that do it. If I'm ontop of something "15" feet high I'm not jumping off, I'll climb down. If I'm Umaga or anyone I'm not going to stand there and watch someone falling ontop of me. To suspend belief i would need something more then someon getting ready to fight for what they've wanted there whole career take a chance of throwing it all away by taking an unnecesarry stunt. Jeff Hardy is not safe in the ring and don't know what the hell he is doing. Sadly no one taught him respect for the buisness when he snuck in. Topo bad he never had to pay any dues. Too bad he didn't get the stiff matches everyone esle had to endure. Go ahead and mark out for your backyard quality wrestler all you want though to each there own, i gave my oppinion people want to get there panties tight thats on them.
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Post by Lionheart on Jan 10, 2008 1:24:25 GMT -5
To suspend belief i would need something more then someon getting ready to fight for what they've wanted there whole career take a chance of throwing it all away by taking an unnecesarry stunt. Congrats on missing the whole point of Jeff Hardy's character. Yep, no bitterness to see here folks, move along. Perhaps we ought to trust that you have enough intimate familiarity with backyard wrestling to take your word for it. Thanks a ton for your kind permission to be entertained by the wrestlers that entertain us. And we really appreciate your wisdom. But maybe for your sake you should steer clear of Jeff Hardy discussions in the future, it has to be time-consuming to extricate the kind of wedgie you've given yourself there.
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Jan 10, 2008 1:29:06 GMT -5
To suspend belief i would need something more then someon getting ready to fight for what they've wanted there whole career take a chance of throwing it all away by taking an unnecesarry stunt. Congrats on missing the whole point of Jeff Hardy's character. Yep, no bitterness to see here folks, move along. Perhaps we ought to trust that you have enough intimate familiarity with backyard wrestling to take your word for it. Thanks a ton for your kind permission to be entertained by the wrestlers that entertain us. And we really appreciate your wisdom. But maybe for your sake you should steer clear of Jeff Hardy discussions in the future, it has to be time-consuming to extricate the kind of wedgie you've given yourself there. See i would reply, but then i would get in trouble, since apparently it is against the rules to not like Jeff Hardy.
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Post by Lionheart on Jan 10, 2008 1:31:51 GMT -5
See i would reply, but then i would get in trouble, since apparently it is against the rules to not like Jeff Hardy. "People disagree with me, therefore they're saying I don't have a right to my opinion! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!"
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Jan 10, 2008 1:32:45 GMT -5
See i would reply, but then i would get in trouble, since apparently it is against the rules to not like Jeff Hardy. "People disagree with me, therefore they're saying I don't have a right to my opinion! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!" You haven't got the "mod" PMs I've gotten, so yeah I wont say anything else.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jan 10, 2008 1:35:54 GMT -5
You know good and well why you got a PM from a mod. It hardly had anything to do with your opinion. You broke one of the rules. Now let it go. If you hate Jeff Hardy so much then don't waste your time posting about him.
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Post by ghettooverlord on Jan 10, 2008 1:39:43 GMT -5
As of right now, I would find it a travesty if Orton retained at the Rumble. That's how good a job the WWE has done to get me behind Hardy.
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Jan 10, 2008 1:40:36 GMT -5
You know good and well why you got a PM from a mod. It hardly had anything to do with your opinion. You broke one of the rules. Now let it go. If you hate Jeff Hardy so much then don't waste your time posting about him. I'd like to know how i broke a rule, but ehh to each there own. also thats not the e-mail I'm talking about.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jan 10, 2008 1:43:53 GMT -5
You know good and well why you got a PM from a mod. It hardly had anything to do with your opinion. You broke one of the rules. Now let it go. If you hate Jeff Hardy so much then don't waste your time posting about him. I'd like to know how i broke a rule, but ehh to each there own. also thats not the e-mail I'm talking about. 9.WRESTLER BASHING - Do not go too far in bashing wrestlers or wrestling personalties past or present. For example, wishing death or serious injury on a Wrestler (or any other person for that matter) will not stand. Do not go too far in mentioning a wrestlers "Personal Demons" or any rumors you may have heard about them.We do have wrestlers who post here. You don't have to kiss their ass, just be respectful.
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Jan 10, 2008 1:45:52 GMT -5
I'd like to know how i broke a rule, but ehh to each there own. also thats not the e-mail I'm talking about. 9.WRESTLER BASHING - Do not go too far in bashing wrestlers or wrestling personalties past or present. For example, wishing death or serious injury on a Wrestler (or any other person for that matter) will not stand. Do not go too far in mentioning a wrestlers "Personal Demons" or any rumors you may have heard about them.We do have wrestlers who post here. You don't have to kiss their ass, just be respectful. I never wished harm on him at all, i said that he deserved to get beat up legit, stiffed if you will, it's a way of the buisness. But i apologize all mighty ones for saying that he deserved to pay dues, and get what everyone else got so that he would have more respect for the buisness. And no bringing up personal demons does that mean everyone talking about the Benoit situation is getting banned.
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