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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Jan 29, 2008 15:20:30 GMT -5
Ok, we all know they didn't give it time and hot-shotted it, and then turned it into the opposite of what everyone was expecting. But thinking about it, going backwards (meaning what they should have done with the brand in the beginning), WWE made such a horrible business move with making ECW nothing but a 5th hour of WWE.
ECW caters to a different fanbase, one that is either out of touch with WWE or won't watch it. You establish a brand that is seperate from WWE, and you'll attract new consumers. The numbers flopped. But it was still (possibly) maybe 1.0 of new/returning viewers to watch the show, considering the early ratings. Which is a million people. A million people who dropped off once they made it an offical 3rd brand extension of WWE.
Meaning WWE lost out on a lot of potential money from new consumers. We all know everyone who watches RAW and Smackdown, the PPVs and now ECW are essentially the same fanbase. How much more cash flow into the company can adding another hour of regular WWE programming can realistically bring in? A kid who watches SD, RAW and ECW probably still has the same monetary restraints with or without ECW. I'm sure his/her parents (or any normal minded person) wouldn't go "Hmm, ok WWE is giving my kid one more hour...I think I'll buy one more t-shirt".
Now it's even worse since there are no more ECW exclusives. Making ECW a third hour of SD killed even more cash potential. Are people going to buy another Rey Mysterio shirt cause he is on 2 shows?
WWE had a great thing going. Bonnie Hammer was still on her proverbial blowjob of the WWE and let them run the show on SCI-FI. SCI-FI for f***'s sake!
I could go on and on about what WWE isn't getting from making ECW a third WWE brand, but it all follows the same formula. Essentially, WWE f***ed itself over by not differenciating a brand from itself, losing many potential consumers. It's like, wouldn't you think if Coca-Cola bought out Pepsi they would still sell Pepsi because there is that fanbase out there that refuses Coca-Cola and loves the taste of Pepsi? So Coca-Cola owns the rights to Pepsi, and the formula, and can use the same factory to manufacture it, but they don't, and (fake figure) 80 million people drop out of the soda market. That's probably the best analogy I can give you.
I can't figure out why WWE did this. Maybe someone could shed some light on it. And hopefully I put it in perspective why there is a legitamite reason to be pissed off at WWE for what they did. I don't want to think that the McMahons have an ego problem and won't let anything but their own strive, or were scared of Heyman's skills, or watever, but given my statements, why the f*** did they do this to ECW? Why would they have deliberately destroy potential cash flow? This is the company that used a dead man's name to get the audience behind a superstar, and you mean to tell me they have too much "integrity" to bite the bullet and let ECW be successful, even if it means more money for the company as a whole?
Seriously Vince...WHAT THE f***!?!?!?!
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Post by Cypress on Jan 29, 2008 15:23:58 GMT -5
vince would rather lose money than let a heyman run ECW overshadow his shows
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Jan 29, 2008 15:26:18 GMT -5
vince would rather lose money than let a heyman run ECW overshadow his shows Realistically, Vince is a great businessman. No doubt about it. Do you honestly think he holds vendettas to get in the way of making money? Considering what he has done with his company, I wouldn't think so, but then again there is the evidence that supports all these BS IWC claims.
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Post by Mr. Mediocre on Jan 29, 2008 15:27:55 GMT -5
vince would rather lose money than let a heyman run ECW overshadow his shows Realistically, Vince is a great businessman. No doubt about it. Do you honestly think he holds vendettas to get in the way of making money? Considering what he has done with his company, I wouldn't think so, but then again there is the evidence that supports all these BS IWC claims. Given how terribly run the invasion was, and how he buried both Dusty Rhodes and Ricky Steamboat (his second run) when they came to the WWF back in the day, I'd say that Vince does hold vendettas. And I do believe that Vince would rather lose money than have a Heyman run ECW be succesful.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 15:31:23 GMT -5
The problem ECW is having is that there isn't enough support from WWE. When it had talent like Van Dam, Big Show and other big names, it was drawing more fans. Even when Vince was on the show (in his feud with Lashley), ratings improved.
Basically, it needs a better roster with more talent that more people care about. CM Punk and Chavo Guerrero aren't going to draw fans, at least not yet.
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Post by acressl on Jan 29, 2008 15:36:17 GMT -5
vince would rather lose money than let a heyman run ECW overshadow his shows Honestly. Though realistically, Paul'd need a great deal nore freedom than Vince provides. Something as big as the E can't be too racey, but it can be booked better. A few early episodes felt more ECDubish as if Paul's influence was in there somewhere. Then it was gone.
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Jan 29, 2008 15:39:31 GMT -5
The problem ECW is having is that there isn't enough support from WWE. When it had talent like Van Dam, Big Show and other big names, it was drawing more fans. Even when Vince was on the show (in his feud with Lashley), ratings improved. Basically, it needs a better roster with more talent that more people care about. CM Punk and Chavo Guerrero aren't going to draw fans, at least not yet. I dare say they never will. It's clear nothing of real importance happens on ECW anymore, so I doubt it will ever regain the audience it had in 2006.
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Post by Squirrel Master on Jan 29, 2008 15:44:23 GMT -5
[ Vince would rather lose money than let a Heyman-run ECW overshadow his shows. My gut feeling is that Vince McMahon wants to obliterate all fond memories of the late, great ECW. Once he feels that the fans have forgotten Heyman's product, the new ECW will fade away slowly.
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Post by nerdinitupagain on Jan 29, 2008 16:17:32 GMT -5
[ Vince would rather lose money than let a Heyman-run ECW overshadow his shows. My gut feeling is that Vince McMahon wants to obliterate all fond memories of the late, great ECW. Once he feels that the fans have forgotten Heyman's product, the new ECW will fade away slowly. Todd Gordon gave a great interview about his feeling on the new ECW and how it was basically Vince trying to destroy the legacy of ECW so that he can bask in more of the attitude era creation in history. Good read.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jan 29, 2008 16:27:37 GMT -5
I've read this 3 times and still can't figure out what the problem is here.
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Jan 29, 2008 16:33:46 GMT -5
I think that anyone who thinks the reason Vince is treating the ECW as he is because he 'can't have Heyman's brand be successful' is deluded and horribly naive. There is a reason so many people in the business call him a genius.
I would guess that they are using ECW as they are now because it is a breeding ground for stars lost in the shuffle. ECW means that basically no-one needs to get lost in the shuffle, because if there isn't room on Raw/SD they can go to ECW, get repackaged and get pushed again. That potential for development means they are getting the absolute most out of their roster, and making sure everyone has a role to play.
Basically, once they lost Show and Angle, and then lost the Originals, there wasn't any point in keeping ECW unique. It would be much better for them long term to use it to create new stars. I know people didn't like Lashley but he was able to climb the card quicker than if he was still stuck in the mid card on SD, because there is only one show a week, that means there can only be one main story going on at the top of the card, which means if you are an up and coming star you will be waiting around for too long for your chance, especially since WWE needs new stars.
Also, having it as a 'hardcore' brand doesn't really serve any long term purpose, apart from to cater to the old school ECW fans, which isn't WWE's target audience anyway. They made the decision to structure ECW to be better, long term, for their current target audience instead of trying to make it good for the old school fans.
It also isn't a 'third hour of SD'. The swap deal just allows ECW to pad out it's roster. It was stupidly small, and considering Smackdown was struggling with injuries, it made sense. It gives guys like Punk and Morrison more exposure.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jan 29, 2008 16:36:02 GMT -5
And when has Rey Mysterio ever wrestled on ECW on Sci Fi?
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Jan 29, 2008 16:57:21 GMT -5
It was getting good for a while mid/late last year, but now it's just bad.
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Jan 29, 2008 17:00:54 GMT -5
I think that anyone who thinks the reason Vince is treating the ECW as he is because he 'can't have Heyman's brand be successful' is deluded and horribly naive. There is a reason so many people in the business call him a genius. I would guess that they are using ECW as they are now because it is a breeding ground for stars lost in the shuffle. ECW means that basically no-one needs to get lost in the shuffle, because if there isn't room on Raw/SD they can go to ECW, get repackaged and get pushed again. That potential for development means they are getting the absolute most out of their roster, and making sure everyone has a role to play. Basically, once they lost Show and Angle, and then lost the Originals, there wasn't any point in keeping ECW unique. It would be much better for them long term to use it to create new stars. I know people didn't like Lashley but he was able to climb the card quicker than if he was still stuck in the mid card on SD, because there is only one show a week, that means there can only be one main story going on at the top of the card, which means if you are an up and coming star you will be waiting around for too long for your chance, especially since WWE needs new stars. Also, having it as a 'hardcore' brand doesn't really serve any long term purpose, apart from to cater to the old school ECW fans, which isn't WWE's target audience anyway. They made the decision to structure ECW to be better, long term, for their current target audience instead of trying to make it good for the old school fans. It also isn't a 'third hour of SD'. The swap deal just allows ECW to pad out it's roster. It was stupidly small, and considering Smackdown was struggling with injuries, it made sense. It gives guys like Punk and Morrison more exposure. I agree with most of what you said except the third hour of SD part which I think it is.
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Jan 29, 2008 17:32:41 GMT -5
I still hold the belief that it's more incompetence rather than pettiness that's the key to Vince's failures with foreign talent and ideas.
Seriously why would anyone bother to sign someone with the intent of smurfing up? Hey let me throw a bunch of money at you while we make you not as cool as you used to be, but not as horrible as everyone makes you out to be, and occasionally not use you.
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Jan 29, 2008 18:15:48 GMT -5
To me, ECW could becom a way to revive the Attitude era, considering that the original was the proto-Attitude fed anyway.
My friends and I think that a good compromise would be for ECW to have hardcore-style matches only at PPV's or to boost the ratings occasionally, as cage matches are used today.
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Jan 29, 2008 18:40:50 GMT -5
I think that anyone who thinks the reason Vince is treating the ECW as he is because he 'can't have Heyman's brand be successful' is deluded and horribly naive. There is a reason so many people in the business call him a genius. I would guess that they are using ECW as they are now because it is a breeding ground for stars lost in the shuffle. ECW means that basically no-one needs to get lost in the shuffle, because if there isn't room on Raw/SD they can go to ECW, get repackaged and get pushed again. That potential for development means they are getting the absolute most out of their roster, and making sure everyone has a role to play. Basically, once they lost Show and Angle, and then lost the Originals, there wasn't any point in keeping ECW unique. It would be much better for them long term to use it to create new stars. I know people didn't like Lashley but he was able to climb the card quicker than if he was still stuck in the mid card on SD, because there is only one show a week, that means there can only be one main story going on at the top of the card, which means if you are an up and coming star you will be waiting around for too long for your chance, especially since WWE needs new stars. Also, having it as a 'hardcore' brand doesn't really serve any long term purpose, apart from to cater to the old school ECW fans, which isn't WWE's target audience anyway. They made the decision to structure ECW to be better, long term, for their current target audience instead of trying to make it good for the old school fans. It also isn't a 'third hour of SD'. The swap deal just allows ECW to pad out it's roster. It was stupidly small, and considering Smackdown was struggling with injuries, it made sense. It gives guys like Punk and Morrison more exposure. How much more exposure does the "regular" WWE need? 5 hours is a lot, and many complaints here is that we see the same stuff over and over. Why? The WWE is oversaturated. So what does a 5th hour really do? If they kept it as a seperate, unique brand it has the potential to be an awesome cash cow. Like I said before, how much more business can a 5th hour of the same product bring in? How many more buys? How much more merchandise? No one is really exclusive anymore, so Punk and Morrison are moot points now. Besides, like I said, they don't draw in new fans if the brand is acted as the same product. People who don't like SD won't like ECW. So this 5th hour of WWE programming is really useless, from a monetary standpoint. And lildude, I don't get what you don't get. Making the product unique = new fans which = new (more) money. Like I said before, the way ECW is situated now, it shouldn't bring in more money, unless some people out there buy PPVs based on CM Punk...who could be on SD anyway (which he has been). And the Mysterio comment was an example. I could say Edge or Kane instead and the point would be more valid I suppose. But still, someone tell me how much extra money ECW, in it's current state, can rake in. Edit: Also, it's their fault for losing the Originals. I don't think any of them, except Ian Rotten since he no showed, quit.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jan 29, 2008 18:49:34 GMT -5
What don't I get? Your entire argument. What do you want them to do? Have ECW as a brand but act like it has nothing to do with the rest of the company? How can they NOT present it as a 3rd WWE brand? No matter how "unique" the product is, it's STILL a WWE product and thus would not be "unique" at all.
And it's the "Originals" fault that they don't have jobs right now. Sandman asked for his release, RVD didn't want to stay, Sabu was a major screwup on MULTIPLE occassions.
And people act like there are no "Originals" left. Let's see.....there's Tommy Dreamer who still has a job and just worked the Rumble. Balls isn't being used at the moment. That probably has something to do with him recently becoming a father. Stevie is injured. And Nunzio is still employed.
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Jan 29, 2008 18:50:27 GMT -5
I think that anyone who thinks the reason Vince is treating the ECW as he is because he 'can't have Heyman's brand be successful' is deluded and horribly naive. There is a reason so many people in the business call him a genius. I would guess that they are using ECW as they are now because it is a breeding ground for stars lost in the shuffle. ECW means that basically no-one needs to get lost in the shuffle, because if there isn't room on Raw/SD they can go to ECW, get repackaged and get pushed again. That potential for development means they are getting the absolute most out of their roster, and making sure everyone has a role to play. Basically, once they lost Show and Angle, and then lost the Originals, there wasn't any point in keeping ECW unique. It would be much better for them long term to use it to create new stars. I know people didn't like Lashley but he was able to climb the card quicker than if he was still stuck in the mid card on SD, because there is only one show a week, that means there can only be one main story going on at the top of the card, which means if you are an up and coming star you will be waiting around for too long for your chance, especially since WWE needs new stars. Also, having it as a 'hardcore' brand doesn't really serve any long term purpose, apart from to cater to the old school ECW fans, which isn't WWE's target audience anyway. They made the decision to structure ECW to be better, long term, for their current target audience instead of trying to make it good for the old school fans. It also isn't a 'third hour of SD'. The swap deal just allows ECW to pad out it's roster. It was stupidly small, and considering Smackdown was struggling with injuries, it made sense. It gives guys like Punk and Morrison more exposure. How much more exposure does the "regular" WWE need? 5 hours is a lot, and many complaints here is that we see the same stuff over and over. Why? The WWE is oversaturated. So what does a 5th hour really do? If they kept it as a seperate, unique brand it has the potential to be an awesome cash cow. Like I said before, how much more business can a 5th hour of the same product bring in? How many more buys? How much more merchandise? No one is really exclusive anymore, so Punk and Morrison are moot points now. Besides, like I said, they don't draw in new fans if the brand is acted as the same product. People who don't like SD won't like ECW. So this 5th hour of WWE programming is really useless, from a monetary standpoint. And lildude, I don't get what you don't get. Making the product unique = new fans which = new (more) money. Like I said before, the way ECW is situated now, it shouldn't bring in more money, unless some people out there buy PPVs based on CM Punk...who could be on SD anyway (which he has been). And the Mysterio comment was an example. I could say Edge or Kane instead and the point would be more valid I suppose. But still, someone tell me how much extra money ECW, in it's current state, can rake in. Edit: Also, it's their fault for losing the Originals. I don't think any of them, except Ian Rotten since he no showed, quit. It's not a 5th hour of the same programming though. It's one hour of newer stars that are gaining momentum and being pushed quicker than they would be if they were lost in the shuffle on other shows. It may not make, tangible, obvious money from that standpoint but in terms of creating stars it is easier for them and because they can use ECW to estbalish stars quicker it ensures a regular conveyer belt of talent meaning the roster is utilised to the max. When the current ECW stars go to Raw/SD, the ones they replace can come to ECW and get momentum again. Seriously, Vince is a brlliant businessman. Countless people in the industry say what makes him great is his ability to see the potential and the direction his shows/brands/wrestlers should go in for the long term. If he thought there was a better way to use ECW right now he would be doing it, and he would more than likely be right. This isn't just a random decision where he has suddenly decided to make ECW like the rest of the WWE in terms of style, it would be carefully considered with plenty of advice taken from people who know what they are doing more than any of us.
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Post by bob on Jan 29, 2008 19:11:49 GMT -5
there are two main problems with ECW: a lack of faces and overall a lack of talent
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