|
Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Mar 25, 2008 17:07:53 GMT -5
I forgot as well. Flair never ONCE touched mainstream media attention. SHouldnt the Greatest of all time have that in his resume? The Miz and the Extreme Expose have touched mainstream media. That's how much it counts
|
|
|
Post by strykerdarksilence on Mar 25, 2008 17:08:30 GMT -5
I was interested when I saw the thread title, then read the OP and winced.
Fine express your opinion, but do so in a way that doesn`t condemn people who agree with you, and at least try and use facts. Flair for a long period was the draw in NWA/WCW and built the business by putting guys over at the right times. He was the broomstick (wrestle a broomstick to *** matches) guy for a long time and retains respect in and out of the business.
|
|
|
Post by saggyboyflair on Mar 25, 2008 17:13:18 GMT -5
I was interested when I saw the thread title, then read the OP and winced. Fine express your opinion, but do so in a way that doesn`t condemn people who agree with you, and at least try and use facts. Flair for a long period was the draw in NWA/WCW and built the business by putting guys over at the right times. He was the broomstick (wrestle a broomstick to *** matches) guy for a long time and retains respect in and out of the business. There were other guys in the NWA and WCW that helped keep it on its feet and from the verge of bankrupcy other than Flair. Luger helped, the entire four horsemen, Magnum TA helped, Dusty definietely HELPED both in terms of an air character and through the creative aspects of creating new shows (great american bash etc.). Road Warriors and the list goes on! IT WASNT ALL FLAIR.
|
|
damna
Don Corleone
Sorry Anderson Silva, but Fedor is still number 1!
Posts: 1,819
|
Post by damna on Mar 25, 2008 17:17:00 GMT -5
I was interested when I saw the thread title, then read the OP and winced. Fine express your opinion, but do so in a way that doesn`t condemn people who agree with you, and at least try and use facts. Flair for a long period was the draw in NWA/WCW and built the business by putting guys over at the right times. He was the broomstick (wrestle a broomstick to *** matches) guy for a long time and retains respect in and out of the business. There were other guys in the NWA and WCW that helped keep it on its feet and from the verge of bankrupcy other than Flair. Luger helped, the entire four horsemen, Magnum TA helped, Dusty definietely HELPED both in terms of an air character and through the creative aspects of creating new shows (great american bash etc.). Road Warriors and the list goes on! IT WASNT ALL FLAIR. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't implying that Flair is on the same footing as Lex Luger.....
|
|
Jtre
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 561
|
Post by Jtre on Mar 25, 2008 17:19:03 GMT -5
You're in the minority pal. Not just any wrestler has entire arenas mimicking his catch phrase every time somebody does a chop. Flair may not have been the biggest draw of all time, but he damn sure was one of the most prolific draws. When people think of NWA or WCW, they think of Ric Flair. Ric Flair was one of the best in-ring performers of all time and arguably the best with promos. I don't hear anybody claiming any part of the United States is Hogan Country, Savage Country, HHH Country, Austin Country, or any other country other than Flair Country. Flair's legacy alone helps to establish him as one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. And honestly, Flair is working for the WWE. Why wouldn't they push him as the greatest of all time when they are counting on him to deliver a good HOF rating and a good WM buyrate? It's good marketing. And you can't sit there with a straight face and call Flair formulatic and not Hogan. Hogan was formulaic but his impact on the business as well selling arenas out NIGHT AFTER NIGHT(something Flair couldnt do btw) makes up for alot of that and overshadows his limited work in the ring. BTW. I may be the minority but that means im not sucked into believing that FLair is the greatest just because who.. Triple H and Shawn say so? Most of the fans today never watched one FLair match in his prime ever. Hogan has transcended generations much more than flair ever has. I dont care how many matches flair has had with these young guys. Hogan was a booed for a brief time but he reinvented himself and make better than ever. Hogan could wrestle until he is 70 too. Maybe not well but he could. For some reason people like to make this case. Because Flair has "wrestled" so long. I dont get it at all. Alot of people do not know who flair is today. Most kids and teens today know who the hell hogan is. RE: Clown's first paragraph There were a lot of arenas Hogan didn't sell out, too, at various points of his "immortal" career. Flair put an awful lot of asses in an awful lot of seats in his prime and beyond, so to say he couldn't draw is moronic. RE: Clown's second paragraph I'm not going to say the words of Triple H and Shawn Michaels should be taken as gospel, but to completely discount their opinions about a profession that both have excelled to the point where they themselves are considered among the very best ever would be foolish and disrespectful. Also, the idea that Hogan could wrestle until he's 70 at any level approaching that of Flair now is ludicrous. Hogan will be lucky if he is walking and wiping his own ass at 70, let alone getting in the ring and going 20 minutes with someone one-third his age. RE: Clown's third paragraph People who are wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. People who are not wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. Is he as famous as Hogan among people who don't follow wrestling? No. Sugar Ray Robinson is not as famous among non-boxing fans as his two later namesakes, Sugars Ray Leonard and Shane Mosley. Ask a boxing historian or expert who is the better pound-for-pound fighter of the three and it won't be either of the latter two. Finally, you have spent most of your posts in this thread talking about today's fans who hail Flair as great have probably never seen him in his prime. When you bash his ring work, you listed, among others, Nick Bockwinkle, Dynamite Kid and Lou Thesz. Being 24, how much of their work did you see first hand? Hell, how much of Thesz's body of work have you been exposed to at all? Since the answer to both questions, if honest, will range from "very little" to "none," your comments on that matter are pretty hypocritical and pointless.
|
|
|
Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Mar 25, 2008 17:20:10 GMT -5
There were other guys in the NWA and WCW that helped keep it on its feet and from the verge of bankrupcy other than Flair. Luger helped, the entire four horsemen, Magnum TA helped, Dusty definietely HELPED both in terms of an air character and through the creative aspects of creating new shows (great american bash etc.). Road Warriors and the list goes on! IT WASNT ALL FLAIR. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't implying that Flair is on the same footing as Lex Luger..... But it wasn't just flair!! there was THE DOG!! ROADBLOCK!! GLACIER!! KWEE WEE!! THE MAESTRO!! FLAIRS A GLORY HOG!!
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 25, 2008 17:21:46 GMT -5
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't implying that Flair is on the same footing as Lex Luger..... But it wasn't just flair!! there was THE DOG!! ROADBLOCK!! GLACIER!! KWEE WEE!! THE MAESTRO!! FLAIRS A GLORY HOG!! RALPHUS!!!!!
|
|
damna
Don Corleone
Sorry Anderson Silva, but Fedor is still number 1!
Posts: 1,819
|
Post by damna on Mar 25, 2008 17:22:20 GMT -5
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't implying that Flair is on the same footing as Lex Luger..... But it wasn't just flair!! there was THE DOG!! ROADBLOCK!! GLACIER!! KWEE WEE!! THE MAESTRO!! FLAIRS A GLORY HOG!! WHAT ABOUT BEFORE THAT..THERE WAS OZ! VINNIE VEGAS! PN NEWS! BIG JOSH! ROBOCOP!
|
|
|
Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Mar 25, 2008 17:22:32 GMT -5
How is it idiotic pal?? Cause its the truth? What exactly was he the greatest at?? Not the greatest worker, Not a HUGE draw, How does that make him the greatest?? THought so I consider him the greatest of all time because he has stayed relevant and over and entertaining for 35 straight years without one time fizzling out and becoming stale. No one can say that, really. Not even Hogan (who everyone started booing in 1994 because it was so played). I've gone into almost every Flair match ever and marked. He's repetitive, I agree, but in his case, like a funny movie, sometimes you mark for that kind off stuff. You see it coming, wait for it, then explode when you get it. It's been 3 decades, yet, I still love to see him take two steps and fall on his face. It's smurfing great. The guy is and has always been pure entertainment. I care about what he says. I care when he wins and loses. I just care about Flair. And that's fair to Flair. Au contrare? Well, despair*. Wooooooooooooooooooo! * I ran out of words that rhymed with Flair.Agree to a huge, massive extent. Flair, last night in his 4th decade as a wrestler, delivered what was up there with some of the best promos we have seen on Raw. When he started stomping on his jacket and getting worked up, if you didn't feel the electricitiy, even sitting there watching at home then I can't believe it. He's amazing. 16 time world champ. But it's not just that. It's the fact that he is indeed entertaining after 30 something years in this business, and people still love to see him. Hogan got stale, he re-invented himself, but that isn't the point. This isn't an argument agianst Hogan, this is pro-Flair. Naitch has pretty much stayed absolutely entertaining in the same role for an incredible amount of time, he has put on great matches (all matches are formulaic in one way or another, even Benoit's, Brets' etc) and even now, when most guys would be putting their feet up at home retired, delivers an absolutely KILLER promo. He is undoubtably one of the greatest of all time. Why do you think so many people in the business think so? Why do you think entire arenas across the country give it a 'woooooo!' even if a diva or jobber gives a chop? And why saggyboyflair, do you seem to moan about absolutely everything?
|
|
ilggant
Unicron
Run...
Posts: 2,666
|
Post by ilggant on Mar 25, 2008 17:22:46 GMT -5
Mr. Saggyboyflair, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. Nice reference I knew it referenced something, but what does it reference exactly?
|
|
|
Post by Next Level was WRONG on Mar 25, 2008 17:23:19 GMT -5
Granted, his matches cane be formulaic and not ultra-realistic. (flip-bump-into-the-corner, run-to-opposite-turnbuckle, I'm looking at you.)
However, he has always been able to bring matches that can get people involved and put on a hell of a show without a variety of opponents. I mean, he did pull watchable matches out Giant Gonzales and Vince Russo. Not to mention when he was with workers who could go, magic happened. ie, Steamboat, Terry Funk, Sting, Brian Pillman, Harley Race, etc.
I have to say, the fact that he didn't have a chiseled physique, lost the title numerous times (which is kind of inevitable for everyone) and didn't have a ass-load of crapty merchandise with his face on it are kinda silly criteria to base a wrestlers standing around.
He's not the GOAT (probably not even the chicken), but he is worth all the admiartion that they are giving him.
|
|
damna
Don Corleone
Sorry Anderson Silva, but Fedor is still number 1!
Posts: 1,819
|
Post by damna on Mar 25, 2008 17:24:05 GMT -5
I knew it referenced something, but what does it reference exactly? Billy Madison
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 17:24:40 GMT -5
I knew it referenced something, but what does it reference exactly? Billy Madison .... O'DOYLE RULES!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Bullhead on Mar 25, 2008 17:24:48 GMT -5
Damn. Maybe I shouldn't have agreed with him.
|
|
|
Post by Slammywinner on Mar 25, 2008 17:24:59 GMT -5
Ric Flair is the GOAT because I saw him eating a tin can behind the arena. I asked him to leave and he just looked at me and kept chewing...
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 25, 2008 17:26:35 GMT -5
O'DOYLE RULES!! O'DOYLE RULES!! O'DOYLE RULES!! *car goes over the cliff, explodes*
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 25, 2008 17:31:44 GMT -5
I'll put it in terms of a baseball analogy. In baseball you have what are called 'five tool' players- which are guys that excel at hitting for average, hitting for power, baserunning skills and speed, throwing ability, and fielding abilities.. essentially your major skills for the game. There may be players that top them in one category or another, but a five tool guy is good to great in all areas, and a more complete player.
For the purposes of the analogy, let's say wrestling's five tools are working a match, talking on the microphone, charisma, psychology and drawing power. Have there been wrestlers better in one or more of these areas than Flair? It'd depend on who you ask, and you might get into splitting hairs there, but sure. But even if you don't like the guy, you have to admit, that he is good to great in all five areas.
So, in my opinion, Ric Flair is the greatest 'five tool' wrestler of all time.. which if it doesn't put him at the very top of wrestling Mt. Olympus, he's def. in the pantheon.
|
|
|
Post by The Harbinger of Tragedy on Mar 25, 2008 17:33:57 GMT -5
I want to jump in on that comment about how he lost the world championship 16 times. I would definitely prefer someone who lost their titles to someone like an early Michaels, who had one of the worst rates for putting someone over for the title he was holding. (i.e. - intercontinental, tag team, and even WWF championships. wow. all three.)
I would also prefer someone who didn't overly politic, and I'm looking in Hogan's direction on this one.
|
|
Johnny Danger (Godz)
Wade Wilson
loves him some cavity searches
Lord Xeen's going to kill you.
Posts: 27,736
|
Post by Johnny Danger (Godz) on Mar 25, 2008 17:34:02 GMT -5
"Hes had mutiple runs as world champ and has won the belt i dunno what 16-17 times?? Thats means has LOST the belt that many times too."
Uh, you do know wrestling is fake, right?
|
|
|
Post by saggyboyflair on Mar 25, 2008 17:36:02 GMT -5
Hogan was formulaic but his impact on the business as well selling arenas out NIGHT AFTER NIGHT(something Flair couldnt do btw) makes up for alot of that and overshadows his limited work in the ring. BTW. I may be the minority but that means im not sucked into believing that FLair is the greatest just because who.. Triple H and Shawn say so? Most of the fans today never watched one FLair match in his prime ever. Hogan has transcended generations much more than flair ever has. I dont care how many matches flair has had with these young guys. Hogan was a booed for a brief time but he reinvented himself and make better than ever. Hogan could wrestle until he is 70 too. Maybe not well but he could. For some reason people like to make this case. Because Flair has "wrestled" so long. I dont get it at all. Alot of people do not know who flair is today. Most kids and teens today know who the hell hogan is. RE: Clown's first paragraph There were a lot of arenas Hogan didn't sell out, too, at various points of his "immortal" career. Flair put an awful lot of asses in an awful lot of seats in his prime and beyond, so to say he couldn't draw is moronic. RE: Clown's second paragraph I'm not going to say the words of Triple H and Shawn Michaels should be taken as gospel, but to completely discount their opinions about a profession that both have excelled to the point where they themselves are considered among the very best ever would be foolish and disrespectful. Also, the idea that Hogan could wrestle until he's 70 at any level approaching that of Flair now is ludicrous. Hogan will be lucky if he is walking and wiping his own ass at 70, let alone getting in the ring and going 20 minutes with someone one-third his age. RE: Clown's third paragraph People who are wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. People who are not wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. Is he as famous as Hogan among people who don't follow wrestling? No. Sugar Ray Robinson is not as famous among non-boxing fans as his two later namesakes, Sugars Ray Leonard and Shane Mosley. Ask a boxing historian or expert who is the better pound-for-pound fighter of the three and it won't be either of the latter two. Finally, you have spent most of your posts in this thread talking about today's fans who hail Flair as great have probably never seen him in his prime. When you bash his ring work, you listed, among others, Nick Bockwinkle, Dynamite Kid and Lou Thesz. Being 24, how much of their work did you see first hand? Hell, how much of Thesz's body of work have you been exposed to at all? Since the answer to both questions, if honest, will range from "very little" to "none," your comments on that matter are pretty hypocritical and pointless. Hey there brainchild. I didnt say Flair COULDNT DRAW. I just said Flair wasnt a HUGE DRAW. Flair could wrestle until he is 70?? He can barely move now at not even 60. Vince looks better at 62 than flair at 58. Btw. Youtube AND old wrestling videos exist, you can go back and educate yourself of some lou thesz, nick bockwinkle matches and dynamite kid against Tiger Mask in Japan. Clearly, they were better workers than Flair.
|
|