wwerules60
El Dandy
"Bring what? a vomit bag? a fig newton?"
Posts: 8,999
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Post by wwerules60 on Mar 25, 2008 17:42:08 GMT -5
RE: Clown's first paragraph There were a lot of arenas Hogan didn't sell out, too, at various points of his "immortal" career. Flair put an awful lot of asses in an awful lot of seats in his prime and beyond, so to say he couldn't draw is moronic. RE: Clown's second paragraph I'm not going to say the words of Triple H and Shawn Michaels should be taken as gospel, but to completely discount their opinions about a profession that both have excelled to the point where they themselves are considered among the very best ever would be foolish and disrespectful. Also, the idea that Hogan could wrestle until he's 70 at any level approaching that of Flair now is ludicrous. Hogan will be lucky if he is walking and wiping his own ass at 70, let alone getting in the ring and going 20 minutes with someone one-third his age. RE: Clown's third paragraph People who are wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. People who are not wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. Is he as famous as Hogan among people who don't follow wrestling? No. Sugar Ray Robinson is not as famous among non-boxing fans as his two later namesakes, Sugars Ray Leonard and Shane Mosley. Ask a boxing historian or expert who is the better pound-for-pound fighter of the three and it won't be either of the latter two. Finally, you have spent most of your posts in this thread talking about today's fans who hail Flair as great have probably never seen him in his prime. When you bash his ring work, you listed, among others, Nick Bockwinkle, Dynamite Kid and Lou Thesz. Being 24, how much of their work did you see first hand? Hell, how much of Thesz's body of work have you been exposed to at all? Since the answer to both questions, if honest, will range from "very little" to "none," your comments on that matter are pretty hypocritical and pointless. Hey there brainchild. I didnt say Flair COULDNT DRAW. I just said Flair wasnt a HUGE DRAW. Flair could wrestle until he is 70?? He can barely move now at not even 60. Vince looks better at 62 than flair at 58. Btw. Youtube AND old wrestling videos exist, you can go back and educate yourself of some lou thesz, nick bockwinkle matches and dynamite kid against Tiger Mask in Japan. Clearly, they were better workers than Flair. To me as a fan being the greatest of all time doesn't really depend on how much he has drawn. It doesn't affect me. But Flair being a great entertainer and entertaining me does and he has entertained me a lot.
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damna
Don Corleone
Sorry Anderson Silva, but Fedor is still number 1!
Posts: 1,819
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Post by damna on Mar 25, 2008 17:42:42 GMT -5
RE: Clown's first paragraph There were a lot of arenas Hogan didn't sell out, too, at various points of his "immortal" career. Flair put an awful lot of asses in an awful lot of seats in his prime and beyond, so to say he couldn't draw is moronic. RE: Clown's second paragraph I'm not going to say the words of Triple H and Shawn Michaels should be taken as gospel, but to completely discount their opinions about a profession that both have excelled to the point where they themselves are considered among the very best ever would be foolish and disrespectful. Also, the idea that Hogan could wrestle until he's 70 at any level approaching that of Flair now is ludicrous. Hogan will be lucky if he is walking and wiping his own ass at 70, let alone getting in the ring and going 20 minutes with someone one-third his age. RE: Clown's third paragraph People who are wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. People who are not wrestling fans know who Ric Flair is. Is he as famous as Hogan among people who don't follow wrestling? No. Sugar Ray Robinson is not as famous among non-boxing fans as his two later namesakes, Sugars Ray Leonard and Shane Mosley. Ask a boxing historian or expert who is the better pound-for-pound fighter of the three and it won't be either of the latter two. Finally, you have spent most of your posts in this thread talking about today's fans who hail Flair as great have probably never seen him in his prime. When you bash his ring work, you listed, among others, Nick Bockwinkle, Dynamite Kid and Lou Thesz. Being 24, how much of their work did you see first hand? Hell, how much of Thesz's body of work have you been exposed to at all? Since the answer to both questions, if honest, will range from "very little" to "none," your comments on that matter are pretty hypocritical and pointless. Hey there brainchild. I didnt say Flair COULDNT DRAW. I just said Flair wasnt a HUGE DRAW. Flair could wrestle until he is 70?? He can barely move now at not even 60. Vince looks better at 62 than flair at 58. Btw. Youtube AND old wrestling videos exist, you can go back and educate yourself of some lou thesz, nick bockwinkle matches and dynamite kid against Tiger Mask in Japan. Clearly, they were better workers than Flair. Vince hasn't spent the past 40 years in the ring night in and night out.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 25, 2008 17:44:11 GMT -5
How could a goat be a horseman then?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 25, 2008 17:46:20 GMT -5
I'm fairly sure we're big boys and girls and can state our opinions without resorting to namecalling, so let's refrain from that gang.
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Post by tarheelfan on Mar 25, 2008 17:48:15 GMT -5
I have watched wrestling since the late 70s so I have seen the vast majority of Flairs career through the years. And to this day when the topic comes up of who the greatest two overall wrestlers have been since 1980 (roughly 25 years) - most observers say without hesitation Hogan and Flair.
Hogan is of course bigger noone disputes that but everyone knows that Flair was the biggest name for several decades outside of the WWE. When one thinks of the WWE they think of Hogan and when one thinks of NWA/WCW they think of Flair.
Guys like Sting, Austin, Rock, Brett Hart and Michaels, etc. were great in their own rights but at the end of the day the two main guys overall the past two decades from 1980 to 2000 where Hogan and Flair. Simple as that. Both these guys had a longevity and were MAIN EVENTERS for almost two decades.
Name me two other wrestlers since 1980 that on a whole have been MAIN EVENTERS for two FULL DECADES.
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Post by saggyboyflair on Mar 25, 2008 17:52:00 GMT -5
I have watched wrestling since the late 70s so I have seen the vast majority of Flairs career through the years. And to this day when the topic comes up of who the greatest two overall wrestlers have been since 1980 (roughly 25 years) - most observers say without hesitation Hogan and Flair. Hogan is of course bigger noone disputes that but everyone knows that Flair was the biggest name for several decades outside of the WWE. When one thinks of the WWE they think of Hogan and when one thinks of NWA/WCW they think of Flair. Guys like Sting, Austin, Rock, Brett Hart and Michaels, etc. were great in their own rights but at the end of the day the two main guys overall the past two decades from 1980 to 2000 where Hogan and Flair. Simple as that. Both these guys had a longevity and were MAIN EVENTERS for almost two decades. Name me two other wrestlers since 1980 that on a whole have been MAIN EVENTERS for two FULL DECADES. But... the business was around way before then. Guys like Hackendschmidt, Jim Londos, Ed "strangler" Lewis, Frank Gotch, were Huge draws in their own right. Thesz can be considered right up there to in terms of a long term draw. Nature Boy Buddy Rogers as well
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Post by tarheelfan on Mar 25, 2008 17:55:56 GMT -5
I have watched wrestling since the late 70s so I have seen the vast majority of Flairs career through the years. And to this day when the topic comes up of who the greatest two overall wrestlers have been since 1980 (roughly 25 years) - most observers say without hesitation Hogan and Flair. Hogan is of course bigger noone disputes that but everyone knows that Flair was the biggest name for several decades outside of the WWE. When one thinks of the WWE they think of Hogan and when one thinks of NWA/WCW they think of Flair. Guys like Sting, Austin, Rock, Brett Hart and Michaels, etc. were great in their own rights but at the end of the day the two main guys overall the past two decades from 1980 to 2000 where Hogan and Flair. Simple as that. Both these guys had a longevity and were MAIN EVENTERS for almost two decades. Name me two other wrestlers since 1980 that on a whole have been MAIN EVENTERS for two FULL DECADES. But... the business was around way before then. Guys like Hackendschmidt, Jim Londos, Ed "strangler" Lewis, Frank Gotch, were Huge draws in their own right. Thesz can be considered right up there to in terms of a long term draw. Nature Boy Buddy Rogers as well You make good points but notice I said since 1980 when the nature of the business changed. As wrestlers I agree those guys were better than Flair or even Hogan technically wise but let's be honest most younger fans today think that the 1980s were ancient and that the early 90s were old school. But anyway if you start from 1980 when wrestling evolved than Flair could be considered the GOAT by many. (Especially the ones that dislike Hoagn and like Flair better)
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Post by bigdaddyfive on Mar 25, 2008 17:59:27 GMT -5
Whilst this may or may not settle the debate, allow me to chip in with a tale of the effect of Ric Flair.
During a RAW house show in Sheffield, England in about 2004 (which I was at) he wrestled with Batista against Benoit and Edge. He came out to a decent pop, nothing like that received by HHH or HBK for example. After all, most casual fans in Northern England haven't heard of Ric Flair or at least heard of him in the same breath as Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold Steve Austin.
Yet during the match, his antics and general wrestling as a whole served to get the fans more into that match than any other on the card. People around me were laughing, wooing and visibly struck at the things this seemingly saggy O.A.P. was doing.
When you compare this to other wrestlers, draws or not, Flair entertained like no other that night and that match became my favourite live wrestling moment. The guy seems to bring something with him to a live crowd that even excels all the televised work. God knows what the crowd was like at the TLC match between him and Edge a few year back.
Greatest of all time? There will never be any definitive answer to this question in a world of six billion+ minds (most of which probably don't care I'd guess)
All I know is that night, his antics made me almost feel like a mark-y kid again.
Just my two-pence worth.
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Post by tarheelfan on Mar 25, 2008 18:02:21 GMT -5
Whilst this may or may not settle the debate, allow me to chip in with a tale of the effect of Ric Flair. During a RAW house show in Sheffield, England in about 2004 (which I was at) he wrestled with Batista against Benoit and Edge. He came out to a decent pop, nothing like that received by HHH or HBK for example. After all, most casual fans in Northern England haven't heard of Ric Flair or at least heard of him in the same breath as Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold Steve Austin. Yet during the match, his antics and general wrestling as a whole served to get the fans more into that match than any other on the card. People around me were laughing, wooing and visibly struck at the things this seemingly saggy O.A.P. was doing. When you compare this to other wrestlers, draws or not, Flair entertained like no other that night and that match became my favourite live wrestling moment. The guy seems to bring something with him to a live crowd that even excels all the televised work. God knows what the crowd was like at the TLC match between him and Edge a few year back. Greatest of all time? There will never be any definitive answer to this question in a world of six billion+ minds (most of which probably don't care I'd guess) All I know is that night, his antics made me almost feel like a mark-y kid again. Just my two-pence worth. Flair may have been the most charasmatic talker on the mic. By the way cool avator- isn't that Garak from Deep Space Nine?
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Post by bigdaddyfive on Mar 25, 2008 18:03:04 GMT -5
Oh, and if I catch anyone cheating, especially with my wife, who is a dirty, dirty tramp, then I am going to snap.
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Post by bigdaddyfive on Mar 25, 2008 18:06:43 GMT -5
Flair may have been the most charasmatic talker on the mic. By the way cool avator- isn't that Garak from Deep Space Nine? Cheers, it is Garak, in the greatest Star Trek episode of all time no less. I thought when people mentioned "GOAT" it meant "Garak's Only Avatar Tribute" but as always, I am mistaken
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Post by tarheelfan on Mar 25, 2008 18:07:55 GMT -5
Flair may have been the most charasmatic talker on the mic. By the way cool avator- isn't that Garak from Deep Space Nine? Cheers, it is Garak, in the greatest Star Trek episode of all time no less. I thought when people mentioned "GOAT" it meant "Garak's Only Avatar Tribute" but as always, I am mistaken I thought it was Garak. Deep Space Nine was a great show.
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Post by Threadkiller [Classic] on Mar 25, 2008 18:09:40 GMT -5
^Yes, but was it the GOAT?
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Post by tarheelfan on Mar 25, 2008 18:12:23 GMT -5
^Yes, but was it the GOAT? Maybe the GOAT Sci-Fi show
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Mac
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 16,502
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Post by Mac on Mar 25, 2008 18:12:41 GMT -5
Greatest of All Time doesnt have any mathmatical formula to prove or disprove it, so its always a matter of opinion. That being said, I can see how if we all had been given a group of 50 of the greatest wrestlers to debate why/why not they are the greatest of all time I'd say the guy who draws the Flair card would have the easiest chance at proving his case.
Flair did it and did it well for a long time. He got Ricky Morton over as a legit threat to his title. He worked with Barry Windham coming off being a mid card tag guy in the WWF and put together a couple of oustanding matches. If Flair was in the main event the match was going to be good, and you could say that from any match he was in from the time he won his first title right up until probably 94 before he became a little more hit/miss.
He was mega over as a heel, drawing face heat, being the leader of whats widely considered the greatest single wrestling group ever (The 4 Horsemen) a group that set the standard that was copied many a time over since then.
Flair never had any trouble going into a terratory, flopping around and making the local guy look like Superman and yet still give off the aura of a seemingly unbeatable champion.
Look at Flairs work when he went down and worked in Texas against the Von Erichs, he looked like a clown getting beaten senseless by everybody from Fritz to Mike. And when he came back they'd bang out Texas Stadium again.
How many times did they put Ric Flair in the ring with a "nobody" and have them come out a "somebody"? Even when Flair won a match against the "Up and Comer" the guy Flair beat came out looking like a future world champion more often than not.
Flair helped make a lot of stars out of non-stars and make a lot of midcarders look like world beaters. And I think that also adds to his legacy.
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Post by bigdaddyfive on Mar 25, 2008 18:13:39 GMT -5
^Yes, but was it the GOAT? I'll bet someone has a better Garak avatar tribute somewhere... and someone will probably start a post re: this and paste Garak's head onto a goat and the person who started the thread will say that Garak was never a huge draw on DS9. *Exhales*
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Post by tarheelfan on Mar 25, 2008 18:17:32 GMT -5
^Yes, but was it the GOAT? I'll bet someone has a better Garak avatar tribute somewhere... and someone will probably start a post re: this and paste Garak's head onto a goat and the person who started the thread will say that Garak was never a huge draw on DS9. *Exhales* Garak was not a perinniel main eventer or huge draw on DS9 but similar to a lot of wrestlers that are not main eventers who have had great matches he had some of the most memorable episodes on DS9 that are classics and considered some of the best DS9 episodes. Garak was sort of the Ricky Steamboat of DS9. ;D
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Post by Just "Dan" is Fine, Thank You on Mar 25, 2008 18:20:15 GMT -5
No one but me seems to notice this. The extent of OP's research is always the last DVD he watched.
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Post by bigdaddyfive on Mar 25, 2008 18:23:11 GMT -5
I'll bet someone has a better Garak avatar tribute somewhere... and someone will probably start a post re: this and paste Garak's head onto a goat and the person who started the thread will say that Garak was never a huge draw on DS9. *Exhales* Garak was not a perinniel main eventer or huge draw on DS9 but similar to a lot of wrestlers that are not main eventers who have had great matches he had some of the most memorable episodes on DS9 that are classics and considered some of the best DS9 episodes. Garak was sort of the Ricky Steamboat of DS9. ;D Damn you, he drew I tells ya, he DREW! When did Sisko put anyone over, huh?
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Post by bigdaddyfive on Mar 25, 2008 18:24:45 GMT -5
No one but me seems to notice this. The extent of OP's research is always the last DVD he watched. In that case, the GOAT has to be Jenna Jameson
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