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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 7, 2008 8:06:30 GMT -5
It seems nowadays that I can't go for a certain length of time without people frowning on the idea of a mopey, emotional, or just plain tormented protagonist, with folks always citing that said character needs to "man up" and stop whining.
Bah. I say that angsters need more love.
I'd like to use this as a appreciation thread for your favorite characters with daddy issues, tragic pasts, or just anyone questioning their fate/new abilities and whatnot.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Jul 7, 2008 8:21:13 GMT -5
That would be spider-man then?
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Post by Baixo Astral on Jul 7, 2008 8:27:58 GMT -5
 "WAHWAHWAH GUNBLADE BLAHBLAHBLAH RINOA KVETCHKVETCHKVETCH SEIFER STOLE MY BOTTLE WHEN I WAS A KID BITCHBITCHBITCH GONNA PAINT TEARDROPS ON MY CHEEKS AND MAKE A YOUTUBE VID ABOUT MY PATHETIC LIFE" |
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Jay Peas 42
El Dandy
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Jul 7, 2008 8:33:21 GMT -5
All heroes get mopey phases. Even mighty Achillies did in the Illiad, and if that's not an archtype, I don't know who is? And he probably existed to boot, something you can't say for random anime character, or the Epic of Gilgamesh. The problem is that hero goes through a period of self doubt, however he overcomes and, becomes a Champion ready to give the St. Crispen's Day Speech. He doesn't wallow in it for the entire story (Cloud from AC, I'm looking in your general direction.)
However, there's also a cultural context here. The Existential crisis is the major theme of all 20th century literature (The 20th Century started in 1914, we still have 6 more years) and heroes emeshed in self doubt are popular, because our civilization is emeshed in self-doubt. So criticism of these heroes should just be seen as a antithesis of a larger thesis.
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J is Justice
Wade Wilson
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Hi.
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Post by J is Justice on Jul 7, 2008 8:37:09 GMT -5
"WAHWAHWAH GUNBLADE BLAHBLAHBLAH RINOA KVETCHKVETCHKVETCH SEIFER STOLE MY BOTTLE WHEN I WAS A KID BITCHBITCHBITCH GONNA PAINT TEARDROPS ON MY CHEEKS AND MAKE A YOUTUBE VID ABOUT MY PATHETIC LIFE" Whatever. |
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Phosphor Glow
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Is a real girl!
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Post by Phosphor Glow on Jul 7, 2008 9:11:42 GMT -5
I myself am a huge fan of angsty heroes. I dunno, I just think it works. I guess it comes from getting into them during my super angsty period too...and it just kinda stuck. If you don't like 'em, that's fine...but I do.
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Post by IsaacMKII on Jul 7, 2008 9:21:13 GMT -5
To be fair to Squall, if he were real, he'd beat the shit out of all of us. Combined.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Jul 7, 2008 9:53:43 GMT -5
Are there any angst ridden villains though?
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 7, 2008 10:25:59 GMT -5
Are there any angst ridden villains though?  |
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Post by gsguy on Jul 7, 2008 10:29:26 GMT -5
Are there any angst ridden villains though? I was going to mention him. |
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Jay Peas 42
El Dandy
Totally flips out ALL the time.
Is looking forward to a Nation of Domination Kwannza Special.
Posts: 8,329
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Jul 7, 2008 10:39:48 GMT -5
Are there any angst ridden villains though? In application, not too many. Remember, in most epics, the Hero is the main character, and the Villian serves as little more than a foil, a symbol, and less a person than an hinderance. The amount of time it takes to characterize a guy you're not supposed to like in the first place isn't something most writters are willing to do. But basically, it demands on the complexity and reality of the work. I suppose King Claudius. |
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Jul 7, 2008 11:06:05 GMT -5
Are there any angst ridden villains though? Is Anakin Skywalker considered a Hero or a Villain? Even if you split him into Anakin/Vader, Vader I believe would be almost the definition of angst. [vader] nooooooooooooooooooooooo [/vader] |
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Jay Peas 42
El Dandy
Totally flips out ALL the time.
Is looking forward to a Nation of Domination Kwannza Special.
Posts: 8,329
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Jul 7, 2008 11:31:46 GMT -5
Are there any angst ridden villains though? Is Anakin Skywalker considered a Hero or a Villain? Even if you split him into Anakin/Vader, Vader I believe would be almost the definition of angst. [vader] nooooooooooooooooooooooo [/vader] Technically the Emperor is the Villian of Star Wars. But the story is about Anikan's fall and redemption, so yes. |
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Lupin the Third
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Post by Lupin the Third on Jul 7, 2008 13:48:18 GMT -5
 Yes, he may not be very angsty or mopey, he does have a tragic past. In whatever story is told, he sees his family die at the hands of a crime lord. He goes to the police for help, only to see that they are corrupt due to being in league with the crime lord. Instead of moping about his problem, he decides to take it into his own hands, killing the crime lord and his cronies. But he decides to continue his vigilante justice, to rid the world of serial killers, rapists, etc. As he said at the end of the movie, "Frank Castle is dead. Call me The Punisher." |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 7, 2008 13:59:55 GMT -5
/\ I wouldn't say that the Punisher is Ansty at all really. he doesn't dwell on his misfortunes, he goes and blows some bitches up instead.
writing an angsty hero isn't a bad thing. the problem relies entirely on whether or not he has a GOOD reason to be that way (e.g. Cloud Strife, enduring constant Mind Rape and having his girlfriend [?] killed in front of him is a good reason. the other kids not sharing the ball with Squall Leonhart is not). and even then, the angst can't be overpowering or the only thing that the character ever does or else it goes into wangst terrritory and no matter how good a reason it is, it just gets annoying (e.g. Wonder Girl's constant "MY BOYFRIEND IS DEAD WAAAAAA!" stuff in Teen Titans).
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Push R Truth on Jul 7, 2008 14:09:19 GMT -5
(e.g. Wonder Girl's constant "MY BOYFRIEND IS DEAD WAAAAAA!" stuff in Teen Titans). I hate that crap. The best part in most crappy horror movies, is when that person gets eviscerated and I no longer have to listen to that cheap and easy sympathy writing. The bad part, is that sometimes those people survive  |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 7, 2008 14:20:37 GMT -5
yeah. tfor me, the Wonder Girl stuff is especially egregious because she's on a team with Robin, whose lost not just one but two of his best friends, both of his parents and his step-mother, and his last girlfriend in more than a little egregious circumstances (which, to be fair, have been retconned away) and he handles it a hell of a lot better.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 7, 2008 14:28:49 GMT -5
All heroes get mopey phases. Even mighty Achillies did in the Illiad, and if that's not an archtype, I don't know who is? And he probably existed to boot, something you can't say for random anime character, or the Epic of Gilgamesh. The problem is that hero goes through a period of self doubt, however he overcomes and, becomes a Champion ready to give the St. Crispen's Day Speech. He doesn't wallow in it for the entire story (Cloud from AC, I'm looking in your general direction.) However, there's also a cultural context here. The Existential crisis is the major theme of all 20th century literature (The 20th Century started in 1914, we still have 6 more years) and heroes emeshed in self doubt are popular, because our civilization is emeshed in self-doubt. So criticism of these heroes should just be seen as a antithesis of a larger thesis. Point well taken; however, I would argue that there is a clear difference between heroes that go through periods of self-doubt and "angst", and heroes that are made to appear angsty in what is essentially a cop-out so that the writers don't have to get too deep into expounding on the character. I really frown on a lot of what they do in video games and some animes (no, Japan is not the lone offender, here, but I'll single the style out for the time being) when they heap angst on their hero, but basically do it to save them from really having to develop his character. Instead, his dark clothes and brooding nature carry the character all the way through, with no need to let him change or adapt. It shows more depth to a hero character when he/she is able to overcome whatever it is that is hurting them, and take the bull by the horns. Again, as you said, the archetype is there for a hero who goes through self-doubt, who goes through emotionally turbulent times...but the way it gets abused these days is more a sign of laziness than anything else. |
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Post by Cap'n Crud on Jul 7, 2008 14:33:24 GMT -5
The problem is it's just been done to death. I'm sorry but I watch movies and TV to get away from my problems for a while and turn my brain off, not listen to some dime store emo prattlin' on and on about how much his life sucks. Plus I kinda got tired of comics in the mid `90s because it all became big frowny faced guys with giant (my dick is tiny so I'm compensating for it) guns or swords.
Hell I got tired of Rescue Me too. It's like geez if that schlemeel was a real fireman New York would have been a whole island full of cinders after September 11th because Tommy Gavin would be too busy cutting his wrist and crying about how much it rains in Manchester to go save the city.
Seriously if your life sucks do something about it. Get a new job, go on a diet, move away from where you live now, go on a vacation or roadtrip somewhere anything but sitting around emoing about your problems.
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livetowin
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Post by livetowin on Jul 7, 2008 14:45:14 GMT -5
Uhm....I think of Batman as angsty, and I like him. I also think of Hayden Christenson as an angsty character in the first three prequels, but I hated him. It all depends what happens with the character, or how well it's written, or how it's even acted out. Duh.  |
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