Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 23, 2008 12:16:28 GMT -5
Hes going to have to keep repeating himself as long as Vince keeps putting the same crap out there. Yes, because Dixie's product isn't a joke and a half. The whole wrestling industry is stagnant, somewhat. Blaming Vince alone is kind of stupid, since it's not like he's the sole employee of WWE, TNA, ROH, and every other wrestling company. Everyone shares a part of the blame.
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krzykraka
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Post by krzykraka on Oct 23, 2008 12:18:42 GMT -5
smurf him anyone can sit at a smurfing computer and bitch, we do it everyday. This prick has the ability to do something to fix said broken industry and doesn't smurf him. I disagree. How does he have the ability to fix the current product? He doesnt even work for the WWE or TNA, even when he was employed by the WWE, he wasn't fairly allowed to use all of his ideas. IMHO, given complete control of creative writing, he could have a very entertaining and watchable product within 3 months.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 23, 2008 12:21:03 GMT -5
smurf him anyone can sit at a smurfing computer and bitch, we do it everyday. This prick has the ability to do something to fix said broken industry and doesn't smurf him. I disagree. How does he have the ability to fix the current product? He doesnt even work for the WWE or TNA, even when he was employed by the WWE, he wasn't fairly allowed to use all of his ideas. IMHO, given complete control of creative writing, he could have a very entertaining and watchable product within 3 months. Ehhh. Maybe. I think it'd take longer. Like I said before, this isn't the minors. Three shows is a lot to write for, and changes can't be made as quickly, since you run a serious risk of alienating fans.
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Hanzo
Dennis Stamp
"You want Cena to go to ECW?!"
Posts: 4,666
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Post by Hanzo on Oct 23, 2008 12:21:03 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I really, really liked his idea for the December to Dismember Elimination Chamber match.
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Post by Loki on Oct 23, 2008 12:23:21 GMT -5
Hes going to have to keep repeating himself as long as Vince keeps putting the same crap out there. Yeah, but it's a lot easier sitting at home and ranting about how boring and stale the business is... Why isn't he out there to grace the world of pro wrestling with his priceless input, and turning it around in a matter of months? I've lost a lot of respect for Heyman. He's the old-timer who had his lucky break and he has been living off his past accomplishments ever since, while relentlessly bitching and moaning without bringing a single idea to the table for the longest time. The product is stale because there's nothing much to say at the moment that hasn't been said and done already. Several times. Unless Heyman has something constructive to say, he'd better keep his yap shut. But apparently the choir of Pavlov's Dogs he's preching still eating up every single word...
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Hanzo
Dennis Stamp
"You want Cena to go to ECW?!"
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Post by Hanzo on Oct 23, 2008 12:29:19 GMT -5
The product is stale because there's nothing much to say at the moment that hasn't been said and done already. Several times. This is true. I stopped watching wrestling regularly back in 2003 because I just got bored with the product. After watching it for 15+ years, I had basically seen everything there is to see. Nothing surprised me anymore and I could see things coming from a mile away. Since then, I've just read results online and watched an occasional match/segment on YouTube.
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Post by Hulkshi Tanahashi on Oct 23, 2008 12:31:59 GMT -5
I find it funny that people who usually complain about wrestling are complaining about a guy complaining about wrestling.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Oct 23, 2008 12:43:55 GMT -5
Hes going to have to keep repeating himself as long as Vince keeps putting the same crap out there. Yeah, but it's a lot easier sitting at home and ranting about how boring and stale the business is... Why isn't he out there to grace the world of pro wrestling with his priceless input, and turning it around in a matter of months? And exactly what is he supposed to do? Start his own company again? Because that worked oh so well the first time around...... Heyman is horrible businessman. He's got a great mind for wrestling, but horrible business sense. How was he "lucky"? He had fresh new ideas that had not been done before, and was able to turn that into the #3 promotion in the country. God knows what he could have accomplished if he had a clue how to actually run a business. As for "not bringing a single idea to the table for the longest time", he brought several ideas to Vince, who shot most of them down. Who else is he supposed to pitch his ideas to? The product is stale because of a lack of things like innovation and competition. Why? He's getting paid by the Sun to express his views on wrestling. Many consider his opinion quite valuable and agree with much of what he's got to say. He's still got a fanbase. And quite frankly, I think his article was far more constructive than some anonymous fan on a message board who hasn't said anything more constructive than "keep his yap shut."
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 23, 2008 12:46:20 GMT -5
I'll say this about Heyman: he makes for debate fodder well here, since you're not likely to find someone apathetic about him and his views. You either agree, or you have strong reasons not to.
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Post by The Genesis of KoOS on Oct 23, 2008 13:00:39 GMT -5
Paul E. has more of TEH HEATZ than MVP and Punk combined.
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Post by Loki on Oct 23, 2008 13:19:06 GMT -5
Yeah, but it's a lot easier sitting at home and ranting about how boring and stale the business is... Why isn't he out there to grace the world of pro wrestling with his priceless input, and turning it around in a matter of months? And exactly what is he supposed to do? Start his own company again? Because that worked oh so well the first time around...... Heyman is horrible businessman. He's got a great mind for wrestling, but horrible business sense. Starting his own company or applying for a position in an already established company, where he won't have to take care of the business side. Lucky because he filled an empty niche at the right time. And the #3 promotion was anyway light-years away from #2. No matter what ECW apologists and posthumous fanboys may say. God knows what ____ could have accomplished had he had a clue about ___... "If"s and "but"s don't change reality. ECW was a nice diversion (for those who were into it) while it lasted, but not THE revolutionary company it's made out to be. Proof? Heyman's word? TNA? ROH? Random indy fed #5425 who may benefit a whole lot from Heyman's input? But yeah, home is safer. A shoot every now and then , just to remind people how great he and ECW were, without putting an ounce of credibility at stake. As I said: repetition is inherent to a "limited" business. Two competitors putting on the same trite stuff won't double the potential audience... They'll split it, most likely. Who cares if he's got a fanbase? Is it about how famous a guy is, or about how constructive his criticism is? What did Heyman say of so meaningful here? "WWE is stale and boring"? WOW! YOU TELL' EM PAUL!!! About the anonymous fan... well, how is your pro-Heyman post more important than my anti-Heyman one? Besides, I don't think my post was just about "shut up Paul!". It was "shut up if you don't tell us and them WHAT TO DO, since you seem to be so smart". And I think I've always had decent arguments to back up my point. See the one about RAW ratings for example. So excuse me if I dared to ask God Heyman to actually propose something to someone, instead of giving us the same old rant
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Post by Red 'n' Black Reggie on Oct 23, 2008 13:21:53 GMT -5
yeah, reactions to his comments more or less sum up what would happen if paul E was given the book for WWE or TNA. everyone would either hate his guts for "ruining wrestling" or hail him as the saviour of the entire industry. i for one think that'd be a pretty cool situation to be in.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Oct 23, 2008 13:40:47 GMT -5
Hes going to have to keep repeating himself as long as Vince keeps putting the same crap out there. Yeah, but it's a lot easier sitting at home and ranting about how boring and stale the business is... Why isn't he out there to grace the world of pro wrestling with his priceless input, and turning it around in a matter of months? I've lost a lot of respect for Heyman. He's the old-timer who had his lucky break and he has been living off his past accomplishments ever since, while relentlessly bitching and moaning without bringing a single idea to the table for the longest time. The product is stale because there's nothing much to say at the moment that hasn't been said and done already. Several times. Unless Heyman has something constructive to say, he'd better keep his yap shut. But apparently the choir of Pavlov's Dogs he's preching still eating up every single word... Well, I'm pretty sure that's easier said then done. WWE won't employ him, because he and Vince's personality are too similar for them to get along. TNA won't hire him because they already have Russo and other writers, and I'm not sure if they would let him run with the full reign (plus he has a couple of people who aren't big fans of him, though he has some supporters like Kurt Angle). And I don't think Paul wants to infringe on his former apprentice Gabe Sapolsky in ROH, and probably wants to let him do his own thing. Heyman is stating his opinion, and he's right. Wrestling needs to change with the times, and somewhat reflect society. Some gimmicks reflect society, but most of them don't. He does have constructive things to say. He doesn't go off and say, WWE sucks and TNA sucks, and that's the end of it. He gives reasons, and how to improve. He puts over talent, but how things need to be improved. I hate it when guys like him and Lance Storm get bashed for putting out there opinions. Don't you think they have actual valid opinions, saying its all coming from experience. None of us can say that.
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krzykraka
Don Corleone
The man who will break FLAIR'S 16x Record
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Post by krzykraka on Oct 23, 2008 14:46:53 GMT -5
I disagree. How does he have the ability to fix the current product? He doesnt even work for the WWE or TNA, even when he was employed by the WWE, he wasn't fairly allowed to use all of his ideas. IMHO, given complete control of creative writing, he could have a very entertaining and watchable product within 3 months. Ehhh. Maybe. I think it'd take longer. Like I said before, this isn't the minors. Three shows is a lot to write for, and changes can't be made as quickly, since you run a serious risk of alienating fans. I was thinking more about complete control of only one show, Raw, since it seems to be the show thats need the most help imo.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 23, 2008 14:48:34 GMT -5
Ehhh. Maybe. I think it'd take longer. Like I said before, this isn't the minors. Three shows is a lot to write for, and changes can't be made as quickly, since you run a serious risk of alienating fans. I was thinking more about complete control of only one show, Raw, since it seems to be the show thats need the most help imo. *shrug* Yeah, one show is more feasible. I don't know if it's so much that Raw needs the most help, but it IS the flagship show, so it'd be a good place to start.
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Post by Loki on Oct 23, 2008 14:56:31 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's easy going out there and revitalizing a stale-ish product.
But once again, what does exactly Heyman say of so valid and constructive?
I didn't read an actual idea... It's the generic and trite "new talent...improving...freshen thing up..." but
HOW[/size]
how is all that supposed to happen?
New guys involved in "old" feuds are gonna make fans tune in in numbers? Really?
Am I mistaken, or CenAustin v Bischoff wasn't the most awesome thing ever, and was hailed as old crap around here?
Quite frankly, pro wrestling doesn't have an infinite amount of characters and storylines, so unless they dare to try something actually NEW, risking a failure of epic proportions, it's gonna be old hat.
Old hat with good characters and performances is better than old hat with mediocre "actors", but it's still old hat...
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Post by corndog on Oct 23, 2008 14:58:37 GMT -5
"Lucky because he filled an empty niche at the right time. And the #3 promotion was anyway light-years away from #2. No matter what ECW apologists and posthumous fanboys may say.
God knows what ____ could have accomplished had he had a clue about ___... "If"s and "but"s don't change reality.
ECW was a nice diversion (for those who were into it) while it lasted, but not THE revolutionary company it's made out to be."
ECW wasn't revolutionary? No obviously WWF had the Attitude era before the existence of ECW, oh wait a second. When ECW first really got going around 94-95, WWF still had Doink the Clown and other ridiculous characters, also mainly targeting their programming to children. WCW was pretty much in the same place. Nothing "risque" was going on in either of the two companies. ECW changed that and proved that wrestling fans still wanted blood, sex and profanity and that a company could suceed that mainly targeted young adult males. Yes WCW and the WWF were far larger and had fan bases that ECW couldn't touch(although some of ECW's early buyrates weren't far below some of the WWF's IYH PPVs). But for the short period of time ECW existed it garnered a larger fan base than most of the territories(I would say it beat the AWA, and Championship Wrestling from Florida) did in the 70s/80s. Also their national television show on TNN/Spike did get better ratings than TNA does now, without the big names and advertising that TNA has. ECW also had mainstream attention, people who didn't watch wrestling knew of ECW's existence and new about their "hardcore" style of wrestling. I would say most non wrestling fans have no idea what ROH is, and alot of them probably don't even know about TNA.
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sloride
Unicron
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Posts: 3,196
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Post by sloride on Oct 23, 2008 15:05:16 GMT -5
Heyman had a fantastic promotion with ECW but its no secret that most of them were high as a kite in order to cope with the pain. It was exciting yes, but it came at a huge price. Times have changed and now with the Wellness Policy and bad press the wrestlers safety needs to come first. This can't happen if we go back to the 'good old days' of the late 90s. But on the other hand it wouldn't kill creative to come up with some fresh ideas. And remember, Steph is back from maternity leave next month so we can count that out!
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greeby
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Post by greeby on Oct 23, 2008 15:26:30 GMT -5
Heyman had a fantastic promotion with ECW but its no secret that most of them were high as a kite in order to cope with the pain. It was exciting yes, but it came at a huge price. Times have changed and now with the Wellness Policy and bad press the wrestlers safety needs to come first. This can't happen if we go back to the 'good old days' of the late 90s. But on the other hand it wouldn't kill creative to come up with some fresh ideas. And remember, Steph is back from maternity leave next month so we can count that out! The guys who made their name off of the hardcore stuff, yes. But one thing ECW could put on when they wanted to is good wrestling matches. A fast-paced, exciting style of wrestling that almost noone in WWE is doing now.
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Post by Roger Smith on Oct 23, 2008 16:19:55 GMT -5
Guys. It's Paul E. saying the same thing he always does. I respect Paul and his contributions to the biz and the innovations he helped drive way back when, but all he's doing in his Sun column these days is to say exactly the following, over and over again: "Modern wrestling is crap. WWE is crap and TNA is barely second place. WWE is stale and not with the times. Everyone only listens to Vince, instead of trying to get with the times." Over and over and over and over. Seriously, that's ALL he's doing. To everyone who is saying "Wow, Heyman is so awesome and right and awesome and great," aren't you getting tired of saying the exact same thing every time, in response to Heyman saying the exact same thing every time? Again, I respect his contributions for the biz and was a huge fan of his tenure as a WWE booker (the Eddy-Angle feud over the WWE title is one of my favorites of all time) but his columns are irrelevant now, and have been ever since he started repeating himself. If he wants to change the face of wrestling, he should do something about it. Bischoff and Hogan took action and started a whole new TV show. Paul is just preaching the same crap to the same choir. Indeed. Don't drink the kool-aid, folks.
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