MasonK565
El Dandy
Biggest Damian Wayne fan on FAN.
Posts: 8,577
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Post by MasonK565 on Jul 16, 2009 16:18:16 GMT -5
Mark Henry will lead us all through the next boom period. I am Vadertime and I approve this message.
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Post by celticjobber on Jul 16, 2009 19:12:46 GMT -5
I think the reason we haven't had another boom period is the over-scripting of WWE's shows, which makes it harder for new guys to develop a good persona like Austin, the Rock, and Hogan had.
And I have to say, I don't get the constant comparisons between UFC and WWE. They're about as much alike as wrestling and boxing. MMA is just 2 guys on the mat holding each other in some kind of lock hold with occasional punches for several minutes.
I even tried watching the Brock/Mir fight from last weekend that everyone hyped up so much, and it was just the same boring thing, only with a few more punches than usual.
And almost all of the big UFC fans I know are elitists who hate wrestling and consider anyone that likes it to be an idiot.
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Post by The_Punisher on Jul 16, 2009 20:06:53 GMT -5
This will probably get me crucified on here but I'll say it anyway. You guys should enjoy wrestling while it's still around, because in 20-30 years I don't think wrestling will exist. Your being objective and posting without a mask. I respect and admire you.
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Mayhem
Don Corleone
BANNED.
No dreams breed in breathless sleep...
Posts: 1,590
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Post by Mayhem on Jul 16, 2009 20:36:11 GMT -5
Maybe it's time for people to accept that it's not going to happen... at least, not for a very long time (if ever).
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Post by YellowJacketY2J on Jul 16, 2009 23:39:22 GMT -5
Maybe it's time for people to accept that it's not going o happen... at least, not for a very long time (if ever). I've accepted this.
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Mayhem
Don Corleone
BANNED.
No dreams breed in breathless sleep...
Posts: 1,590
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Post by Mayhem on Jul 17, 2009 0:23:48 GMT -5
I mean, people have been talking about it as if it was an inevitable fact that there will be another 'boom period', for the last several years. I think it's all been taken so far from where it started that it's nearly impossible, given the current state of things. It's like Bret Hart once said, I think they'll have to get back to making wrestling the focus of the show. They can then tweek the extra elements, but the core has to be wrestling. Right now, wrestling isn't any more important than backstage skits and so on. The whole thing needs to be re-invented, to a degree, while also returning to its roots. Just my two cents.
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Post by sunwukong on Jul 17, 2009 0:27:32 GMT -5
And almost all of the big UFC fans I know are elitists who hate wrestling and consider anyone that likes it to be an idiot. And you would be absolutely shocked to know how many of them owned nWo or Austin 3:16 shirts about 10 years ago.
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Post by Real Folk Bruce on Jul 17, 2009 1:32:30 GMT -5
This will probably get me crucified on here but I'll say it anyway. You guys should enjoy wrestling while it's still around, because in 20-30 years I don't think wrestling will exist. Your being objective and posting without a mask. I respect and admire you. Thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking these things. In all honesty, if the rise of MMA doesn't kill wrestling, the death of Vinnie Mac will. I hope that guy stays healthy, because once Steph takes reign of the WWE, she will drive the f'ing thing to the ground. I swear Steph-era WWE, would make Russo-era WCW look like a golden age. We can only count on a few things. That after Vince passes on, someone responsible takes control of the company, or a massive AJPW-esque exodus of talent that forms it's own promotion like Misawa did with NOAH.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Jul 17, 2009 1:50:01 GMT -5
I think we're starting to see who made who. Vince likes to say he made Hogan and Austin, et al so what's taking him so long to make a new one? WWE is like a record label or a movie studio, without the bankable talent, they're only going to coast until one comes along.
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Post by The_Punisher on Jul 17, 2009 4:16:15 GMT -5
Your being objective and posting without a mask. I respect and admire you. Thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking these things. In all honesty, if the rise of MMA doesn't kill wrestling, the death of Vinnie Mac will. I hope that guy stays healthy, because once Steph takes reign of the WWE, she will drive the f'ing thing to the ground. I swear Steph-era WWE, would make Russo-era WCW look like a golden age. We can only count on a few things. That after Vince passes on, someone responsible takes control of the company, or a massive AJPW-esque exodus of talent that forms it's own promotion like Misawa did with NOAH. I've always been of the opinion that when Vince McMahon dies, he will take the business with him.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Jul 17, 2009 6:09:59 GMT -5
I think we're starting to see who made who. Vince likes to say he made Hogan and Austin, et al so what's taking him so long to make a new one? WWE is like a record label or a movie studio, without the bankable talent, they're only going to coast until one comes along. The irony of it is that the guy who got groomed to be the next top star has achieved everything WWE hoped he would, but reaching that level involved leaving the company and repeatedly badmouthing pro-wrestling as fake in order to get over with the audience he'd always been marketed to.
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Post by supercheese on Jul 17, 2009 6:19:36 GMT -5
The boom period for wrestling has been stolen by MMA.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,100
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Post by Mecca on Jul 17, 2009 8:24:30 GMT -5
In fairness here, MMA is much more of a threat to boxing than it is wrestling. I also don't believe they "stole wrestlings boom" either.
MMA is a new fad to alot of people, they're getting into it for many reasons. We'll see if it sustains that popularity or it is just a fad. I don't mean fad like dying either but fad in terms of this popularity.
Real or fake what sells the "fight game" is personality and stories. Lesnar is smart enough to sell that he is a heel and realizes it makes more people interested. UFC has numerous fighters who are actually interesting and they've been smart enough to sell some of these guys backstories. There are people that hate Rich Franklin because he was a teacher and they remember some douche teacher they had, just simple stuff like that.
But no matter what personality, charisma etc are going to trump pure skill in attractive the casual fan required for the boom. Right now UFC has those personalities while wrestling doesn't...
The WWE is busy pushing a very homogenized product where many guys look and act the same. Or they are pet projects that don't have great character or charisma. For example Randy Orton is a pet project...no one cares about him he is not interesting.
Many of the UFC fighters have outstanding personalities with good stories. I think alot of them are like the WWE use to say "their real lives just with the volume turned up" but they let these guys be themselves and it works right now because they are interesting. It's all about the characters...
MMA at it's heart is not really exciting for every 1 fight that is awesome there are 10 really bland ones. Everyone cared about what Henderson did to Bisping because he's successfully made everyone hate him. If no one has a real hate for Bisping people go man that was a nasty punch but it isn't received like it was.
The advantage a wrestling would have over MMA is you can take your most marketable charismatic guys and pick them to be on top, in MMA that guy could get KO'd and never be heard from again. But the WWE does not take advantage of this for a few reasons...
They've watered their booking down so no one really stands out, no one is really natural. They push who they wanna push..the audience of 1 booking with the audience being Vince, pet projects..they take their 1 real advantage and flush it when they do this.
I don't think either will ever go away, right now is a great MMA period where tons of guys with personality and stories are being put together. That's what is attracting their boom period not the greatness of the fights. If UFC can continue to find interesting fighters that people care about then they will continue to make money and a huge rate.
If wrestling can never find another big star then they are hosed as far as a boom period, the law of averages would say they'd have to stumble into one but with how things are working now they might even ruin that...
It's about stars and personality UFC has them, WWE doesn't, and the WWE is not remotely taking advantage of the things they do have an advantage in when it comes to this.
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Post by Real Folk Bruce on Jul 18, 2009 0:57:34 GMT -5
Mecca speaks the truth. It is sad considering that WWE, a company that has long prided itself on its colorful larger then life characters is today so lacking in creativity, that a legitimate sporting event provides characters and stories that are infinitely more compelling and intriguing.
Hey I'm a big a wrestling fan as the next guy (I do post on a wrestling forum after all) but I have more interest in watching Brock Lesnar, Quinton Jackson, Chuck Liddell, Georges St. Pierre, Lyoto Machida, or Fedor then whatever the hell WWE is pushing nowadays. I love the WWE to pieces, but nowadays they are giving me less and less reasons to watch.
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Post by mondaymorningchamp on Jul 18, 2009 1:04:22 GMT -5
I think we're starting to see who made who. Vince likes to say he made Hogan and Austin, et al so what's taking him so long to make a new one? WWE is like a record label or a movie studio, without the bankable talent, they're only going to coast until one comes along. I've never heard McMahon claim to have made Austin the way he rightfully takes credit for Hulkamania.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Jul 18, 2009 2:29:33 GMT -5
I join the pessimistic crowd here.
I feel like wrestling kind of sold it's soul in the mid-late 90s. For the past history of the medium, a tension had always been maintained, by the public questioning/suspecting claiming that wrestling was fake and the promoters/wrestlers ignoring or outright denying that. In the 90s that all changed, with WWF and WCW (nobody but wrestling fans knew what ECW was at the time, sorry) in various ways acknowledging that everything was a work and exploiting that element in their product, playing their last card so to speak.
All that attention in the late 90s, the NWO-Attitude boom period? That wasn't a boom period, that was a memorial service in my opinion. Now the public-at-large has had their suspicions openly confirmed, and after paying their final respects now have no further interest. I think this might be why (from afar, to me, I haven't watched new wrestling in like 10 years) the product seems so directionless.
Wrestling as it was is culturally irrelevent in North America, and will now be in cultural limbo until either the wrestling fan population shrinks (as it has been steadily) to insignificance or significant monumental changes are made such that people at large are given a reason to care again.
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bretclark
Bubba Ho-Tep
Scrutinize this...
Posts: 503
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Post by bretclark on Jul 18, 2009 3:13:46 GMT -5
You know, I've been thinking something lately that might stir up some conversation. In the 80's, wrestling blew up with the Hulk Hogan/Rock N' Wrestling period. In the 90's, it blew up again with the whole Stone Cold/Attitude/Monday Night Wars period. But now that we're nearing the end of the 00's, there hasn't been a boom period where wrestling really broke out into the mainstream. I mean, the closest wrestling ever really got into the mainstream during this time period was with John Cena and his rap album, but that's kinda a stretch. So how come? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is it because there's no competition on the scale of the Monday Night Wars until TNA figures out a way to compete on the same level of WWE? Is it because the main draws (ie Triple H and John Cena) don't quite stack up to the likes of Hulk Hogan in the 80s and Stone Cold and The Rock in the 90s? Is it some other reason? Honestly, I can't figure it out myself. The odd thing is, it's not like the in-ring action is suffering. I don't watch regularly but it seems like the product is solid all around. But is it lacking the flash to catch the eye of new fans or old fans that have written off wrestling since the Attitude era died down? Are we on the cusp of a boom right now? Unfortunately, it doesn't seem the "00" going to have a boom period. The reason, as it has been mentioned many times in this thread and many others, the characters are people nobody cares about (outside the hardcore, loyal WWE fans they currently have.), the lack of compelling storylines that make people want to watch the show (Reference 24, The Shield, Rescue Me, etc...), as well as the McMahons being oblivious to what people want and doing things the McMahon way (Which is the "Our way or the High way" routine.). Plus factor in fans who use to watch the product who were coming strong (Meaning numbers of fans) around 2001 (When the Monday Night Wars was officially over) who were treated to the whole McMahon/Invasion angle that devastated the ratings. And another side note about the characters is that they look like somebody came from the local Sears Men's department and right into the ring to do the battle with someone who came from the Pacsun store from the local mall of which ever city RAW/Smackdown/WWECW/etc. is taking place to determine once and for all who has the best modern trend clothing. - bretclark
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,100
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Post by Mecca on Jul 18, 2009 3:13:56 GMT -5
They don't have a breakthrough mega star that is the issue, nothing more. Bret Hart and HBK were stars in wrestling that's it they had no crossover appeal that's where they are today.
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Post by sunwukong on Jul 18, 2009 3:36:31 GMT -5
They don't have a breakthrough mega star that is the issue, nothing more. Bret Hart and HBK were stars in wrestling that's it they had no crossover appeal that's where they are today. You're basing that on the pretext that one crossover creates a boom period. I completely disagree. It's a perfect storm of elements that lead to pro-wrestling being socially accepted in a mainstream fashion. One guy does not do that. Austin was not responsible for the last boom. Neither was the nWo. It was a number of things working in concert that created it. Attempting to quantify what causes these things is pointless. You can't determine what makes millions of people suddenly get interested for a couple of years in something that is there all the time. There are no simple answers.
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Post by rawthentic on Jul 18, 2009 4:33:49 GMT -5
I guess im one of the few on these boards that is a huge MMA fan, and still a huge wrestling fan. They are two different things. MMA does not need personalities. They need great fighters, and as long as they have that, people will care. MMA's boom is because every day they are getting more and more accepted as a sport like boxing has always been and it's getting mainstream sports media attention.
MMA will have no impact on the next potential boom period for pro wrestling. Most of us were kids during the last one, and i know damn well i probably would not be all that into MMA at 12 years old. So, i don't think WWE is depending on that audience. The majority of their target audience probably have no interest in MMA, they just don't care for what they see on the screen.
All pro wrestling needs is a star and compelling storylines. John Cena and HHH are stars but their stars do not shine nearly as bright as Hogan, Rock, and Austin. They need somebody bigger and more interesting than those guys, and far more interesting storylines.
I have a few friends that used to watch wrestling in the monday night wars era, but don't watch anymore. They always ask me if there is any good storylines going on that they should check out but i can't always vouche for WWE or TNA these days . My point being, people will watch if it's interesting, and it's not as interesting as it was during their last boom period.
It's not like they are hurting though. Millions of people watch RAW every Monday.
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