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Post by weaselboy on Aug 11, 2009 17:28:02 GMT -5
Creative really has its hands tied behind its backs, every idea must be approved by those directly above. I'm hesitant to say they suck because we don't know how many great ideas are shot down by the McMahons or others who have the veto power. The booking is why they have such a hard time making new stars. They don't give people the time they need or freedom they need to get over. I've got to agree with you there from what I've read WWE is a horrible environment to attempt to be creative in. Its no surprise that most WWE writers come from successful stints on other shows and upon leaving WWE continue to do well and find work. |
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Post by saintturgeon on Aug 11, 2009 17:35:13 GMT -5
The main problem is that Raw is both overloaded with the top names (Batista, Cena, Orton, Triple H, and now Shawn Michaels), and has a particularly stupid creative team. Even with Triple H on Smackdown, he never hogged the spotlight as much as he has on RAW since being drafted back. He even put Jeff Hardy over, which elevated him to the main event status he's currently enjoying. If they want RAW to improve, they need to split up the top stars so they can't keep a chokehold on the ME scene, and get creative team members who can actually think outside the box for once. RAW has a very good midcard, and they need to start using and elevating those guys. But that's a real catch 22. As the flagship show, WWE needs as many top names on Raw. |
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Post by willywonka666 on Aug 11, 2009 17:36:38 GMT -5
I think the writers have way too much control. Let the wrestlers have some input and if it flies, it flies. As brilliant as Roddy piper is, he would have a much harder time getting over today if they didn't let him roll with what he knows best. In the past, there's only been a handful of wrestlers with the personality and willingness to take it up a notch, like Austin, Hogan etc. When you have big guys like that leading the way, it inspires you to be around them, and you want to do a better job. there's not a lot of that going on today at all. Giving wrestlers creative control is what made WCW what they are today. Never put the inmates in charge of the asylum. Well, not in charge, but at least let them deviate from the script. Vince seems even more controlling than he used to. |
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Aug 11, 2009 17:39:40 GMT -5
Well, not in charge, but at least let them deviate from the script. Vince seems even more controlling than he used to. Oh, you mean let them do more with their own promos? I can understand that, I just think giving them actual creative control over matches would cause the problems mentioned in the thread to get even worse. |
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Post by Mayonnaise on Aug 11, 2009 17:40:49 GMT -5
It isn't the stars/vets, it's what some of the stars/vets are booked to do. On Smackdown it's a perfect mix of old and new. On Raw it's Cena, Triple H, Batsita, Orton, and then you're all dandy until you run in to one of them. I won't say WWE as a whole can't make new stars at all though. Right now CM Punk is on a massive surge up in the eyes of the fans as a legitimate main eventer. Because he's on the brand without veterans trying to steal his thunder. But that isn't a Cena/Trips/Orton/HBK issue (at least not anything known). Hell, Batista made DiBiase, Rhodes, Ziggler and Manu look like main eventers and, then nothing was done with them or they were jobbed to one of the others in a handicapped match. |
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Aug 11, 2009 17:44:20 GMT -5
RAW really needs a face lift desperately. For the last two or three years or so the main event scene on the show has involved Batista, Orton, HHH, and Cena. The last time it was not revolving around one or more of those 4 was when Jericho was on top as WHC and Punk before him. We as the IWC don't need to like some of the guys they try and build up to be new stars, but they need to do it. Swagger needs a program with Cena and MVP needs to mix it up with Orton more frequently to be viewed as a threat. Beyond those guys, i don't see much room for advancement for guys like Kingston, Bourne, etc.
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greeby
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Post by greeby on Aug 11, 2009 17:49:27 GMT -5
OK, Vince, let's see what you can do. Let's stick with Raw as we're led to believe that's where all the stars are, right?
Let the young guys go out there and wrestle more than 3 minutes a match.
You want Orton as a long-term champion? Fine, line up new opponents for the next 6 PPVs (By new I mean not named Cena, Triple H or Batista)
Cut the guest host crap. It rarely delivers better ratings and eats up all the promo time that the midcard and women could be using.
Order Triple H to make people look good. We all know that he only gets away with his burying everyone he works with because Vince lets him.
Get rid of the midget, seriously.
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Post by diegorivera on Aug 11, 2009 17:53:30 GMT -5
It's 50/50. Creative contributes ideas, the wrestlers themselves contribute ideas. Somewhere in the middle is everything the WWE (or rather, RAW,) needs right now. Creative should really analyze every show and appearance, including house shows. See who's connecting with the audience. Look at their work in the indies and/or FCW. See what worked there. If it doesn't look like it will work on the big stage, then try tweeking it a bit before just throwing it out and handing the guy something he may not be able to work with. See if there's something that the worker can extend his own personality to and put that out on Raw or Smackdown. It'll be easier for guy to make that work.
By the same token, wrestlers need to spend more time with creative and understand how their job works. The producers and even the guys putting together the show should also be listened to. Guys like Foley and Jericho did that and it really helped them to understand what it took to get over. The wrestlers also have to be willing to run with whatever they get handed, because everyone isn't going to get to be Cena, HHH, Punk or Hardy. Cena started out as vanilla guy with a decent look and was eventually handed a gimmick that was basically "Wrestling Vanilla Ice." He made that work and is now the biggest star in wrestling. HHH was a foppish blue blood who got tossed into pig pens and squashed by the Ultimate Warrior. Long before he married Steph, he got majorly over in both incarnations of DX and with his rise to the top as a unrepentant heel. Punk was an indy sensation who many figured would get lost in the mix. Instead, he's risen to the top. Hardy was a job guy for years to say nothing of the drug issues. By doing crazy spots and taking huge risks each time the camera was on him, he's become one of the most popular stars in wrestling. Sometime you get lemons and you have to make some lemonade. Imagine where we'd be if Austin or Rock didn't persevere when they had gimmicks that weren't going anywhere...
It's 50/50. Creative is handing a lot of guys crap, but many of them don't seem willing to make it work. They just go through the motions and everyone complains that it's creatives fault for not letting everyone do what they want. Like Razor said, the inmates shouldn't run the asylum. By the same token, creative needs to get to know these guys a bit more and try to give them something they can work with. The fans will decide who the new stars are, just as they did with the old ones.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Aug 11, 2009 17:57:41 GMT -5
It boils down to the Raw creative team just pushing the same guys continuously.
Steve Austin was in the main event title scene (when he wasn't injured) between 1998 and 2001. In 2002-2003 (when he wasn't at home with his ball) he was kept away from the title.
The Rock was in the main event title scene (when he wasn't in hollywood) between 1999 and 2002. In 2003 he was having matches with people like The Hurricane, Steve Austin, and Goldberg.
Shawn Michaels was in the main event title scene (when he wasn't injured...real or not) between 1996 and 1998. He came back in 2002, and has had a few title feuds since then, but has mostly been in the upper midcard.
Triple H has been in the main event title scene (when he's not injured) from 1999 to 2009. There have been a few times where HHH was purposely being kept away from the title, but they never last long and they usually involve DX.
It's not just HHH, but it really puts things into perspective. A lot of people fuss about Cena, Batista, and Orton but they haven't been in the main event for 10 years like HHH. As a matter of fact, out of the three, Orton has been in the ME the longest, winning his first World Title 5 years ago. However, Orton really didn't get back in the ME until 2007.
Still, having a guy like HHH who has been a consistent main player for a decade now isn't necessarily a bad thing if used right. He could do wonders for guys like MVP and Jack Swagger by putting them over. I would even go as far as to say that Jack Swagger getting one win over HHH would do more for his career than 10 wins over Orton would.
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Post by Pervy Stone Cold on Aug 11, 2009 17:57:50 GMT -5
OK, Vince, let's see what you can do. Let's stick with Raw as we're led to believe that's where all the stars are, right? Let the young guys go out there and wrestle more than 3 minutes a match. You want Orton as a long-term champion? Fine, line up new opponents for the next 6 PPVs (By new I mean not named Cena, Triple H or Batista) Cut the guest host crap. It rarely delivers better ratings and eats up all the promo time that the midcard and women could be using. Order Triple H to make people look good. We all know that he only gets away with his burying everyone he works with because Vince lets him. Get rid of the midget, seriously. All good. And as an addition to cutting this Hornswoggle nonsense out, actually USE Chavo! |
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Aug 11, 2009 17:58:55 GMT -5
Problem is, I don't think Rock or Austin would get a second chance in the current environment. They'd just get dumped, people on Wrestlecrap would go "hooray", and the company would eventually go bankrupt.
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londonfan
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Post by londonfan on Aug 11, 2009 18:01:39 GMT -5
*Yawn* newz.
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Mecca
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Post by Mecca on Aug 11, 2009 18:01:52 GMT -5
Problem is, I don't think Rock or Austin would get a second chance in the current environment. They'd just get dumped, people on Wrestlecrap would go "hooray", and the company would eventually go bankrupt. In todays landscape of wrestling the Rock would have been Rocky Maivia for 2 years then future endeavored. |
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Aug 11, 2009 18:01:54 GMT -5
I think it needs to be a combination of giving a guy the chance and seeing if he can run with it. To give people scripts and no direction the fans arent going to really develop an interest in the character. Austin was a product of Austin himself turning his attitude up to 11, the Rock went from the babyface being forced down our throats to one of the greatest wrestlers ever. Mick Foley became a more beleivable character, DX had attitude, the New Age Outlaws had attitude and everyone had a place. Now its just redundant. A face interview is "Argh Im mad at the heel" and a heel interview is "I am better than everyone else" Cena's character is Rock Lite where he does amped up Pop Culture Modern Muhamid Ali shtick geared towards 11 year olds. He got the crowd reaction early on for his rap gimmick and the attitude he put out. Not the "Aw shucks... some fans like me some dont" crap that he does now. His character is a standard wrestling character, its not John Cena the character, just your run of the mill face. And the WWE's direction now seems to be deciding who the fans will cheer for and who they'll boo rather than having it work organically and pushing people because of the fans demanding it.
They dont need to bring back vulgarity and dabouchery just the attitude they seem to be sorely missing these days.
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Yami Daimao
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Post by Yami Daimao on Aug 11, 2009 18:08:57 GMT -5
Vince's quote seems a bit fabricated if you ask me. The subject of the "article" is Vince is pissed that he can't create new stars, and someone somehow manages to hear Vince say (word for word) "Why can't we create new stars?"? If these guys are going to make up a story just for the hell of it, atleast be a bit more creative. I'm with londonfan on this one. Newz. |
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Post by willywonka666 on Aug 11, 2009 18:09:12 GMT -5
Well, not in charge, but at least let them deviate from the script. Vince seems even more controlling than he used to. Oh, you mean let them do more with their own promos? I can understand that, I just think giving them actual creative control over matches would cause the problems mentioned in the thread to get even worse. Nah, the wrestlers just need to be able to get themselves over in a promo more than anything else. If you have some of these guys winning matches before any of the fans could care about them, then that'd be putting the cart before the horse IMO. |
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Bocuma
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Post by Bocuma on Aug 11, 2009 19:37:05 GMT -5
Giving wrestlers creative control is what made WCW what they are today. Never put the inmates in charge of the asylum. Well, not in charge, but at least let them deviate from the script. Vince seems even more controlling than he used to. I'm with you on this. The best superstars had elements of themselves in their characters. Sometimes I wonder, though: is it the writers having too much control, or the wrestlers too afraid to be themselves? WWE is such a different beast than it used to be. And yes I realize this is probably NEWZ but it's an interesting topic nonetheless. |
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Aug 11, 2009 20:14:14 GMT -5
It's because instead of having "bookers" with actual experience in the wrestling industry, they have "writers" who until being hired by Vince, spent their careers working on soap operas. They come up with storylines and scripts for who they see or who they are told are the main event guys, and no time or energy is left over for anyone below them. They don't know wrestling talent; they only know what in their minds only makes for good TV.
Another thing Vince can do is elevate the US and IC titles to give them meaning. WWE has been better about the IC lately, and that goes with the overall quality of Smackdown. Raw, on the other hand, has a talented US Champion, but the belt is treated as a prop and rarely defended. When it is, it's usually like the 6-Pack Challenge where five random challengers are drawn from a hat in a throwaway match instead of building up a feud where the challenger WANTS the title, and therefore makes it prestigious and worth fighting over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2009 20:30:58 GMT -5
"Why can't we create new stars?"
Because every raw must first jump the hurdle of allocating required time to each of the usual suspects, all of which must for some reason be super protected to the point that no one else is allowed to get over on them...they can only go over each other.
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Post by 'Smart' Mark Poindexter on Aug 11, 2009 22:28:43 GMT -5
Gotta side with the whole letting wrestler's deviate from the script thing BUT I say no more scripted promos period. I mean would the WWF have been the same in the 80's if the same 7 or 8 guys all wrote Diabiase,Hogan,The Ultimate Warrior,and Randy Savage's interviews for them?
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