hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
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Post by hollywood on Oct 11, 2009 17:57:52 GMT -5
Austin.
Mostly because at this point I just want to spite Flair fans.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Oct 11, 2009 18:56:39 GMT -5
Austin. Mostly because at this point I just want to spite Flair fans. This seems to be a running trend on several wrestling sites these days. It's why I've all but disregarded any conversation about Flair on the internet these days.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Oct 11, 2009 19:12:52 GMT -5
16-5.
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Post by tarheelfan on Oct 11, 2009 19:13:54 GMT -5
Is Austin really a household name anymore among the mainstream populace? I seriously doubt it myself. After the next several years it will have been a decade since the end of the Attitude Era(time sure does fly). I live in a southern town of about 75,000 population and I remember during the height of the Attitude Era when I'd go to the mall and about a 1/4 of the younger male 18-35 demographic had Austin t-shirts. Now I go to the mall and I might see no one with an Austin t-shirt. The Attitude Era was a phenomenal set of circumstances and at the time it seemed Austin was the all time King of the Wrestling World and most popular wrestler of all time at the time. And I remember as an older fan even at the time telling a lot of the younger fans that as popular as Austin was that he was still nowhere near Hogans level in overall popularity success in the long range scheme of things. Looking back now I was right. Hogan is a still a household name by far and Hogan has stood the test of time whereas Austin is not a mainstream household name anymore. In fact it could be argued that in the end the wrestler who will have the most mainstream longetivity from the Attitude Era is The Rock.
I have always said that since around 1980 that only two wrestlers stand out as the standard bearers of this era and that is Hogan and Flair. Hogan represents the glamorized WWE style whereas Flair is the standard bearer of the old school NWA style of wrestling. To elevate Austin over Flair is to basically pretend that the Attitude Era is far better overall than the Golden Age of modern wrestling in the 1980s. Flair did not have to use profanity to try to win over a young demographic that Austin did who otherwise never watched wrestling before but was enamored with Austins rebellious character. And most of those young demographic who were big fans of Austins rebellious character are no longer watching wrestling. Yet Flairs legacy in this sport is still great today as it ever was. Flair has stood the test of time but Austins wrestling character not so much.
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Post by triplealbert on Oct 11, 2009 19:32:01 GMT -5
Austin.
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Post by wasimperviz on Oct 11, 2009 19:44:17 GMT -5
No question about it. Steve Austin is the biggest name in wrestling right next to Hogan. Flair did a lot but he can not match a Steve Austin.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Oct 11, 2009 19:56:14 GMT -5
I love the way one of the greatest careers of all time, 16 world titles, countless ***** matches and memorable feuds are reduced to "a lot", and then in the next breath we're told he can't compare with Stunning Steve Austin.
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Post by Solid Stryk-Dizzle on Oct 11, 2009 19:57:12 GMT -5
Dude, calm down. People think differently than you do. Deal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2009 19:57:42 GMT -5
16-5. 17-6
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H-Fist
Hank Scorpio
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Post by H-Fist on Oct 11, 2009 19:58:56 GMT -5
Flair certainly has had more of an influence on the inside of the business, with the exception of the WWE Creative Team. Even if Austin had a greater effect on the majority of today's fans, Flair's career is more influential.
The only real argument for Austin comes down to era and money. Austin was at the forefront of the Attitude era alongside The Rock, Vince, and probably Sable (just being honest). They were the three Everyone Knows Us guys (Taker, Kane, Foley, DX huge; DX just as much pop culture intrusion, but Triple H <<< Austin at the hot point). He sold more merchandise and drove more sales than just about anyone before him.
But, the era of his prime was afforded the mass exposure of the internet, DVD displacing VHS (or nothing, as is the case for much of Flair's prime), multi-times-weekly new TV, widely available national cable broadcasting, etc. He was a beneficiary of everything moving at a newly increased pace.
The argument against Flair comes down to the good and the bad of his career from the start of the Monday night wars through his retirement. Evolution established Triple H as his heir apparent and turned Orton and Batista into huge stars. His role in opposition to the nWo gave WCW Flair/Hogan, Flair/Piper, and Flair/Sting, among other matchups people wanted to see more of.
The only problem with Flair for so many of us under-30 fans is that we are only exposed to his prime in retrospect. We were too young to experience it as it happened, so seeing Flair in the NWA via YouTube or DVDs condenses that career to mere highlights. And we can just as easily fill a DVD with Austin highlights as Flair highlights. We actually saw the rest of Stone Cold. We can remember the progressions, the week-to-week interactions. But for Flair, most of that is gone. So we end up comparing the sets of highlights, and then we compare the excitement of Austin's prime with the awful booking of WCW's last years.
It is easy to forget how important Ric Flair was. He provided, if nothing else, a link between the territory days and today. We can see how greatly wrestling as an industry has changed by following where and how he was booked. He was out of the NWA when WCW decided it wanted to control its own world title. He left WCW when a pizza man was hired to run the place. Hogan's politicking in WWF early in Flair's run made that sojourn shorter than it could have been. He later had to find a place as the old guard against the nWo, but without becoming a bland babyface. Later, in WWE, he became a part-time wrestler, managing and leading others forward. He did all he could to make those around him better.
Whether we speak of his role in Evolution or his thrashing at Umaga's hands, his final years were focused on leaving the industry all the stronger for his absence. That's something that can't be said about Steve Austin.
A blowout becomes a landslide in favor of the Nature Boy.
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Post by wasimperviz on Oct 11, 2009 19:59:19 GMT -5
Steve Austin also had some really good feuds and matches better then Ric Flair and they gained more fan interest. When Ric Flair was washed up Austin was selling out the world.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2009 20:07:06 GMT -5
I think that is cutting it too simply, I have no vote in this yet but Austin's career for pure attention and allowing people to start following (given how he does have a role in starting the Attitude Era) does give him a fair argument to me.
Flair's career is definitely more impressive over a length of time, and he is widely credited by the majority of serious wrestling fans to have had hundreds of better matches than Steve Austin (albeit that is subjective due to taste) but he didn't have as much immediate impact, nor is he as easily recognisable as Austin, Hell he still comes on random TV shows and people know who he is (Soccer AM lately being a great example).
I do agree that Flair is the wrestlers wrestler as such, but whether that says he's had more of an impact on an industry that in modern times is seen just as much a form of entertainment than sport, you have to sort of understand that Austin has had almost as much of an impact on the world of proffesional wrestling in the few years he was active.
I still don't have a decision and I've been mulling this over all night...
I mean, if we spoke technically, Flair wins hands down, but Austin had a link to fans and I thought was a great psychologist in his own right, he was not the worker Flair was, but he was a great charismatic figure that was cheered by the majority of the wrestling audience in a time where the entire business was changing rapidly. Flair also managed this to a lesser extent (I watched both WCW/WWF so I'm not going on one side here hopefully) but, well, as frustrating as it is to come back to the same argument, he was not the figurehead of the most popular generation of wrestling (in terms of viewing audience), and as much as I'd like to say popularity doesn't matter, in a rigged semi-sport, it does.
I may have just rambled there, but I'm high on caffeine.
AGAIN, I'm not on either side, I have made no decision! Please don't jump on me.
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Post by wasimperviz on Oct 11, 2009 20:10:19 GMT -5
I think that is cutting it too simply, I have no vote in this yet but Austin's career for pure attention and allowing people to start following (given how he does have a role in starting the Attitude Era) does give him a fair argument to me. Flair's career is definitely more impressive over a length of time, and he is widely credited by the majority of serious wrestling fans to have had hundreds of better matches than Steve Austin (albeit that is subjective due to taste) but he didn't have as much immediate impact, nor is he as easily recognisable as Austin, Hell he still comes on random TV shows and people know who he is (Soccer AM lately being a great example). I do agree that Flair is the wrestlers wrestler as such, but whether that says he's had more of an impact on an industry that in modern times is seen just as much a form of entertainment than sport, you have to sort of understand that Austin has had almost as much of an impact on the world of proffesional wrestling in the few years he was active. I still don't have a decision and I've been mulling this over all night... I mean, if we spoke technically, Flair wins hands down, but Austin had a link to fans and I thought was a great psychologist in his own right, he was not the worker Flair was, but he was a great charismatic figure that was cheered by the majority of the wrestling audience in a time where the entire business was changing rapidly. Flair also managed this to a lesser extent (I watched both WCW/WWF so I'm not going on one side here hopefully) but, well, as frustrating as it is to come back to the same argument, he was not the figurehead of the most popular generation of wrestling (in terms of viewing audience), and as much as I'd like to say popularity doesn't matter, in a rigged semi-sport, it does. I may have just rambled there, but I'm high on caffeine. AGAIN, I'm not on either side, I have made no decision! Please don't jump on me. What you need to do is put it down to overall. I mean ask all the questions and see who ticks the boxes. I will give you a few example below. Better face - Austin Better heel - Austin Biggest draw - Austin Bigger money making feuds - Austin Better wrestling skills - Flair DVD sales - Austin T.Shirt sale - Austin Face of the wrestling business - Austin More championships - Ric Flair Which wrestler would WCW / WWE or ECW liked to have during the peak of the monday night wars? Austin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2009 20:12:09 GMT -5
I still see half of those as a big set of opinions though, as much as I love Austin he played a different type of huge role in the wrestling business than Flair did, so I can't really come up with a definitive answer.
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Post by Evilution E5150 on Oct 11, 2009 20:12:52 GMT -5
while i am a huge flair mark look at it this way, my dad could tell you who stone cold steve austin is, he couldnt tell you who flair is
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Post by wasimperviz on Oct 11, 2009 20:14:11 GMT -5
I still see half of those as a big set of opinions though, as much as I love Austin he played a different type of huge role in the wrestling business than Flair did, so I can't really come up with a definitive answer. Maybe your a Flair mark who does not want to admit Austin was better by miles overall. During Austins peak Flair could not touch him in anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2009 20:16:42 GMT -5
...assumptions make an arse out of you and me, I have stated on this forum several times I find Flair's matches tedious and I dislike the man, and I actively LOVE Austin, but using your own like/dislike meter as a measure of who was better makes things too black and white and, well, obviously biased.
That's what I'm saying overall.
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Post by wasimperviz on Oct 11, 2009 20:18:27 GMT -5
Here are some more questions to decide who means more overall.
Who would you rather see return if they could? Austin Who would you like to see given award for biggest wrestler ever? Austin
Vince Mcmahon himself said Austin was the biggest superstar ever.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2009 20:21:24 GMT -5
Again though, that's subjective, I would say Austin to both of those things too, but a Flair fan would likely say Flair as an answer.
I mean, Vince has a vested interest in saying that too, and while I believe he means it, Austin saved the WWF and made Vince a shedload of money over a few years, Flair didn't. So again, subjective.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Oct 11, 2009 20:23:04 GMT -5
What you need to do is put it down to overall. I mean ask all the questions and see who ticks the boxes. I will give you a few example below. Better face - Austin Better heel - Austin I will argue that, since Austin just did the same routine whichever he was supposed to be, which was more of a heel than a babyface, and I will forever argue that Flair was a better heel. Hell, I'd argue that "Stunning" Steve Austin was a better heel. Biggest draw - Austin Bigger money making feuds - Austin Ah, but again, only for a short period of time. Source on this? I know at one time the first Flair disc was one of the company's top sellers, and they've since released a 2nd Flair set and a Horsemen dvd, whereas they've only released one Austin dvd. Well that's great and all, but N'Sync sold a lot of T-shirts, too. Does that mean they're more important to the history of music than Jerry Lee Lewis? Face of the wrestling business - Austin During his short time at the top, sure. Now, I'd say he's no more recognizable than Flair. Which wrestler would WCW / WWE or ECW liked to have during the peak of the monday night wars? Austin Perhaps, but the Monday Night Wars is not the be all, end all of the wrestling business. Over the long haul, I'd say they'd go with Flair. Much better track record.
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