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Post by baerrtt on Sept 13, 2009 7:34:58 GMT -5
This. It was one of the stupidest moves WWE ever pulled. Angle was so insanely over, and positioned to be THE superstar of WWE and they turned him heel for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It was asinine I comletely agree on this one. they finally got Angle up to that badass huge face level and they they just go ahead and drop him back down in favor of Austin who only had a few matches left in his career. It was stupid and I think was the beginning of why Kurt Angle isn't in WWE anymore. I sincerely doubt that. Especially considering that he was turned face again in '03 and became THE guy on Smackdown as well as the World Champion. There's no question that the most over Angle probably ever was in the WWF/E was during his feud with Austin in '01 but still a significant portion of that audience were still marking for Austin like it was 1998. I recall their Summerslam match that year where despite the buildup which made Steve look comically like a pussy the actual match consisted of the 'old' Stone Cold character returning as he bloodied up Kurt.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Sept 13, 2009 7:38:35 GMT -5
Kurt Angle joining the Alliance in 2001. He was CRAZY over and it was so soon after 9/11/01, which just got the crowd behind him even more. The heel turn was a stupid, stupid idea. This. If nothing else, the alliance angle really did WONDERS for Kurt Angle. Turning him heel at any time around then (ESPECIALLY so soon after 9/11) was just awful
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2009 9:23:01 GMT -5
Every time the Giant joined the nWo. It never made any sense. Same with avage. The first time he joined wasn't bad because no one expected it. He came out and it looked like he was going to destroy Hogan and The Outsiders but instead started helping them. The rest of the times where he went back and forth like three or four more times was stupid. The thing about that first Giant nWo heel turn was that it was actually a fallback plan. WCW was so sure Davey Boy Smith was going to jump to their company and be the next member of the nWo that they pretty much told us the week before, "The nWo is adding a new member next week." Then, Vince slid a 5-year deal in front of Bulldog and he decided to stay in the WWF at the last minute. If I'm not mistaken, the Giant was the first wrestler to join the nWo without ever having been in the WWF before, so naturally it was a big surprise. I think it opened the door for the next member (fake Sting) and the possibility of it actually being Sting was plausible. They weren't just former WWF guys anymore; they're taking anybody who will help them dominate the promotion.
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Post by Crazy Diamond on Sept 13, 2009 13:58:38 GMT -5
Yeah, gotta agree with Austin, Sting, and Goldberg. Their heel turns were poorly thought out and executed though looking back Sting actually got a decent reaction at times as a heel. I would like to add Booker T joining the New Blood and turning him heel not long after he entered the WWE to this list. Until King Booker, I always felt that Booker was like Sting in that he was more entertaining and interesting as a face. I thought it was stupid that Booker was suddenly evil because he came from WCW despite being a face before WCW shut down. Him joining the New Blood made sense but then I was confused as to who the good guys were and who the bad guys were for several years.
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Post by theganzobomb on Sept 13, 2009 14:39:34 GMT -5
Alex Shelley joining the Embassy in 2005 ROH. Don't get me wrong, it lead to the fantastic team-up of Shelley and Jimmy Rave, as well as some great matches against Generation Next, but it always got to me how Shelley was primed to become possibly the most over face in the company, if we go by live crowd reactions, chasing after the heel champion who had betrayed him (Aries), a heel champion who didn't to much to signify a face turn...yet it was Shelley who turned heel. I was always hoping for the eventual huge blowoff match of the feud between a face Shelley and a heel Aries, but outside of their one title match at Manhattan Mayhem, it never really materialized. I know What you mean,I never understood why they turned shelly heel
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bigbossman
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Post by bigbossman on Sept 13, 2009 15:30:28 GMT -5
Bret Hart in the WWF.
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Post by theganzobomb on Sept 13, 2009 16:20:25 GMT -5
Stone Cold's heel turn
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Post by gamblore on Sept 14, 2009 0:27:23 GMT -5
The first time he joined wasn't bad because no one expected it. He came out and it looked like he was going to destroy Hogan and The Outsiders but instead started helping them. The rest of the times where he went back and forth like three or four more times was stupid. The thing about that first Giant nWo heel turn was that it was actually a fallback plan. WCW was so sure Davey Boy Smith was going to jump to their company and be the next member of the nWo that they pretty much told us the week before, "The nWo is adding a new member next week." Then, Vince slid a 5-year deal in front of Bulldog and he decided to stay in the WWF at the last minute. If I'm not mistaken, the Giant was the first wrestler to join the nWo without ever having been in the WWF before, so naturally it was a big surprise. I think it opened the door for the next member (fake Sting) and the possibility of it actually being Sting was plausible. They weren't just former WWF guys anymore; they're taking anybody who will help them dominate the promotion. I never knew that about Bulldog. I still think Giant joining was a bad idea, even the first time around, for a few reasons. It made absolutely no sense for him to join kayfabe-wise. Sure it was unexpected, but I thought it was a more confusing and random swerve than anything Russo ever did. Second, he was redundant in the group because nWo already had a big man with Nash. Finally, I never thought Giant fit in well with the nWo. He didn't really have the right attitude, wasn't "cool" enough I guess would be the best way to phrase it. I'll admit though that it was the least damaging of his nWo turns. The SECOND time he joined seemed to kill off the last of the momentum he had in wCw.
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Post by Dynamite Kid on Sept 15, 2009 6:35:00 GMT -5
I loved Austin's heel turn. It's kind of like the angle I've always wanted to see - someone so possessed by desire to be the champion, to be the top dog, that they sell out to everything they hate most.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Sept 15, 2009 7:13:17 GMT -5
I've said it many times on here but Luger in 91, when he won the World Title. So uncalled for and ill-thought out.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 15, 2009 13:09:25 GMT -5
I don't know if this counts, but when Buff Bagwell came back from his serious neck injury, the crowd was behind him when he stood up to Big Poppa Pump after he came out and attacked Rick Steiner. Then Buff joins in the attack on Rick, rejoining the nWo and potentially killing any babyface momentum against the nWo. That is the definition my friend. And it does count as a turn because Buff had been acting as a face.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on Sept 15, 2009 16:44:43 GMT -5
Bret Hart's heel turn in the WWF is probably the most complex of all time and definately one of the all time greatest. As I from England he technically never turned heel anyway ;D
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 15, 2009 17:28:44 GMT -5
Alex Shelley joining the Embassy in 2005 ROH. Don't get me wrong, it lead to the fantastic team-up of Shelley and Jimmy Rave, as well as some great matches against Generation Next, but it always got to me how Shelley was primed to become possibly the most over face in the company, if we go by live crowd reactions, chasing after the heel champion who had betrayed him (Aries), a heel champion who didn't to much to signify a face turn...yet it was Shelley who turned heel. I was always hoping for the eventual huge blowoff match of the feud between a face Shelley and a heel Aries, but outside of their one title match at Manhattan Mayhem, it never really materialized. I know What you mean,I never understood why they turned shelly heel Well, now that I've thought about it, there could be one factor: I may be remembering wrong, but I think summer 2005 was around the time that Shelley returned to TNA (when Scott D'Amore took over the booking), and maybe Gabe was looking at it as "Shelley could go at any time if TNA chooses, Aries isn't going anywhere, let's switch 'em up." And it is true: near the end of his reign and right after, Aries was getting some face pops. But, still, the audience was red hot for Shelley to topple Aries around that time, and it's a pity the moment never really came.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Sept 15, 2009 23:18:01 GMT -5
Yeah, gotta agree with Austin, Sting, and Goldberg. Their heel turns were poorly thought out and executed though looking back Sting actually got a decent reaction at times as a heel. I would like to add Booker T joining the New Blood and turning him heel not long after he entered the WWE to this list. Until King Booker, I always felt that Booker was like Sting in that he was more entertaining and interesting as a face. I thought it was stupid that Booker was suddenly evil because he came from WCW despite being a face before WCW shut down. Him joining the New Blood made sense but then I was confused as to who the good guys were and who the bad guys were for several years. While I agree about Booker in the Alliance, when did he join the New Blood? Yeah, he was lumped into that group, as were all of the underpushed guys, when it was first formed, but he was one of the first to push back against it and side with the Millionaire's Club. He then joined the anti-New Blood group The Misfits In Action before winning the world title.
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Post by Dolph Zalgo on Sept 16, 2009 0:20:24 GMT -5
ANY Sting heel turn. Nobody ever buys it. This. Especially when he was in MEM. However, that was partially his fault since he did not act like a heel. All the others were perfect, especially Nash was able to turn the fans against him in one single promo, but Sting still high-fived the fans on his entrance, did not participate in beatdowns, did not obviously cheat, did not insult people. What kind of heel is that? It's actually easier to get heel heat, but Sting somehow is not able or willing to.
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Post by gamblore on Sept 16, 2009 2:18:13 GMT -5
ANY Sting heel turn. Nobody ever buys it. This. Especially when he was in MEM. However, that was partially his fault since he did not act like a heel. All the others were perfect, especially Nash was able to turn the fans against him in one single promo, but Sting still high-fived the fans on his entrance, did not participate in beatdowns, did not obviously cheat, did not insult people. What kind of heel is that? It's actually easier to get heel heat, but Sting somehow is not able or willing to. Call me crazy, but I think that was intentional. TNA probably realized that trying to get Sting over as a heel would be a futile effort, so they kept him technically as a face even though he was aligned with a heel group. He wasn't supposed to be acting like a heel. The whole point was that he was the only honorable man in the MEM. He was also portrayed as being in denial and desparately trying to convince himself that the MEM really was dedicated to teaching respect and then eventually passing the torch. The other members paid lip service to this idea and told Sting what he wanted to hear just to get him on board. Eventually the MEM's actions were becoming so blatantly wrong that Sting couldn't rationalize them away anymore, so he took over from Angle and made a last ditch effort to reform the MEM. By then it was too late, and they ended up kicking him out. I thought it was a pretty creative way to get Sting involved with the stable and probably the closest to a legit heel turn we'll ever get for him. Or to use a Final Fantasy VI analogy, Sting was to the MEM what General Leo was to the Empire.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Sept 16, 2009 4:05:45 GMT -5
ANY Sting heel turn. Nobody ever buys it. This. Especially when he was in MEM. However, that was partially his fault since he did not act like a heel. All the others were perfect, especially Nash was able to turn the fans against him in one single promo, but Sting still high-fived the fans on his entrance, did not participate in beatdowns, did not obviously cheat, did not insult people. What kind of heel is that? It's actually easier to get heel heat, but Sting somehow is not able or willing to. I kind of liked this.....it made Sting a reluctant heel, which is a VERY rare thing.....and it's probably the closest you'd ever have to a Sting heel run that actually worked.
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Post by W?Y on Sept 16, 2009 8:52:53 GMT -5
Alex Shelley joining the Embassy in 2005 ROH. Don't get me wrong, it lead to the fantastic team-up of Shelley and Jimmy Rave, as well as some great matches against Generation Next, but it always got to me how Shelley was primed to become possibly the most over face in the company, if we go by live crowd reactions, chasing after the heel champion who had betrayed him (Aries), a heel champion who didn't to much to signify a face turn...yet it was Shelley who turned heel. I was always hoping for the eventual huge blowoff match of the feud between a face Shelley and a heel Aries, but outside of their one title match at Manhattan Mayhem, it never really materialized. Thank you! I never understood, when watching the video of the Gen Next/Embassy feud, how Alex Shelley became the heel when Aries and the gang were the guys beating him up like crazy. Sure, the Embassy was super heel and that's what made him a heel, but it's still hard to believe how fast Aries, Strong and Evans turned face. Maybe it's a testament to how good The Embassy were as heels...
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Sept 16, 2009 12:24:36 GMT -5
I've said it many times on here but Luger in 91, when he won the World Title. So uncalled for and ill-thought out. I'll agree with this one. I remember catching the end of the match as an 8 year old mark and pulling for Lex to finally win the title, then...huh? Having grown up and gained a different perspective on things, I look back on it and...huh?
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Post by chunkylover53 on Sept 17, 2009 14:16:14 GMT -5
Bret Hart's heel turn in the WWF is probably the most complex of all time and definately one of the all time greatest. As I from England he technically never turned heel anyway ;D He was a heel in the United States, and a face everywhere else. Just moving to England from Turkey at the time, he was a face to me. I thought as a 10 year old mark that was an awesome move to be a heel in one place and a face everywhere else without changing his character.
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