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Post by nyfleaman on Dec 21, 2009 0:46:04 GMT -5
Easily the Flair match at WrestleMania 24. People confuse "memorable moment" with "great match". If it wasn't a Ric Flair retirement match, people wouldn't have said much about it. Also, the ending was incredibly stupid and melodramatic. "I'm sorry... I love you". You just called him "Old Yeller" six days ago. Make up your mind. I don't mean any disrespect to you by any means, but thre Ric Flair match was overflowing with psychology. Some fans seem to confuse ring psychology with working the arm for 30 minutes or so to prevent your opponent from hitting a clothesline or something. However, ring psychology is about creating a story within a match and making the audience feel your emotion. Also, you can't take out the fact that this was Ric Flair's retirement match because that was the story of the match. It had to be, as there was nothing that would have made that match more important, including a world title being on the line. There is a point in the Ric Flair/HBK match where Shawn is tuning up the band and, as JR puts it "can't pull the trigger" after looking into Ric Flair's eyes. He hesitates, and Flair capitalizes, slapping on the figure four. The story of the match was whether or not HBK had the heart to retire his idol, his role model, his child hood hero. Then there is a moment where HBK is tuning up the band and ready to finish Flair off, and Flair responds with the greatest counter I've ever seen to Sweet Chin Music: he simply just stayed down. Michaels is pleading with Flair, practically begging him to get up. At that point, Flair simply can't come to terms with the end of his career. He would stay down forever if he could to avoid the end. Finally, as Ric Flair gets to his feet when Shawn is tuning up the band for the final time, Flair has tears in his eyes and is telling Shawn to come on. He has accepted the fact that he can not hang with the best wrestler in the world at that moment. He has accepted his fate at the hands of HBK. Shawn's "I'm sorry...I love you..." is his acceptance of his own fate. He has to be the one to end Ric Flair's career, not because he wanted to, but because Flair wants his career ended by the best. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the greatest story ever told in a wrestling ring. Overrated? Oh hell no. This was an emotional roller coaster and a hell of a great match. Yeah, and then a year and a half later he un-retires to lose to Hulk Hogan. That's why the match, at least to me now, is doesn't have the drama.
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barley96
Dennis Stamp
This is the biggest Mickie James mark
Posts: 4,170
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Post by barley96 on Dec 21, 2009 0:48:43 GMT -5
HBK vs Hogan - The selling by HBK was ridiculous and Hogan's lack of wrestling is self explanatory.
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Post by Jimichiro Likes Erick Rowan on Dec 21, 2009 0:59:09 GMT -5
I like a lot of these matches.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 3:14:36 GMT -5
HBK vs Hogan - The selling by HBK was ridiculous and Hogan's lack of wrestling is self explanatory. a match has to be rated for it to be over rated first... this match is only memorable for HBK's selling and his promo work before it... its more considered a joke match than anything else now... i wouldn't call it over rated since its not really rated extremely high
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Post by lemonyellowson on Dec 21, 2009 5:52:56 GMT -5
there are no bad hbk matches. none.
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Post by Thank You Shawn on Dec 21, 2009 5:54:49 GMT -5
IMHO I believe he's the greatest wrestler I've ever witnessed so I don't think any of his matches are "overrated"
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Post by hbk4ever09 on Dec 21, 2009 8:01:44 GMT -5
As shown in a Botchamania vid, in the Ironman Hart pretty much no-sold 20 straight minutes of HBK working his arm, making much of the match useless. The match was much more memorable in the last 30 mins as Hart got a majority of the offense in, and HBK sold well as always. The last ten minutes at least usually get praised as well. Still think it was better than Cena/Orton...
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Post by no2humanorchid on Dec 21, 2009 11:06:40 GMT -5
IMHO I believe he's the greatest wrestler I've ever witnessed so I don't think any of his matches are "overrated" This
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slashandburn
Team Rocket
Look Vegeta! A pokemon...I'm gonna catch it...
Posts: 913
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Post by slashandburn on Dec 21, 2009 19:37:40 GMT -5
I don't get the endless love for the Flair retirement match. Sure it was a very good match, great even, but in my opinion it's not the instant classic that people put it over as. It's nowhere near as good as his 'Mania matches against Taker or Angle.
That said, his match in the UK against Cena was very meh to me.
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Post by Big Daddy Bad Booking on Dec 21, 2009 20:33:52 GMT -5
The near hour long in the UK with Cena is the only one that I feel is overrated. They basically went an hour for the sake of going an hour IMO. Orton vs. Edge should have happened too, but Orton hated a lamp, so that didn't happen. For all the crappy skits that happened on RAW in that time, I'd gladly take an hour of HBK/Cena to some crap segment.
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Marvelously Mediocre
Fry's dog Seymour
Beggin' for a little SWAGGAH!
Haha. What a story Mark.
Posts: 21,224
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Post by Marvelously Mediocre on Dec 21, 2009 20:43:07 GMT -5
Easily the Flair match at WrestleMania 24. People confuse "memorable moment" with "great match". If it wasn't a Ric Flair retirement match, people wouldn't have said much about it. Also, the ending was incredibly stupid and melodramatic. "I'm sorry... I love you". You just called him "Old Yeller" six days ago. Make up your mind. I don't mean any disrespect to you by any means, but thre Ric Flair match was overflowing with psychology. Some fans seem to confuse ring psychology with working the arm for 30 minutes or so to prevent your opponent from hitting a clothesline or something. However, ring psychology is about creating a story within a match and making the audience feel your emotion. Also, you can't take out the fact that this was Ric Flair's retirement match because that was the story of the match. It had to be, as there was nothing that would have made that match more important, including a world title being on the line. There is a point in the Ric Flair/HBK match where Shawn is tuning up the band and, as JR puts it "can't pull the trigger" after looking into Ric Flair's eyes. He hesitates, and Flair capitalizes, slapping on the figure four. The story of the match was whether or not HBK had the heart to retire his idol, his role model, his child hood hero. Then there is a moment where HBK is tuning up the band and ready to finish Flair off, and Flair responds with the greatest counter I've ever seen to Sweet Chin Music: he simply just stayed down. Michaels is pleading with Flair, practically begging him to get up. At that point, Flair simply can't come to terms with the end of his career. He would stay down forever if he could to avoid the end. Finally, as Ric Flair gets to his feet when Shawn is tuning up the band for the final time, Flair has tears in his eyes and is telling Shawn to come on. He has accepted the fact that he can not hang with the best wrestler in the world at that moment. He has accepted his fate at the hands of HBK. Shawn's "I'm sorry...I love you..." is his acceptance of his own fate. He has to be the one to end Ric Flair's career, not because he wanted to, but because Flair wants his career ended by the best. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the greatest story ever told in a wrestling ring. Overrated? Oh hell no. This was an emotional roller coaster and a hell of a great match. Thankyou I couldn't have put it better myself. The emotional buildup in that match and the amazing, heartbreaking climax was the most I've ever been sucked in to a wrestling match.
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Post by Citizen Snips on Dec 22, 2009 0:30:55 GMT -5
HBK vs Hogan - The selling by HBK was ridiculous and Hogan's lack of wrestling is self explanatory. That's more of a cult classic than an actual classic.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 22, 2009 0:31:59 GMT -5
Here's my list of all HBK's over rated matches, in my opinion:
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 0:36:52 GMT -5
I hear hbk/bret ironman mentioned as overrated almost any time it's discussed.
I don't think there are many people rating it highly, for it to be "overrated". It seems to get disdain from the majority, at least.
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Post by Germansuplex on Dec 23, 2009 6:38:33 GMT -5
I don't mean any disrespect to you by any means, but thre Ric Flair match was overflowing with psychology. Some fans seem to confuse ring psychology with working the arm for 30 minutes or so to prevent your opponent from hitting a clothesline or something. However, ring psychology is about creating a story within a match and making the audience feel your emotion. Also, you can't take out the fact that this was Ric Flair's retirement match because that was the story of the match. It had to be, as there was nothing that would have made that match more important, including a world title being on the line. There is a point in the Ric Flair/HBK match where Shawn is tuning up the band and, as JR puts it "can't pull the trigger" after looking into Ric Flair's eyes. He hesitates, and Flair capitalizes, slapping on the figure four. The story of the match was whether or not HBK had the heart to retire his idol, his role model, his child hood hero. Then there is a moment where HBK is tuning up the band and ready to finish Flair off, and Flair responds with the greatest counter I've ever seen to Sweet Chin Music: he simply just stayed down. Michaels is pleading with Flair, practically begging him to get up. At that point, Flair simply can't come to terms with the end of his career. He would stay down forever if he could to avoid the end. Finally, as Ric Flair gets to his feet when Shawn is tuning up the band for the final time, Flair has tears in his eyes and is telling Shawn to come on. He has accepted the fact that he can not hang with the best wrestler in the world at that moment. He has accepted his fate at the hands of HBK. Shawn's "I'm sorry...I love you..." is his acceptance of his own fate. He has to be the one to end Ric Flair's career, not because he wanted to, but because Flair wants his career ended by the best. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the greatest story ever told in a wrestling ring. Overrated? Oh hell no. This was an emotional roller coaster and a hell of a great match. A thousand times this.
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azz0r
Dennis Stamp
Ex 4 month ruling Wrestlecrap PPV Prediction Champion
Posts: 3,696
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Post by azz0r on Dec 23, 2009 7:04:15 GMT -5
As shown in a Botchamania vid, in the Ironman Hart pretty much no-sold 20 straight minutes of HBK working his arm, making much of the match useless. The match was much more memorable in the last 30 mins as Hart got a majority of the offense in, and HBK sold well as always. The last ten minutes at least usually get praised as well. Still think it was better than Cena/Orton... Any idea which botchamania it was?
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,050
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Post by repomark on Dec 23, 2009 8:50:00 GMT -5
I am a huge HBK fan and regard him as the best in ring worker of all time, so I am probably not the best person to ask on this one lol.
However, those that I did not rate as highly as some:
vs Bret Hitman Hart (Survivor Series 1992) - a lot of people think that this was a classic but whilst I enjoyed it I felt it fell a little short of the mark.
vs Razor Ramon (Summerslam 95) Ladder Match - a lot of people rate this match as better than their (IMO) classic at WM10. I think it is a good match but the botched finish where the belt wont come loose for Shawn twice really killed it for me.
vs Bret Hitman Hart (WM12) Iron Man Match - I thought it desperately needed a couple of falls during the hour to break it up a bit rather than finishing 0-0. Loved the last ten minutes and the finish but it is a pretty tough watch in one sitting other than that
vs Stone Cold Steve Austin (WM14) - Austin winning the belt for the first time is one of my favourite ever WWE moments, but this match is again a very tough watch as Shawn is clearly in immense pain through out.
vs Triple H (Bad Blood 2004) Hell In A Cell - just too long and as some have already said felt a little forced. We had already had too much Shawn v Hunter recently at that time to really get into this in my view
vs Vince McMahon (WM22) Street Fight - this was rated as the match of the year by some magazine (was it Pro Wrestling Illustrated?) and whilst I enjoyed it, the match itself was just an entertaining squash and not worthy of that acolade.
Much easier for me to name Shawn matches I rate highly - all of his matches with Taker from Ground Zero, Bad Blood through to WM25 I absolutely love, the match with Flair WM24, most of his matches with Triple H, Shelton Benjamin in the Gold Rush tournament, Razor Ramon WM10, Diesel Good Friends Better Enemies, Vader Summerslam 96, Mankind Mind Games, Jericho WM19, comedy overselling Summerslam 05 Hogan, vs Benoit and Triple H at WM20 and Backlash 04, vs Cena at WM23 and on Raw in London......could keep going but I flying off the topic of the thread.
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default
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Blames Everything On Snitsky. Yes, Even THAT.
Posts: 17,056
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Post by default on Dec 23, 2009 9:13:39 GMT -5
To this say, the WM12 Iron Man bores me beyond belief. It's like instead of cereal, they put a prize at the bottom of a jar of mollasses. By the time you pour it out and get it, it's just sorta "meh".
The HBK vs. Bret Hart Ladder match from Smack 'Em Whack 'Em is overrated too, imo. I know alot of people that used to hype up that match saying how HBK "stole" the idea from Bret. Had they seen it, they'd understand why it was shelved. Razor and HBK's two ladder matches were both twice as good.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 9:19:05 GMT -5
I can see some of these being overrated, but not so much bad. Big difference in this case.
I always thought the Jericho matches were only decent, which sucks as both of them are damn good. If you ask me, they set the bar VERY high at Wrestlemania 19 and have not even been close to that caliber, both in feud and the match itself.
Taker and Michaels always tear the house down every time. Even their little mini-encounter at the Rumble a few years ago made that Rumble. They hadn't thrown down in ages and when Rated RKO got taken out and we were down to them two I just thought "HO LEE s*** HERE WE GO!!!" And then JBL's commentary sold it even further asking "how long [it had] been"...even though Lawler's little "I dunno if we've ever seen it..." seemed bizarre (that's like saying that you can't recall seeing Austin/Rock throw down).
All the Taker/Michaels encounters and the feuds leading to them deserve all the praise they get IMO. And their WM25 match IS the Match of the Year, I don't care what anyone else says. That match is the reason people will remember "The 24th Anniversary of Wrestlemania".
The Michaels/Austin match was the first time I ever ordered a PPV and I knew nothing of Michaels having a foot out the door already at the time. I will give him props for putting on a decent match despite the back injury, and the feud going into that one especially with bringing Tyson into it was awesome. I guess it could be seen as overrated, but I got a soft spot for it.
The Ironman match needed some pinfalls or something to make it not seem like a legit 60 minute match. They kept stuffing down our throats that the idea was going to be revolutionary and only a feud of this level could bring this concept about, and then they completely ignored it and had a normal match. If you're gonna do a tie (which strangely enough I don't think they've done with an Ironman match since, I could be wrong though), make it a 2-2 or 3-3 score. Even a 1-1 score is unimpressive. The fact they got nothing in 60 minutes ruined the entire point of tacking the Ironman gimmick to the match in the first place.
Flair/HBK matchwise was just okay, but for the moment and the story of it all it shall always remain classic to me.
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Post by Johawn on Dec 23, 2009 9:50:36 GMT -5
I don't think a single match he has had with Jericho has been anything more than ok. Even WM19? That's my favourite match of all time. Aside from being just a good one to watch, the story to it was amazing. Jericho, at the top of his game, decides he's better than Michaels, a man who helped open the door to guys like him to get to the top. A hero to him, almost a mentor, and Jericho wants to prove that he's far surpassed him. But whatever he does when they finally stand toe to toe is just not quite good enough. He gives it everything, even Shawn Michaels' own moves, whether because he's arrogant and wants to show he can even do SCM (Sweet Chin Music, not "SHUT CHER MOUTH!") better than its creator, or because he thinks that it's the only thing that works. He loses, the better man wins, and he's crying because he knows he just wasn't good enough. He goes to congratulate the victor, but he's Jericho. He knows he's better, and he got unlucky. He ball shots HBK and proves, in his own mind, that he's the real winner. Epic.
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