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Post by mauled on Dec 23, 2009 11:07:12 GMT -5
Overrated hmm
Vs Crush, King of the Ring 93 Just really not very good.
Vs Perfect Summerslam 93 Even HBK himself has said he does not think this match is any good.
Vs Diesel WM11 While argubly the best match on that card it just seemed like HBK went over while Big Daddy was a bit clueless and not so cool which is not good as Diesel was staying champ.
Curtain Call 96 As champ he should have not done and known better.
Vs WM14 Trips himself says he spent the whole wrestlemania weekend trying to get HBK to turn up and it really shows he does not want to be there whether he is hamming up his bad back during the match (Perfect didnt in his SS91 match) or chewing gum when Tyson supposedly knocked him out. Austin thinks this was there worst match and he was probably right.
Vs Trips 2 out of 3 falls. Never liked this match seemed really self indulgent and just felt like him giving the belt back to his best buddy.
Vs Flair WM24 Not HBK's fault but Flair clearly botches several moves and the whole "I love you ending" just made me groan.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Dec 23, 2009 15:05:17 GMT -5
I don't mean any disrespect to you by any means, but thre Ric Flair match was overflowing with psychology. Some fans seem to confuse ring psychology with working the arm for 30 minutes or so to prevent your opponent from hitting a clothesline or something. However, ring psychology is about creating a story within a match and making the audience feel your emotion. Also, you can't take out the fact that this was Ric Flair's retirement match because that was the story of the match. It had to be, as there was nothing that would have made that match more important, including a world title being on the line. There is a point in the Ric Flair/HBK match where Shawn is tuning up the band and, as JR puts it "can't pull the trigger" after looking into Ric Flair's eyes. He hesitates, and Flair capitalizes, slapping on the figure four. The story of the match was whether or not HBK had the heart to retire his idol, his role model, his child hood hero. Then there is a moment where HBK is tuning up the band and ready to finish Flair off, and Flair responds with the greatest counter I've ever seen to Sweet Chin Music: he simply just stayed down. Michaels is pleading with Flair, practically begging him to get up. At that point, Flair simply can't come to terms with the end of his career. He would stay down forever if he could to avoid the end. Finally, as Ric Flair gets to his feet when Shawn is tuning up the band for the final time, Flair has tears in his eyes and is telling Shawn to come on. He has accepted the fact that he can not hang with the best wrestler in the world at that moment. He has accepted his fate at the hands of HBK. Shawn's "I'm sorry...I love you..." is his acceptance of his own fate. He has to be the one to end Ric Flair's career, not because he wanted to, but because Flair wants his career ended by the best. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the greatest story ever told in a wrestling ring. Overrated? Oh hell no. This was an emotional roller coaster and a hell of a great match. Couldn't have said it better. And yes, I'm a total Flair mark, but that aside, this was the first match in I couldn't tell you how long that had me on the edge of my seat, my hands up near my chin in that way you usually see in maternity ward waiting rooms, and those butterflies in my stomach. And the rest of the card was killed after that match. I also have to agree with our mod's input. That Iron Man match put me to sleep, and I was excited as hell to see it.
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Post by don on Dec 23, 2009 15:28:18 GMT -5
In defense of the "gimmick matches" like the ladder matches and the Iron Man match, I think that it is important to look at them in their time period. That ladder match is really tame compared to the stuff that the Hardy Boyz, Dudley Boyz, and Edge & Christian would later come up with. But Shawn's was the first one (at least on a large platform). HBK and Razor didn't have any template to use. At the time of that match, it was one of the most innovative matches ever.
The iron man match failed because of bad booking, not because of bad wrestling. Since the match is over an hour long, they had to pace themselves, meaning about 25 minutes of armbars and what not. The fact that no falls occured in this match made it boring. Personally, I would have had HBK score a quick win after about 15 minutes. Then, Bret Hart snaps and works the rest of the match as the defacto heel, getting two back to back victories on HBK. Eventually, they are tied and then they go into overtime. That would have had much more drama, in my opinion. However, once again, it was the first one and the bookers didn't do it justice. I know the story that they were trying to tell, but I don't care for it. The bookers/agents today are much better at structuring these types of matches. I love spots like the heel getting intentionally dq'ed in order to gain the upper hand.
The most overrated HBK match to me is that hour-long match he had with Cena on Raw. I don't think that it was necessarily a bad match; it just bored me. It had it's moments, but I thought that they could have shaved a good portion of the match off and still had a really nice outing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 15:43:07 GMT -5
All of them. HBK is to wrestling what Mariah Carey is to wrestling.
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Post by Trout Stratus on Dec 23, 2009 17:23:48 GMT -5
Not every great wrestler can put on a 5 star match and HBK is no exception but when his career is all said and done I know where not gunna be sitting here saying, well his match with so and so could've been better, no, we are gunna look back at his work in amazment and say, there will never be another HBK...
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MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
Home of the 5-time, 5-time, 5-time, 5-time 5-time Super Bowl Champion 49ers-and Wrestlemania 31
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Dec 23, 2009 17:25:55 GMT -5
I have to say the Jericho match at WM19. The first half had a lot of stalling and resting.
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Post by King Boo on Dec 23, 2009 17:51:54 GMT -5
I don't think a single match he has had with Jericho has been anything more than ok. Even WM19? That's my favourite match of all time. Aside from being just a good one to watch, the story to it was amazing. Jericho, at the top of his game, decides he's better than Michaels, a man who helped open the door to guys like him to get to the top. A hero to him, almost a mentor, and Jericho wants to prove that he's far surpassed him. But whatever he does when they finally stand toe to toe is just not quite good enough. He gives it everything, even Shawn Michaels' own moves, whether because he's arrogant and wants to show he can even do SCM (Sweet Chin Music, not "SHUT CHER MOUTH!") better than its creator, or because he thinks that it's the only thing that works. He loses, the better man wins, and he's crying because he knows he just wasn't good enough. He goes to congratulate the victor, but he's Jericho. He knows he's better, and he got unlucky. He ball shots HBK and proves, in his own mind, that he's the real winner. Epic. You've read my mind and that's creepy.
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Post by skiller on Dec 23, 2009 18:09:29 GMT -5
The iron man match failed because of bad booking, not because of bad wrestling. Since the match is over an hour long, they had to pace themselves, meaning about 25 minutes of armbars and what not. The fact that no falls occured in this match made it boring. Personally, I would have had HBK score a quick win after about 15 minutes. Then, Bret Hart snaps and works the rest of the match as the defacto heel, getting two back to back victories on HBK. Eventually, they are tied and then they go into overtime. That would have had much more drama, in my opinion. However, once again, it was the first one and the bookers didn't do it justice. I know the story that they were trying to tell, but I don't care for it. The bookers/agents today are much better at structuring these types of matches. I love spots like the heel getting intentionally dq'ed in order to gain the upper hand. Personally I would have had Bret take the lead and take a fall in the early parts of the match. Then you would have HBK desperately trying to balance the score. He'd get a flash pin, tying up the match and you could keep the end with HBK refusing to quit to the sharpshooter along with the sudden death portion. The way they did the match was a colossal waste of gimmick. If they just wanted a long match, they shouldn't have added the Iron Man stipulation and just gone long.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Dec 23, 2009 19:53:14 GMT -5
Easily the Flair match at WrestleMania 24. People confuse "memorable moment" with "great match". If it wasn't a Ric Flair retirement match, people wouldn't have said much about it. Also, the ending was incredibly stupid and melodramatic. "I'm sorry... I love you". You just called him "Old Yeller" six days ago. Make up your mind. you think that boy didn't love Yeller?
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Post by Robbymac on Dec 23, 2009 20:08:07 GMT -5
What annoys me is when people say "Well if it wasn't Flair's retirement the match, and didn't have that ending we wouldn't talk about it the way we do"
Well of course not.
That's like saying The Miracle on Ice wouldn't have been remembered as such a great game if the Russians had won.
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Post by Big Daddy Bad Booking on Dec 23, 2009 21:42:01 GMT -5
The iron man match failed because of bad booking, not because of bad wrestling. Since the match is over an hour long, they had to pace themselves, meaning about 25 minutes of armbars and what not. The fact that no falls occured in this match made it boring. Personally, I would have had HBK score a quick win after about 15 minutes. Then, Bret Hart snaps and works the rest of the match as the defacto heel, getting two back to back victories on HBK. Eventually, they are tied and then they go into overtime. That would have had much more drama, in my opinion. However, once again, it was the first one and the bookers didn't do it justice. I know the story that they were trying to tell, but I don't care for it. The bookers/agents today are much better at structuring these types of matches. I love spots like the heel getting intentionally dq'ed in order to gain the upper hand. Personally I would have had Bret take the lead and take a fall in the early parts of the match. Then you would have HBK desperately trying to balance the score. He'd get a flash pin, tying up the match and you could keep the end with HBK refusing to quit to the sharpshooter along with the sudden death portion. The way they did the match was a colossal waste of gimmick. If they just wanted a long match, they shouldn't have added the Iron Man stipulation and just gone long. Michaels revealed in his book that there was a reason why this match was done that way: Pat Patterson, who booked the match, thought that with too many (or any) falls in the 60 minute time frame, then it would make both men look weak, and therefore the overtime was used. The no falls was made to make both men look extraodinary, and though I didn't agree with it, I also thought it worked.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Dec 23, 2009 22:52:28 GMT -5
This y ear's Undertaker match. I'm sorry. It wasn't that great. It certainly wasn't Match of The Year, and definetly not Match of The Decade, like I heard a few people calling it. It was a good match, but it was NOTHING mind blowingly amazing.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Dec 23, 2009 22:56:39 GMT -5
his match with mick foley in 1996. While it is a good match (even foley said it was his best ever) they have both been in far better matches. Depends on how you mean. If you're talking for that style of wrestling, no, I don't think Foley's ever been in a better match than this. If we take his great brawls and dramatic moments into account, they yeah, he has, but for what passed for "pure wrestling" for Foley, this was easily one of his best, if not THE best. If we're taking into account the brawling and the hardcore stuff, then not even close, no.
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Post by noleafclover1980 on Dec 23, 2009 23:13:57 GMT -5
I dunno which is worse, that you said that, or that you stole a joke from a decade old Friar's Club roast of Drew Carey.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2009 12:04:00 GMT -5
This times a million, I don't know what your definition of a "great match" is but I would call this one it and it being Flair's retirement match made it that much greater as the person I've quoted has pointed out. Wrestling isn't about a bunch of flashy moves it's about telling a story and sucking the fans into the match and this match did both perfectly. I'll say the same about the Bret Hart iron man match too that seems to get a lot of flack online, the "storytelling" in that match was fantastic. What was the storytelling in that match? The story they told was simple: neither wrestler was man enough to take a fall. The initial plan was to go the time limit draw tied at 2-2. Then, it was dropped to 1-1. Both men were wary of a double-cross because the last fall was supposed to be near the end of the match. All it could have taken was one guy not being man enough to accept the double-pin and lift his shoulder. As much of a Bret fan as I am, I wouldn't have been surprised one bit if Bret was the uncooperative one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2009 12:28:56 GMT -5
<i>All of them. HBK is to wrestling what Mariah Carey is to wrestling. </i> I dunno which is worse, that you said that, or that you stole a joke from a decade old Friar's Club roast of Drew Carey. I've never liked any of HBK's stuff. I'm not going to invent a NEW joke for someone like HBK.
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Post by foreveryoung on Dec 24, 2009 13:09:39 GMT -5
I think alot his matches are overrated. he is a dramatic overseller IMO always has been. And whats he still doing around doing comedy skits with triple H at 40 some years old? Is there nothing else productive he can do with the company besides what he did last week on raw? Triple H too. Whats wrong with a more serious role at this point?
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Post by skiller on Dec 25, 2009 6:56:47 GMT -5
What was the storytelling in that match? The story they told was simple: neither wrestler was man enough to take a fall. The initial plan was to go the time limit draw tied at 2-2. Then, it was dropped to 1-1. Both men were wary of a double-cross because the last fall was supposed to be near the end of the match. All it could have taken was one guy not being man enough to accept the double-pin and lift his shoulder. As much of a Bret fan as I am, I wouldn't have been surprised one bit if Bret was the uncooperative one. Well that sucks. But it's also not surprising. Neither guy would have looked worse taking a fall against the other. They were at that point the two guys they pushed above and beyond anyone else. Whatever, wrestling politics is an ugly business.
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Post by tap on Dec 25, 2009 12:17:13 GMT -5
This y ear's Undertaker match. I'm sorry. It wasn't that great. It certainly wasn't Match of The Year, and definetly not Match of The Decade, like I heard a few people calling it. It was a good match, but it was NOTHING mind blowingly amazing. And, I'll throw my hat in for the 2008 Jericho/HBK feud. A lot of it felt very tired to me.
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"Hollywood" Cactus Matt
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by "Hollywood" Cactus Matt on Dec 25, 2009 14:40:44 GMT -5
IMHO I believe he's the greatest wrestler I've ever witnessed so I don't think any of his matches are "overrated" I cannot agree more. Even his "bad" matches are better than a lot of "classics."
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