azz0r
Dennis Stamp
Ex 4 month ruling Wrestlecrap PPV Prediction Champion
Posts: 3,696
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Post by azz0r on Dec 9, 2009 14:22:01 GMT -5
So I watched wrestling with shadows again today.
One thing that struck me is how Bret was so passionate about his character and how turning heel meant he couldnt go back to being face due to him slagging off the USA.
This got me wondering, in an age where Morrison turns face....just because, do characters matter anymore? Was Bret part of the dying race?
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Post by The Blue Blazer on Dec 9, 2009 14:24:04 GMT -5
So I watched wrestling with shadows again today. One thing that struck me is how Bret was so passionate about his character and how turning heel meant he couldnt go back to being face due to him slagging off the USA. This got me wondering, in an age where Morrison turns face....just because, do characters matter anymore? Was Bret part of the dying race? I think the thing about Bret Hart's heel turn was that he alienated an entire country. He would have had to do something really dramatic to turn him back. |
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azz0r
Dennis Stamp
Ex 4 month ruling Wrestlecrap PPV Prediction Champion
Posts: 3,696
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Post by azz0r on Dec 9, 2009 14:25:54 GMT -5
It's not like the WCW fans didn't know about it though. The WWF could have run some angle to turn him face again.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 9, 2009 14:27:47 GMT -5
So I watched wrestling with shadows again today. One thing that struck me is how Bret was so passionate about his character and how turning heel meant he couldnt go back to being face due to him slagging off the USA. This got me wondering, in an age where Morrison turns face....just because, do characters matter anymore? Was Bret part of the dying race? Bret was, in a way, the last real bastion of the "kayfabe" club. People who wanted to make the fans feel the emotion of a match, and believe what they saw was real. That all went away (at least in the Big Two, anyway) with the advent of the Attitude Era and the Monday Night Wars. That was when, really, wrestling became more about crazy storylines, stunts, and edginess, and less about telling a story in the ring. Bret's way of thinking still exists, in some of the smaller, indy promotions. and I've even seen a lot of that mentality in guys like CM Punk. But one look at this past Monday's RAW will show you that idea of kayfabe is as good as dead. |
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Post by mauled on Dec 9, 2009 15:03:42 GMT -5
Your right but its ironic though cause from a creative stand point that was argubly the most interesting and best thing Bret ever did. Being a bad guy in the states but a good guy everywhere else is so cool.
And shame on Vince for not bringing out another Bret DVD with some his promos from this time.
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Post by shamana on Dec 9, 2009 15:53:06 GMT -5
Bret's way of thinking still exists, in some of the smaller, indy promotions. and I've even seen a lot of that mentality in guys like CM Punk. But one look at this past Monday's RAW will show you that idea of kayfabe is as good as dead. I think it really depends on the promotion, but yeah, the bigger ones change status pretty often. Not that it's a bad thing, when it happens organically (as in, seems like a natural or at least believable extension of the wrestler's gimmick and a certain situation). Didn't Jim Cornette talk about how in the good old days heels and faces wouldn't even drink in the same bar, in their off hours, and how if one group had already gone in some club the other would have to find some other place? It might be interesting to see if he brings this philosophy to RoH. |
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Post by jerishow on Dec 9, 2009 15:56:35 GMT -5
Bret's way of thinking still exists, in some of the smaller, indy promotions. and I've even seen a lot of that mentality in guys like CM Punk. But one look at this past Monday's RAW will show you that idea of kayfabe is as good as dead. I think it really depends on the promotion, but yeah, the bigger ones change status pretty often. Not that it's a bad thing, when it happens organically (as in, seems like a natural or at least believable extension of the wrestler's gimmick and a certain situation). Didn't Jim Cornette talk about how in the good old days heels and faces wouldn't even drink in the same bar, in their off hours, and how if one group had already gone in some club the other would have to find some other place? It might be interesting to see if he brings this philosophy to RoH. Everyone knows wrestling is fake. There would be no point. It'd be like asking a guy who is playing a power ranger and a girl who is playing Rita to not hang out together. |
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 9, 2009 16:01:18 GMT -5
I think it really depends on the promotion, but yeah, the bigger ones change status pretty often. Not that it's a bad thing, when it happens organically (as in, seems like a natural or at least believable extension of the wrestler's gimmick and a certain situation). Didn't Jim Cornette talk about how in the good old days heels and faces wouldn't even drink in the same bar, in their off hours, and how if one group had already gone in some club the other would have to find some other place? It might be interesting to see if he brings this philosophy to RoH. Everyone knows wrestling is fake. There would be no point. It'd be like asking a guy who is playing a power ranger and a girl who is playing Rita to not hang out together. And therein lies the flaw in your theory. All of US know it's fake, but the younger kids that the WWE plays to may not. As an adult, or even an older teen, yeah, it's not going to faze you to see HHH and Orton tossing back brews at the Outback steakhouse together, or to see Toby Maguire and Wilem Dafoe chlling at Applebees. But kids see that and it ruins the illusion of the story for them. At least, that's what the older guys like Bret maintain. |
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Post by Lionheart on Dec 9, 2009 16:20:51 GMT -5
Yes, Bret had such a deep, multi-faceted character before his heel turn.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Dec 9, 2009 17:22:06 GMT -5
All of US know it's fake, but the younger kids that the WWE plays to may not. We've got wrestling zombies and leprechauns. I think most kids enjoy WWE as a live action cartoon/comic book rather than thinking it's a real sport. I know that's how I viewed it back during the New Generation. |
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 9, 2009 17:31:10 GMT -5
All of US know it's fake, but the younger kids that the WWE plays to may not. We've got wrestling zombies and leprechauns. I think most kids enjoy WWE as a live action cartoon/comic book rather than thinking it's a real sport. I know that's how I viewed it back during the New Generation. Didn't they have a fantasy sequence for Zach Ryder at some point too? WWE has pretty much given up on kayfabe entirely. |
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 9, 2009 18:10:12 GMT -5
We've got wrestling zombies and leprechauns. I think most kids enjoy WWE as a live action cartoon/comic book rather than thinking it's a real sport. I know that's how I viewed it back during the New Generation. Didn't they have a fantasy sequence for Zach Ryder at some point too? WWE has pretty much given up on kayfabe entirely. Yeah, the WWE has....but back when it was the WWF, pre-Attitude Era, it hadn't yet gotten to that point. Sure, they had wrestling garbage men, plumbers and the like, but there was still a level of secrecy about the business back then that is TOTALLY gone today. Also, you didn't really have the whole UFC/MMA "real fights" thing going on to contrast with. Sure, you had boxing, and amature wrestling and that, but there was a clear delineation between those things and pro wrestling. Now, with UFC, we (and the younger kids, too) get to see what ACTUAL barefisted punches and kicks do to someone, and we get to see exactly how submissions work (IE, there AREN'T any drawn out, "fight out of it" sequences when someone locks one in good and tight. It is OVER most times.) which is a stark contrast to the way the WWE presents it. *shrug* All of that was going a long way to say that I agree with you. ;D |
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Post by salsashark on Dec 9, 2009 18:33:02 GMT -5
Everyone knows wrestling is fake. There would be no point. It'd be like asking a guy who is playing a power ranger and a girl who is playing Rita to not hang out together. And therein lies the flaw in your theory. All of US know it's fake, but the younger kids that the WWE plays to may not. As an adult, or even an older teen, yeah, it's not going to faze you to see HHH and Orton tossing back brews at the Outback steakhouse together, or to see Toby Maguire and Wilem Dafoe chlling at Applebees. But kids see that and it ruins the illusion of the story for them. At least, that's what the older guys like Bret maintain. This is like trying to protect the idea of Santa Claus. It's a silly notion with dozens of holes in fabric of its idea. Yeah, it's fun -- enjoy it as such -- but don't pretend (for yourself or anyone else) that it's real. That is what is holding back wrestling fans from wider acceptance: when people like Cornette desperately cling to some antiquated, ridiculous old school mentality from a time long gone. Kayfabe, as it stood, deserved to die. Wrestling is a show and it should be put across as one. |
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone.
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 9, 2009 18:43:27 GMT -5
So I watched wrestling with shadows again today. One thing that struck me is how Bret was so passionate about his character and how turning heel meant he couldnt go back to being face due to him slagging off the USA. This got me wondering, in an age where Morrison turns face....just because, do characters matter anymore? Was Bret part of the dying race? I think the thing about Bret Hart's heel turn was that he alienated an entire country. He would have had to do something really dramatic to turn him back. I don't think it would have been too hard to turn him face again. However I think Bret would have believed it would undermine his character if his heelish ways were just glossed over on TV while the fans would remember. I think that's one of the issues today, many turns are too abrupt and therefore unbelievable, they also occur more often so don't mean as much as they once did. I don't think it's protecting kayfabe, I think it's just creating believable characters and that could apply to any medium. |
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 9, 2009 18:49:19 GMT -5
And therein lies the flaw in your theory. All of US know it's fake, but the younger kids that the WWE plays to may not. As an adult, or even an older teen, yeah, it's not going to faze you to see HHH and Orton tossing back brews at the Outback steakhouse together, or to see Toby Maguire and Wilem Dafoe chlling at Applebees. But kids see that and it ruins the illusion of the story for them. At least, that's what the older guys like Bret maintain. This is like trying to protect the idea of Santa Claus. It's a silly notion with dozens of holes in fabric of its idea. Yeah, it's fun -- enjoy it as such -- but don't pretend (for yourself or anyone else) that it's real. That is what is holding back wrestling fans from wider acceptance: when people like Cornette desperately cling to some antiquated, ridiculous old school mentality from a time long gone. Kayfabe, as it stood, deserved to die. Wrestling is a show and it should be put across as one. I actually sort of support this. Give the wrestler's SAG cards and stunt pay/health benefits then, if it's all just a show. Which is why I say I sort of support it. I mean, I think the WWE needs to make up it's mind what it wants to be considered more of: a legit combat sport like boxing, or MMA, or a form of entertainment like a sitcom or a movie? I think you're dead on that the time has come for them to choose, because anymore, it cannot be both. Either they own up to being a "legit" sport and cut out the Hollywood type crap they're doing and go back to the days of regional promoters and the "code of kayfabe"....or they move on and become a serialized TV show with seasons, breaks and repeats like any other show, while the wrestlers are actually acknowledged as trained actors, and given stunt doubles, or stunt pay, and SAG cards that give them health benefits. It's a murky gray area, and I'll also agree with the principle that kayfabe was gone around the time that Owen Hart died. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 9, 2009 19:16:53 GMT -5
Tons and tons of people in the wrestling industry were seduced by the ungodly amount of money that was in the business during the Attitude Era. Thus, they love to mimic it in various ways whenever they can.
However, as I've always said, the business model of the Attitude Era was flat-out unsustainable.
You can't pull the curtain back, show everybody every trick in the book, completely destroy the illusion, and then think that the fans will keep coming back once the "WOW" factor wears off.
The late 90's was a convergence of a lot of different forces coming together to make wrestling popular again, but now that the technique of winking at the camera and admitting it's all fake has been done, it cannot be undone.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 9, 2009 20:11:58 GMT -5
Tons and tons of people in the wrestling industry were seduced by the ungodly amount of money that was in the business during the Attitude Era. Thus, they love to mimic it in various ways whenever they can. However, as I've always said, the business model of the Attitude Era was flat-out unsustainable. You can't pull the curtain back, show everybody every trick in the book, completely destroy the illusion, and then think that the fans will keep coming back once the "WOW" factor wears off. The late 90's was a convergence of a lot of different forces coming together to make wrestling popular again, but now that the technique of winking at the camera and admitting it's all fake has been done, it cannot be undone. Agreed 10,000%. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, or the toothpaste back in the tube. Now that everyone and their brother "broke the fourth wall" and exposed the business in the late 90's, you cannot, unless science finds a way to invent the MID Neuralizer, take back what has been done. |
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Post by hajimenoippo on Dec 9, 2009 20:18:57 GMT -5
Kayfabe is dead, it's just another TV show like LOST or Heroes. I don't think Zachary Quinto will eat my brains, Just as much as I don't think Goldust should be in full regalia 24/7
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 9, 2009 20:26:19 GMT -5
Kayfabe is dead, it's just another TV show like LOST or Heroes. I don't think Zachary Quinto will eat my brains, Just as much as I don't think Goldust should be in full regalia 24/7 God, you just reminded me....there was a time, back in let's say the late 80's to early 90's, that seeing a face paint-wearing wrestler without said paint was a HUGE deal. Guys like Warrior, Sting, and LOD took great pains to never let themselves be seen completely bare-faced in public, or at non wrestling events. |
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Post by ozequal on Dec 9, 2009 21:10:52 GMT -5
If wrestling is just some other tv show and not a legit sport, and the companies dont want to put it over as a legit sport, then riddle me this: Why should i pay my hard earned cash to watch a PPV? There are no once-a-month PPVs for Lost, for example.
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