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Post by hajimenoippo on Dec 9, 2009 21:16:55 GMT -5
Kayfabe is dead, it's just another TV show like LOST or Heroes. I don't think Zachary Quinto will eat my brains, Just as much as I don't think Goldust should be in full regalia 24/7 God, you just reminded me....there was a time, back in let's say the late 80's to early 90's, that seeing a face paint-wearing wrestler without said paint was a HUGE deal. Guys like Warrior, Sting, and LOD took great pains to never let themselves be seen completely bare-faced in public, or at non wrestling events. Sting did Thunder in Paradise and that one Cop Movie that was direct to video sans paint. Speaking of face paint, we need more wrestlers who wear it. I'd love to see Cena wear some sting-like "war paint" If wrestling is just some other tv show and not a legit sport, and the companies dont want to put it over as a legit sport, then riddle me this: Why should i pay my hard earned cash to watch a PPV? There are no once-a-month PPVs for Lost, for example. PPV's are the climax of that month's storylines like Mid-season breaks or they act as bigger Bridging gaps to extend a story and branch out feuds from it. It's not a sport, but they have the best matches at the PPV most of the time. Oh if there was a once-a-month PPV for lost you'd buy it.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 9, 2009 21:19:38 GMT -5
God, you just reminded me....there was a time, back in let's say the late 80's to early 90's, that seeing a face paint-wearing wrestler without said paint was a HUGE deal. Guys like Warrior, Sting, and LOD took great pains to never let themselves be seen completely bare-faced in public, or at non wrestling events. Sting did Thunder in Paradise and that one Cop Movie that was direct to video sans paint. Speaking of face paint, we need more wrestlers who wear it. I'd love to see Cena wear some sting-like "war paint" I remember those...but didn't he have like, big sunglasses on in both of those? And you know, the weird thing is, that during Sting and Warrior's matches, they'd both end up pretty much paintless at the end. So it wasn't like kids NEVER saw them without it. But the times they were photographed in public without the paint were rare. They did take pains to preserve that. And I agree with you on Cena. It would be kinda cool to see him with some old school Stinger paint. ;D
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2009 21:26:53 GMT -5
Kayfabe is dead, it's just another TV show like LOST or Heroes. I don't think Zachary Quinto will eat my brains, Just as much as I don't think Goldust should be in full regalia 24/7 God, you just reminded me....there was a time, back in let's say the late 80's to early 90's, that seeing a face paint-wearing wrestler without said paint was a HUGE deal. Guys like Warrior, Sting, and LOD took great pains to never let themselves be seen completely bare-faced in public, or at non wrestling events. Wow, that's very true, now that you mention it. I still kind of feel like it's kind of a big deal to find pictures of Sting during the "surfer" era with no makeup. Even when he wasn't wearing makeup, he always had on sunglasses. The Road Warriors don't even look like themselves without the paint.
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Post by corndog on Dec 10, 2009 2:35:26 GMT -5
So I watched wrestling with shadows again today. One thing that struck me is how Bret was so passionate about his character and how turning heel meant he couldnt go back to being face due to him slagging off the USA. This got me wondering, in an age where Morrison turns face....just because, do characters matter anymore? Was Bret part of the dying race? I think the thing about Bret Hart's heel turn was that he alienated an entire country. He would have had to do something really dramatic to turn him back. From what I gathered in his book Bret didn't want to turn on America because his mother was from New York and he didn't really hate America. But it was a logical move since he was so popular overseas. Both Vince and him knew that and didn't want to hurt those markets for the WWF and Bret himself. He also didn't really want to turn heel in the first place since it would hurt his merchandise, but decided he might as well since he wouldn't have to compete with Micheals for the top face spot and Austin since he inevitably was becoming the top face. I am sure Bret could have became a face again in time. He was getting cheered even in America when he would talk trash Micheals, after Micheals' heel turn. But I doubt Bret ever would have been the top face in the company again had he stayed.
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Post by Janitor From Mars on Dec 10, 2009 3:12:20 GMT -5
Everyone knows wrestling is fake. There would be no point. It'd be like asking a guy who is playing a power ranger and a girl who is playing Rita to not hang out together. ' Which begs the question: Why do you watch wrestling then?
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Post by hajimenoippo on Dec 10, 2009 3:30:34 GMT -5
Because it's fake, hilarious, and they don't take the show too srs. Wrestling is show business and I've been brought in by stories told.
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ilggant
Unicron
Run...
Posts: 2,666
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Post by ilggant on Dec 10, 2009 7:53:57 GMT -5
Everyone knows wrestling is fake. There would be no point. It'd be like asking a guy who is playing a power ranger and a girl who is playing Rita to not hang out together. ' Which begs the question: Why do you watch wrestling then? Probably the same reason why you watch movies. If it's a good enough story, you'll be hooked.
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Post by The Peoples Elbow on Dec 10, 2009 11:06:56 GMT -5
Everyone knows wrestling is fake. There would be no point. It'd be like asking a guy who is playing a power ranger and a girl who is playing Rita to not hang out together. And therein lies the flaw in your theory. All of US know it's fake, but the younger kids that the WWE plays to may not. As an adult, or even an older teen, yeah, it's not going to faze you to see HHH and Orton tossing back brews at the Outback steakhouse together, or to see Toby Maguire and Wilem Dafoe chlling at Applebees. But kids see that and it ruins the illusion of the story for them. At least, that's what the older guys like Bret maintain. I know this is completely off-topic, but what I wouldn't give to see Willem Defoe singing "Private Eyes" in a karaoke bar somewhere. www.funnyordie.com/videos/456a15f639/the-procedure-with-willem-dafoe-will-ferrell-from-adam-ghost-panther-mckay
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Post by triplealbert on Dec 10, 2009 13:56:27 GMT -5
'Cause Bret's crazy.
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sabu
Don Corleone
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Post by sabu on Dec 10, 2009 15:19:16 GMT -5
Bret took himself way too seriously.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 10, 2009 17:17:55 GMT -5
Bret took himself way too seriously. And made millions doing so. People look at treating wrestling seriously as some kind of joke, which is odd, considering it's a number of peoples' entire livelihood. Not only that, but consider something like taking the top champion spot "seriously"; doing so enables you to do much better business than being a champion who treats it with the "wink and nod" treatment. Is wrestling, in a huge number of ways, very silly? Of course it is. But the goal for any production, be it sports, a TV drama, a film, a stage production, etc., is to get an audience to watch with rapt attention, wanting to see more after what they're viewing is over. You don't accomplish that very well without taking what you're doing "seriously", even if you can be funny in the process of doing so. Also, there was a comment before sarcastically saying how Bret had "such a deep and multi-faceted character"...which entirely misses the point. Wrestlers don't need exstravagant backstories, they don't need to have the depth of an Orson Welles character, they don't need anything except a basic disposition and personality. From there, however, you can take these archetypes, these basic character molds, and put them into stories and feuds that can get an arena of 20,000+ people to watch attentively and to react to the slightest little thing happening. How "deep" your character is has less than nothing to do with that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 18:20:56 GMT -5
Wait a minute. Why would current wrestlers need to worry that little marks are watching them break kayfabe in a bar? Don't they have to wait another 8-12 years to get in?
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Post by hajimenoippo on Dec 10, 2009 22:40:44 GMT -5
I look at it as theater times may be silly and serious; but at all times tryi g to keep the audience's attention
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 10, 2009 23:08:00 GMT -5
Wait a minute. Why would current wrestlers need to worry that little marks are watching them break kayfabe in a bar? Don't they have to wait another 8-12 years to get in? An airport bar springs to mind. A lot of those are unenclosed or open to passerby. Strict kayfabe would say that you wouldn't sit down with your sworn enemy and toss back some brews at one of those.
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Post by celticjobber on Dec 11, 2009 3:05:55 GMT -5
I don't know why, but I thought this thread would be about El Dandy.
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Post by ozequal on Dec 11, 2009 7:34:09 GMT -5
God, you just reminded me....there was a time, back in let's say the late 80's to early 90's, that seeing a face paint-wearing wrestler without said paint was a HUGE deal. Guys like Warrior, Sting, and LOD took great pains to never let themselves be seen completely bare-faced in public, or at non wrestling events. Sting did Thunder in Paradise and that one Cop Movie that was direct to video sans paint. Speaking of face paint, we need more wrestlers who wear it. I'd love to see Cena wear some sting-like "war paint" If wrestling is just some other tv show and not a legit sport, and the companies dont want to put it over as a legit sport, then riddle me this: Why should i pay my hard earned cash to watch a PPV? There are no once-a-month PPVs for Lost, for example. PPV's are the climax of that month's storylines like Mid-season breaks or they act as bigger Bridging gaps to extend a story and branch out feuds from it. It's not a sport, but they have the best matches at the PPV most of the time. Oh if there was a once-a-month PPV for lost you'd buy it. No, i really wouldnt buy a Lost PPV. PPVs really arent worth the money, for wrestling anymore. Once-per-month PPVs just dont fit properly. A few big shows a year would be better imo.
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Post by Piccolo on Dec 11, 2009 22:49:47 GMT -5
Virtually everone knows wrestling is pre-determined. Yes, calling it fake is an insult, but nobody, with rare exception, fan or not, respectful or not, really believes that Triple H broke into Randy Orton's home and that they really are trying to criple each other at Wrestlemania. They'd kill each other if it was legit. People watch it because they want a good story. So, do'nt insult our intelligence. Do not tell us it is as real as MMA or the NFL. Yeah, I agree. I like the acknowledgment outside of the show that it is what it is. And I like that the matches and competition are real inside the show, and it's acknowledged that certain commercials or opening promos are scripted (well, acknowledged by DX anyway), but we can pretty much suspend our disbelief about the rest of it. The new kayfabe, in my opinion, is the faux-references to the business on the show, and probably a lot of the rumors we get on the newz sites... it's a more complicated, less structured sort of facade, and I think it's somewhat more fun than pretending that everyone is really a super good guy or a super bad guy and they actually hate each other. (Per the new kayfabe, we get guys having "heat" with management, rumors about how guys act backstage, who dislikes who, etc. Same thing as the kayfabe about onscreen rivals disliking each other irl, but on a different layer.) As I said in another thread, I prefer my heels to be arrogant or oversensitive or misguided or cheats, and my faces to simply be guys who have a more honest spirit of competition. Heels who are actually murderous, or faces who don't react realistically in the name of being nice (like Cena was doing for a while there), throw me out of the illusion. That being said, I wish they'd cut out things like Trips breaking into Orton's home, or wrestlers trying to actually kill each other, because it feels kind of cheesy, and strains the suspension of disbelief. I like the show more when it's a straight-up sports drama. The more soapy elements, I can do without.
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Post by Janitor From Mars on Dec 12, 2009 0:06:59 GMT -5
I don't get the Bret-bashing on here.
I really don't wish to hear any more about Montreal.
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Dec 12, 2009 1:38:03 GMT -5
Yeah, Bret gets no love a lot of times on here. I can see where he was coming from, but I also understand the other side of the equation.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Dec 12, 2009 2:27:42 GMT -5
As far as kayfabe outside the show goes, I prefer consistency inside and outside the ring. Alot of the best moments such as matches and promos came from wrestlers believing in what they do. If say, Jake Roberts wrestled in today's enviroment, he would'nt get over because he'd be confined to a script. Same thing can be said about Roddy Piper, Dusty Rhodes, Randy Savage and so many other 80s icons. And the late 90s at least had some elements of kayfabe with "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and The Rock's as themselves, except with the volume turned up.
Also, I'm not saying faces and heels should live their lives apart, but why in the hell would you have two guys in a big money feud eat a sandwich together? How are you suppose to sell their vendetta to the ticket buying public who's suppose to get wraped up in the show? I know the movie comparison, but professional wrestling has(or at least had) a formula it must follow, and once broken, you get the crap thats on TV now.
The "sport" of professional wrestling had its own aura to it. Its not quite a sport, but its not quite entertainment, its "Sports Entertainment".
And no, its not Bret Hart taking his character seriously, its Bret Hart taking himself seriously.
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