Are marks disappearing?

[Nic Nemeth]

Seriously, my five year old cousin knows wrestling is scripted after searching for John Cena on wikipedia.

[Bubble Lead]

I grew up in the Hogan/New Generation era and knew it was fake. It was obvious to me, even without access to dirtsheets or internet.

[JDviant]

traditional marks are, but there's lots of people like me, who CHOOSE to be marks because we enjoy the product more that way.

[rnrk supports BLM]

Knowing wrestling is scripted doesn't automatically make you a smark. I knew wrestling wasn't real even as a kid, but that didn't stop me from rooting for the babyfaces, hoping the heels would get their asses kicked, and considered a title win to be a huge moment.

The shift from being a mark to a smark comes, IMO, more when you start watching for and appreciating the quality of the individual performances, regardless of who wins/loses or who is presented as being important in the storyline.

[Free Hat]

I knew wrestling was fake when I was three years old. That was back in 1990. It's been decades since there were large numbers fans who actually thought it was real, so the term "mark" has been redefined over the years.

[Schemer]

Everyone knows it's fake. But I don't think everyone who knows that is smart to it, so those people could still be considered marks.

[Thank You Shawn]

I mark when I wanna mark, like for The Miz and Jericho when on commentary.

[Schattenjager]

Knowing wrestling is scripted doesn't automatically make you a smark.

Yes it does. That's the whole definition of a "smart mark". People really need to stop using the words "mark" and "smark" altogether, since there are no marks and everybody is a smart mark. The business is not protected anymore, everybody knows the truth and they're not even trying to hide the fact that it's pre-determined and haven't been for years.

[AriadosMan]

We really need a new vocabulary...the words "smark" and "mark" have lost almost all their original meaning.

And yes, the internet has made the type of fan traditionally called a "mark" obsolete.

[Brandon Walsh is Insane.]

Um, not all fans of wrestling use message boards or internet sites like we do.

We're just nerds.

[Nic Nemeth]

Apr 7, 2010 1:26:09 GMT -5 Brandon Walsh is Insane. said:

Um, not all fans of wrestling use message boards or internet sites like we do.

We're just nerds.

I'm pretty sure everyone uses Wikipedia.

It took him two minutes of browsing Cena's article before he asked someone if it was fake or not.

[AriadosMan]

Most of the wrestling fans I knew figured it out before the rise of Wikipedia.

Besides, there's plenty of MMA around now to show even the markiest of fans how a "real fight" works.

[Orange]

I think a lot of people know it's fake now, and even the 'E plays around with it (like a few months ago HHH acknowledging he was married to Stephanie). I don't think wrestling tries to take itself seriously anymore since a lot of people know about it.

[Free Hat]

Apr 7, 2010 2:20:11 GMT -5 Orange said:

I think a lot of people know it's fake now, and even the 'E plays around with it (like a few months ago HHH acknowledging he was married to Stephanie). I don't think wrestling tries to take itself seriously anymore since a lot of people know about it.

If by "a lot" you mean "everyone", than you're right. What's at issue here is that some people actually think that the internet is somehow the cause of this. It's not. Fact is, you'd pretty much have to go back to the 70s to find any significant numbers of people who thought it was real.

[Orange]

Apr 7, 2010 2:28:01 GMT -5 Free Hat said:

Apr 7, 2010 2:20:11 GMT -5 Orange said:

I think a lot of people know it's fake now, and even the 'E plays around with it (like a few months ago HHH acknowledging he was married to Stephanie). I don't think wrestling tries to take itself seriously anymore since a lot of people know about it.

If by "a lot" you mean "everyone", than you're right. What's at issue here is that some people actually think that the internet is somehow the cause of this. It's not. Fact is, you'd pretty much have to go back to the 70s to find any significant numbers of people who thought it was real.

True enough, I mostly meant some of the younger kids you see on Raw mostly who seem to be really into it. Whether they still believe or not I have no clue, but me at their age I sure did. I'll agree that the internet isn't the cause, but rather just people catching on and wising up to the whole thing, but it's not like it was a well kept secret either.

[kidglov3s]

I think kayfabe was kind of publicly done away with on-screen in the mid-late 1990s. Between Bischoff reading Raw results on-screen, Rick Rude appearing on Raw/Nitro, and the very visible incident and fallout of Montreal. Things like this were exploited to get public attention, and I think that this final public shattering of kayfabe was maybe the primary catalyst for the late 90s boom period, in something of an unconscious manner perhaps. This continues through to today, with WWE just wrapping up a big Bret Hart storyline about Montreal, all of which centers around (if you subscribe to the idea that it was not all a big work) Vince/WWF/Michaels/Hebner running a different finish from what had been agreed upon with Hart.

[thesunbeast]

Ok, I wasn't going to say anything about this, but it's obvious that we need some clarification on the definitions of "mark" and "smark".

The best anyone can do is to use a WRESTLER'S definition, not a FAN'S definition (who's are almost always wrong), and not wikipedia's definition.

Lance Storm, New Jack, and others have recently given the definitions, and they had the same explanation, and I personally have spoken to many WWE and former WWE personell, as well as indy wrestlers, and have gotten the same definitions again.

Basically, only wrestling fans seem to believe that a "smark" isn't a "mark". To a wrestler, a "smark" IS a "mark", or else they would have called them "smart" and not a "mark".

The thing is, is that the term "mark" doesn't necessarily mean today what it used to mean in the past, but it has the same amount of value, just different value. Let me explain:


A "Mark": Is several things mixed together, mainly two. Number one, A "mark" is someone who has personal tastes. If you have any subjective personal tastes whatsoever when it comes to the world of pro wrestling, you are a "mark". Basically being a fan. You absolutely must have personal tastes in order to have your emotions manipulated. You can be an HBK "mark" or a Cena "mark". Even the wrestlers themselves sometimes consider themselves "marks". Number two, you have to not be able to tell what is real and what is fake. This allows your emotions to be manipulated. Since wrestling is half real and half fake, you will always be a "mark" unless you are actually trained in a ring yourself. If a wrestler pretends to injure their knee and all the wrestlers in the back can see that it's fake, but you aren't so sure and you ask, then you're a "mark". If you knew better then you wouldn't have asked. Same with whether a kick was real or not, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, but if you can't tell, then you can be fooled, thus your emotions manipulated, thus more money out of your wallet (that is if you care, ofcourse, wich is the other half of the definition of "mark").

Now, it must be said that the basic definition of a "mark" has largely always been the same, it's having personal tastes and not knowing what's real. it's just that over the last 60 years the SCENERIOS have changed as to what it is that brings this out. For example: in 1970 being a "mark" meant that you had personal tasted and you didn't know what was real, the two basic things that allowed your emotions to be manipulated. However, since people believed that wrestling was real, and were watching what they thought was real competition, it took believing that wrestling was real in order to be a "mark", that is, to be someone that cared enough to have personal tastes or an interest. If they found out that it was fake, it would be like if today you found out hat UFC was fake. You'd stop watching, because you thought you were watching real competition, but later on different types of fans would want to watch the specticle in which they already know is fake. So what a "mark" actually is has never changed, but what it takes to be a mark has changed alot.

Now, in today's world you have many different types of "marks", where as 40 years ago you only had two, "mark" and "smark". Today, you have:

-"mark"
-"smart mark"
-"internet mark"
-"hardcore mark"
-"oldschool mark"

A "smart mark" is generally described as a "mark" with knowlege. They have personal tastes and they don't know what is real and what is fake, so their emotions can be manipulated on both sides of the spectrum, just like a "mark", but, they know that so and so was fired for this or that, ar so and so is leaving the company, and they know most of the inside terms. They will also use all of this in an effort to try and justify their own personal tastes, instead of using nothing to justify it, sine they forget that they're fans.

Since being a mark means that you have personal tastes, then the different types of "marks" means that the "mark" uses whatever they have at their disposal just to justify their own personal tastes. A regular "mark" will just root for whoever they want, a "smark" will use his/her inside knowlege to justify their personal tastes (it's never "oh, I just like him better"), an "internet mark" will use internet info to justify their own personal tastes (whether true or not)

So basically, a "smark" is a sub category of "mark", but without losing any of the qualities of a "mark". The same goes for all the other types of "marks" that we have.

Every single type of wrestling fan is a "mark", but it's a matter of what type of "mark" you are. If you have any kind of personal taste at all and you can't tell 100% of the time what is real and what is fake, then a wrestler can use that to bring emotions out of you, and therefore you are a "mark".

EDIT:Basically IMO, an even easier definition of "mark" would be someone who is capable of having emotions drawn out of them, since this involves the two factors that wrestlers usually give as "mark". It also explains the term "marking out" which means that emotions are being drawn out of you.

[sourdoughjack]

Just because people know it's fake doesn't stop things like CM Punk at the Cow Palace.

[D2: Sweet & Sour Edition]

I still think Smark is such a dirty word. I hate it.

[booman]

Not if this guy has anything to say about it...