Adding more unpredictability to WWE matches

[Tapout]

One of the most pleasant surprises of OTL was Kofi pinning McIntyre after the SOS, which Kofi doesn't technically use as a finisher, but SHOULD.

These days a lot of WWE matches seem booked very samey and have some very predictable. The most obvious examples are guys kicking out of everything EXCEPT a finisher (which really took a lot of the drama out of the Mysterio/Punk OTL match, since it was clear neither man was going to get pinned after a cross body block or what have you, despite the crowd's reactions), and 99.9% of all near-falls going to 2-and-a-half.

Use this thread to suggest some general tweaks to WWE matches to make them seem less formulaic.

Tapout's shortlist:

-Have some frigging kickouts at 1.

-Allow at least a few non-Cena guys to have more than 1 finisher. This will add more suspense when the opponent kicks out of one, but not the other, as opposed to the current formula, which is "guy kicks out of every single big dazzling highspot but not the finisher."

Yeah, I know a couple established guys on the roster already do have 2 finishers (Jericho, Kane, Undertaker) but let some of the midcarders pick up some wins with more than one.

[Sumbody Gon' Get Dey Kneelift]

I just agree with nothing to add.

[Jason]

Some of my gripes with WWE's matches nowadays...

Nobody EVER kicks out of a finishing move, anymore. Unless it's Wrestlemania. This takes the unpredictablity away from matches, since all of us "smart" fans know that they will always kick out of a signature move (ie. The Side Effect), but never a finishing one (ie. The Twist of the fate).

In tag team matches, the formula is always the same. Smaller face wrestler gets beat down, makes hot tag, big guy cleans house, falls victim to a dirty heel tactic and either gets pinned or overcomes the odds. IMO this needs to stop, there's plenty of other finishers available for tag team matches and it's just plain lazy. This is why Jeri-Miz vs the Hart Dynasty from sunday was so awesome, everytime this happened, you thought it was over but they actually kicked out. I was at the edge of my seat.

Cena's matches. Yeah, I know... Cena hating is too 2005, blahblah. I can't bare to watch his formula anymore. It's worse than the tag team spot, it's Cena gets beat down, makes comeback, goes for the Attitude Adjustment, and they either get out of it and fall victim to the STF or they get drilled with it. I'd like Cena to be in control for once, again this is why RVD vs Cena at ONS2 is IMO, Cena's best match to date. Don't get me started on his I quit matches, they're worse than Rey's mask threatening matches.

[truwrestlingfan]

^ I remember a few years ago people were complaining about how everyone kicks out of finishers all the time.....

I think it's cool now that if a finisher is hit the match is over

[Jason]

May 25, 2010 16:46:05 GMT -5 @truwrestlingfan said:

^ I remember a few years ago people were complaining about how everyone kicks out of finishers all the time.....

I think it's cool now that if a finisher is hit the match is over

I don't get why anybody would be behind the idea of ending a match after one move, over having them actually put somebody over by doing the one move say twice. Sheamus kicking out of the Attitude Adjustment would do ALOT more for him than most people would imagine. But if he loses to Cena's drawn out routine? Well, he's just another foot-note. I'm not saying to over-do it, but IMO, there is just no shocks in matches anymore. Kicking out of Cena's top rope fame-asser is no shock. Somebody kicking out of the Attitude Adjustment however...

[anglarite]

Transparent stipulations should be also stopped.

i.e.

"Mask vs..." matches for Mysterio (he will always win those), or "I Quit/submission" matches for Cena (he'll never submit and never quits). Similarily, it's sorta stupid to have a submission match if one of the participants clearly never had a submission hold.

[jamielowndes {N}]

Take Cena out. That in itself adds a bucketload of unpredictability to matches.

I know it seems cliche to dig at Cena, and this isnt directly at Cena, but rather his booking. But we know EXACTLY whats gonna happen with him.

[mrjl]

May 25, 2010 15:53:19 GMT -5 Tapout said:

One of the most pleasant surprises of OTL was Kofi pinning McIntyre after the SOS, which Kofi doesn't technically use as a finisher, but SHOULD.

These days a lot of WWE matches seem booked very samey and have some very predictable. The most obvious examples are guys kicking out of everything EXCEPT a finisher (which really took a lot of the drama out of the Mysterio/Punk OTL match, since it was clear neither man was going to get pinned after a cross body block or what have you, despite the crowd's reactions), and 99.9% of all near-falls going to 2-and-a-half.

Use this thread to suggest some general tweaks to WWE matches to make them seem less formulaic.

Tapout's shortlist:

-Have some frigging kickouts at 1.

-Allow at least a few non-Cena guys to have more than 1 finisher. This will add more suspense when the opponent kicks out of one, but not the other, as opposed to the current formula, which is "guy kicks out of every single big dazzling highspot but not the finisher."

Yeah, I know a couple established guys on the roster already do have 2 finishers (Jericho, Kane, Undertaker) but let some of the midcarders pick up some wins with more than one.

We do have one counts, they're just in the first few minutes of the match.

Batista finished with both the spinebuster and Batista Bomb. Christian has occasionally gets a finish with his second rope sunset flip. Regal uses both the Regal Stretch and the knee trembler. Ziggler has the sleeper and the Zig Zag.

[rapidfire187]

May 25, 2010 15:53:19 GMT -5 Tapout said:

Tapout's shortlist:

-Have some frigging kickouts at 1.

-Allow at least a few non-Cena guys to have more than 1 finisher. This will add more suspense when the opponent kicks out of one, but not the other, as opposed to the current formula, which is "guy kicks out of every single big dazzling highspot but not the finisher."

Yeah, I know a couple established guys on the roster already do have 2 finishers (Jericho, Kane, Undertaker) but let some of the midcarders pick up some wins with more than one.

I agree with this.

Several years ago I remember reading something on one of the newz sites that Vince wanted more one counts, but I don't recall it ever really changing. I don't think there should be one counts towards the end of the match unless they want it to be a really big deal, but progressing from 1 counts, to 2 counts, to near falls, to 3 counts would be nice. Shouldn't happen in every single match, but it should definitely happen more often.

[Dub H]

May 25, 2010 16:25:19 GMT -5 Jason said:

Some of my gripes with WWE's matches nowadays...

Nobody EVER kicks out of a finishing move, anymore. Unless it's Wrestlemania. This takes the unpredictablity away from matches, since all of us "smart" fans know that they will always kick out of a signature move (ie. The Side Effect), but never a finishing one (ie. The Twist of the fate).

Just two days ago Tyson Kidd kicked out of the Codebreaker

But i agree with that,it annoys me sometimes,and then the only hope is reversal

[waluigi]

May 25, 2010 16:25:19 GMT -5 Jason said:

In tag team matches, the formula is always the same. Smaller face wrestler gets beat down, makes hot tag, big guy cleans house, falls victim to a dirty heel tactic and either gets pinned or overcomes the odds. IMO this needs to stop, there's plenty of other finishers available for tag team matches and it's just plain lazy. This is why Jeri-Miz vs the Hart Dynasty from sunday was so awesome, everytime this happened, you thought it was over but they actually kicked out. I was at the edge of my seat.

It's a classic tag team match dynamic but they really have to think outside the box with the Ricky Morton deal. They'll have two tag matches in one show with the EXACT SAME BOOKING. Can't they do anything else?

[bradtherad]

More interferences, it seems that as Attitude winded down, WWE did less and less interference. They need to have feuding wrestlers constantly interfere in each other's matches and attack each other randomly.

[Deleted]

I do agree that they need to have more of people pinned with non-finishers. The SOS thing and Matt Hardy pinning Miz I think it was with a Side Effect (which wasn't even intended) are the only non-roll-up examples I can think of any time lately. Why not have Jericho occasionally finish off midcard guys with the enziguri or Sheamus sometimes win with the Irish Curse or whatever?

[Abadebe]

Basic formula for WWE matches:
Trade chops/punches
Face gets advantage, hits a few moves
Heel makes a big reversal, gets advantage, hits a few moves
Face hits a big move to slow the heel down
Hope spot where the face's comeback is teased
Trade chops/punches
Heel hits a big move and regains the advantage
Heel hits a few moves
Face makes a big reversal
Trade chops/punches
Face hits big move, makes his comeback
Finish is teased, maybe someone kicks out of a finisher
Finish


Think about how many main event matches follow this script or a similar one. If they want more unpredictability, they need to seriously deviate from this.

[SAJ Forth]

Some of these ideas would make sense.

[officedepot6905]

I thought about this tonight during nxt, otunga kicked out at 1 and I thought to myself that you never see that anymore.

I agree 100% with the OP.

[joeskvorecky]

May 25, 2010 15:53:19 GMT -5 Tapout said:

The most obvious examples are guys kicking out of everything EXCEPT a finisher (which really took a lot of the drama out of the Mysterio/Punk OTL match, since it was clear neither man was going to get pinned after a cross body block or what have you, despite the crowd's reactions),

Er?

[sourdoughjack]

More small package/rollup victories. They shouldn't really come as a surprise but used when two guys beat the tar out of each other and can't throw moves anymore. I know a lot of people think it's a cheap finish but if it gets used enough it'll be legit.

[Bo Rida]

More people having signature submission holds that can be used as finishers would help, even the walls of Jericho seems to have lost it's power.

I agree with non-finishers resulting in a pin, just have moves like the side-effect win 25% of matches. Non-standard moves should also finish more often, something like the big moves from the top rope.

[seamonsters]

May 25, 2010 15:53:19 GMT -5 Tapout said:

These days a lot of WWE matches seem booked very samey and have some very predictable. The most obvious examples are guys kicking out of everything EXCEPT a finisher (which really took a lot of the drama out of the Mysterio/Punk OTL match, since it was clear neither man was going to get pinned after a cross body block or what have you, despite the crowd's reactions), and 99.9% of all near-falls going to 2-and-a-half.

Great example.

Oh.

-Have some frigging kickouts at 1.

It makes sense from a kayfabe perspective to kick out at one? Someone hits you with a move, it hurts/knocks the wind out of you/whatever, and he'll either be straight back on you, or trying to pin you.

If he's trying to pin you, this is the only recovery time you're going to get. Two and a half seconds respite is much better than one.

If we ignore kayfabe and go with reality, he's just partly knocked the wind out of you, two and a half seconds recovery is better than nothing, especially in a fast paced match with little or no rest holds.

May 25, 2010 16:25:19 GMT -5 Jason said:

Nobody EVER kicks out of a finishing move, anymore. Unless it's Wrestlemania.

Anymore? I remember watching WWF for years before I saw someone kick out of a finisher that wasn't at Wrestlemania. Six, seven, eight years at a guess. That's why they're called finishers. if it doesn't finish 99% of the roster off, it doesn't really deserve to be called a finisher.

Cena's matches. Yeah, I know... Cena hating is too 2005, blahblah. I can't bare to watch his formula anymore. It's worse than the tag team spot, it's Cena gets beat down, makes comeback, goes for the Attitude Adjustment, and they either get out of it and fall victim to the STF or they get drilled with it. I'd like Cena to be in control for once, again this is why RVD vs Cena at ONS2 is IMO, Cena's best match to date. Don't get me started on his I quit matches, they're worse than Rey's mask threatening matches.

But that just wouldn't work. Partly because you're not really descrbing the formula of Cena matches, you're describing the formula of wrestling itself.

Because the whole point of the beat down, is to get the fans into the match, and behind the babyface to inspre him to the comeback. If the face is in control and has beaten the heel down, it kills the crowd, because they don't need to get behind the babyface, because the babyface is in control, and they're not going to get behind the heel, are they?

Cena's in control against RVD at ONS2, because Cena's the heel. That's how wrestling works.

May 25, 2010 19:03:14 GMT -5 bradtherad said:

More interferences, it seems that as Attitude winded down, WWE did less and less interference. They need to have feuding wrestlers constantly interfere in each other's matches and attack each other randomly.

Fewer clean endings, and more bullshit finishes? Er, no thanks.

May 26, 2010 7:11:08 GMT -5 Bo Rida said:

More people having signature submission holds that can be used as finishers would help, even the walls of Jericho seems to have lost it's power.

I agree, but the downside with that is that in an era where you don't get squash matches, getting a submission move over for a particular wrestler is a lot harder - Dolph Ziggler's been using a sleeper for three months now, but how many people has he actually beaten with it? Two?