Question about Cena's "Superman" push

[RI Richmark]

One of the many complaints against John Cena that I don't understand is his Superman push. Sure, he usually overcomes overwhelming odds, but can't the same thing be said for any of the top faces in WWE history.

For example, I remember Hulk Hogan winning despite injuries, outside interference, and his opponent cheating. The same could be said for Randy Savage, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels.

Then there's Stone Cold. He had Vince McMahon constantly coming up with stipulations that would make it impossible for Austin to win, but Austin usually would find a way. This formula would be repeated in many babyface vs heel boss feuds.

How is Cena different from these examples? Why don't I recall many people complaining about Hogan's or Austin's Superman pushes? Would people have the same reaction toward a different superstar if he was booked the same way Cena is?

[bob]

Austin lost as Vince would get the better of him once in a while

additionally Austin didn't told the world title for over a year

[Jason]

Hogan was the top babyface in the eighties. Saying Cena is like him and nobody complained about it, is like saying something like...

"Hey, did you see the graphics of the new Smackdown game? they suck."
"What are you talking about? No Mercy had the exact same graphics and nobody complained about it!"

Maybe not the best example, but it's pretty similar. That stuff was the "in" thing to do back then, and back then it was cool. But they took 5 steps forward with "Attitude" and took 10 steps back with the Cena era. As for as Austin being superman, that's hardly the case. Austin was no superhero, he was a badass who did what he wanted, when he wanted. Cena is a goody two shoes who can only connect with the kids who look up to him, and the women who find him hot. The men? He connects with a FEW, but the majority, no. Why do you think the IWC's favourite guys are Edge, Christian, Chris Jericho, CM Punk, etc? Because we can relate to those guys. They're like us. They don't constantly make promises we know they won't break. They don't constantly overcome the odds. They're booked and made look like human beings. It's no wonder Cena cannot connect with the casual audience, they're going about it all wrong. Sure he sells merchandise, but I highly doubt it was anything compared to Austin's or the Rock's.

The problem is, Austin and Rock's characters were freshened up every few years. Austin was the badass rebal, then he was the paranoid... WHAT? I said paranoid leader of the Alliance. Then he was Sheriff Austin, and you know, he was always doing something interesting or funny that would make you wonder what he would do next. Same with the Rock. First he was the corporate champion, then he was the lovable comedian guy, then he turned heel with "Hollywood" Rock. Cena? You never wonder what he's going to do next. If anybody told you they did, they're lying and just being ignorant. We all know what is going to happen this sunday at Over the Limit. Cena will lift Batista up in vintage superman fashion after he applies the new finisher, and then he'll FU Adjust his attitude before locking in the dreaded STFU and will somehow make Batista quit by practically hugging him. Okay, maybe the exact thing won't happen, but I gaurantee Cena won't quit. Him in an I quit match is like Rey in a "If Rey loses, he removes his mask" match. There's nothing fresh with Cena. Nothing that will make you tune in the next week. Unless of course you're 7, and you don't have connections with common sense. Or a girl, who just wants to look at Cena, period.

I don't know why I tune into Raw at all. I have a handful of favourites there, but I just know nothing cool will happen. I hate Cena, I hate the guest hosts, I hate the commentators and their whacky phrases. But the lifelong fan in me just can't stop watching. I guess I still have hopes that maybe just maybe, they'll pull something interesting out of the bag, like I don't know... Cena saying "I quit" this sunday?

[jamielowndes {N}]

It just bothers me that they tried to throw every main eventer in with him for him to go over as if to try and convince us that he was THAT good. When in reality, it just came across as him being forced down our throats.

JBL aside, he does not have 1 title win at Wrestlemania were I could honestly say it was a MUST that he goes over. HHH was getting HUGE face reactions in 06, HBK couldve become a great heel champion in 07, and Batista has been one of the stars of 2010.

He went from being this young, hungry kid with a razor sharp wit to being the most unintentionally corporate champion we could imagine. In an era where kayfabe acknowledges the smarks, while he is doing what he does, a vocal minority will never be satisfied. Ive said before, I have no problem with Cena himself, but the way he is booked is just boring.

[allenfan69]

He's just so bland. He's so corporate. It's painfully obvious that when Vince tells him to jump, Cena says "how high?" His character is exactly what the Mr. McMahon character wanted in a corporate champion back in '98. Buff, non-threatening, eager to please the boss and sell shirts.

[barley96]

Hogan did have a Superman push, but the 1980s was a different time period therefore I don't think that argument is applicable.

As for SCSA, Vince McMahon has gotten the better of him numerous times. Also the SCSA/HHH blow-off match at No Way Out 2001, Austin lost cleanly. When has Cena ever lost a blow-off match that did not include heavy interference, or an over booked match ie Cena/Edge Backlash 2009.

[mrjl]

Maybe not the best example, but it's pretty similar. That stuff was the "in" thing to do back then, and back then it was cool. But they took 5 steps forward with "Attitude" and took 10 steps back with the Cena era. As for as Austin being superman, that's hardly the case. Austin was no superhero, he was a badass who did what he wanted, when he wanted. Cena is a goody two shoes who can only connect with the kids who look up to him, and the women who find him hot. The men? He connects with a FEW, but the majority, no. Why do you think the IWC's favourite guys are Edge, Christian, Chris Jericho, CM Punk, etc? Because we can relate to those guys. They're like us. They don't constantly make promises we know they won't break. They don't constantly overcome the odds. They're booked and made look like human beings. It's no wonder Cena cannot connect with the casual audience, they're going about it all wrong. Sure he sells merchandise, but I highly doubt it was anything compared to Austin's or the Rock's.

So because you're not perfect you embrace people who are actively imperfect. Who are self-righteous, hypocritical, who never overcome the odds because they never even play the game properly.

And Christian does generally make promises and keep them. Sure he plays dirty, but if notice every time Cena gets to choose stipulations he makes matches where he can do any damn thing he wants to his opponent.

The problem is, Austin and Rock's characters were freshened up every few years. Austin was the badass rebal, then he was the paranoid... WHAT? I said paranoid leader of the Alliance. Then he was Sheriff Austin, and you know, he was always doing something interesting or funny that would make you wonder what he would do next.

He was unable to make people react properly to the What guy, considering he wanted to be booed and everytime he did something important he turned back into the rebelt. At the end of that run he turned back into the rebel despite trying to kill the company.

And people hated Sheriff Austin. He was no longer able to get away with everything to fans, because they weren't happy when he stunnered Stacy, or that he got to beat up on stars but was to fragile to give back.

I don't know why I tune into Raw at all. I have a handful of favourites there, but I just know nothing cool will happen. I hate Cena, I hate the guest hosts, I hate the commentators and their whacky phrases. But the lifelong fan in me just can't stop watching. I guess I still have hopes that maybe just maybe, they'll pull something interesting out of the bag, like I don't know... Cena saying "I quit" this sunday?

Call someone like Edge, maybe he'll sneak attack the lifelong fan in you and he'll give up.

You know, you sound a lot like Cena. The odds are against you but you will not quit.

[poontangler]

I'm sorry, but Savage and Hart never received Superman pushes. Winning all your matches against scrubs is NOT a Suoerman push.

Michaels and Austin were closer, but they never got anything close to what Cena and Hogan did.

[mrjl]

May 19, 2010 22:01:13 GMT -5 poontangler said:

I'm sorry, but Savage and Hart never received Superman pushes. Winning all your matches against scrubs is NOT a Suoerman push.

Michaels and Austin were closer, but they never got anything close to what Cena and Hogan did.

Austin was hurt by injuries though.

[Cela]

See the arm wrestling contest vs Mark Henry.

[RI Richmark]

After reading some of the posts I just want to respond to some of the good points that were raised.

I understand that wrestling was different in the 80's & 90's than today. But one of the constants was that the top face usually won the big matches. This goes all the way back to Hogan (and probability to Sammartino & Backlund too but I started watching wrestling in 87 so I can't comment on them.)

Yes, Hogan was different than Austin just as Cena is different both of them but that doesn't change the fact that there were times that they entered a match facing a huge handicap and would find a way to win.

Sure, they didn't win all the time (they all would have to lose sometime, even Cena was pinned by Randy Orton at WrestleMania 24) but when the chips were down they usually came out on top.

For instance at Survivor Series 2005 Cena defeated Kurt Angle despite the fact that Angle's manager Daivari was the guest referee. How is that different than Austin beating Mick Foley at Over The Edge 1998 even though McMahon was the ref? Just because Austin was a badass doesn't make his feats any more or less believable than Cena's.

I get the sense that rather that wonder why that the top face is booked this way, most of you wish that top face wasn't Cena. If it was Christian, for example, constantly overcoming the odds there would be few complaints.

I don't know how to respond to that. Cena been discussed 8 ways to Sunday at this point and nothing I say is going to change your minds (not that I would want to.) All I can say is that eventually a new star will come along and he'll get the push Cena gets now. He'll probably be very different from Cena and maybe more suited to your tastes (or he could be Hornswoggle. )

Thank you for your responses.

[aress]

May 19, 2010 22:34:11 GMT -5 RI Richmark said:

For instance at Survivor Series 2005 Cena defeated Kurt Angle despite the fact that Angle's manager Daivari was the guest referee. How is that different than Austin beating Mick Foley at Over The Edge 1998 even though McMahon was the ref? Just because Austin was a badass doesn't make his feats any more or less believable than Cena's.

I disagree.

Diavari was an active wrestler. There was no way he should have been so easily taken out during the match. Plus you can't really compare Angle and Foley in their stlyes and strategies. Foley could match Austin via brawling. The match played to both their strengths by having a no DQ stipulation. In the case of Angle/Cena it was a straight match. Angle should have the advantage in the ring. Even more so when he has his own biased ref.

The entire thing made both Angle and Daivari look incompetant moreso that making Cena look clever.

[poontangler]

May 19, 2010 22:10:04 GMT -5 mrjl said:

May 19, 2010 22:01:13 GMT -5 poontangler said:

I'm sorry, but Savage and Hart never received Superman pushes. Winning all your matches against scrubs is NOT a Suoerman push.

Michaels and Austin were closer, but they never got anything close to what Cena and Hogan did.

Austin was hurt by injuries though.

That's true...the difference in my mind is that I could actually believe Austin could destroy most of the guys he fought, whereas Cena never had that feel for me. And though I do hate Cena with a passion, I was never a big fan of Austin post-WCW/ECW (this is probably sacrilege to a lot of folks).

richmark, while I agree with your premise of a different wrestler getting a better reaction in the same position from the IWC, I honestly can say that no matter who they push like that, I'm more likely not to care. It gets boring so fast. Growing up, I HATED Hulk Hogan...always getting beaten into oblidicry (thanks, Franchise!) then his dumb ass "Hulk Up" and, 10 seconds later, his hand raised. I can vividly remember when he and Andre both got DQ'd at WM4 running into the kitchen, yelling to my dad "HOGAN'S OUT! SOMEONE ELSE IS FINALLY GOING TO WIN THE BELT!"

True story.

Oh, and don't forget, Mick wasn't the special ref in that Austin match, it was the Dude, and the Dude was a wuss.

[cabbageboy]

I have to wonder...do even little kids seriously cheer for Cena at this point? I would think even as a kid I would notice this guy getting booed out of various buildings on Raw and start wondering if this guy sucks. Honestly Cena is basically like Rocky Maivia if Vince kept Rock in that same role and he became a main eventer.

Cena's matches are an odd phenomenon. They are quite exciting live, but I can't say that I've ever found myself wanting to rewatch a John Cena match. Once I know that he wins yet again, there's nothing to see there.

[SAJ Forth]

I feel like His Push at this point is to stick it to whoever these critics are.

[Johnny Flamingo]

May 19, 2010 23:05:59 GMT -5 cabbageboy said:

I have to wonder...do even little kids seriously cheer for Cena at this point?

There are still way more fans (kids and adults) that seriously cheer for Cena than those who boo him.

If you don't believe me, go to a WWE show and notice which T-shirt is selling the best and which wrestler has most of the fans on their feet. (hint: his initials are J.C.)

[Jason]

May 19, 2010 21:15:07 GMT -5 mrjl said:

Maybe not the best example, but it's pretty similar. That stuff was the "in" thing to do back then, and back then it was cool. But they took 5 steps forward with "Attitude" and took 10 steps back with the Cena era. As for as Austin being superman, that's hardly the case. Austin was no superhero, he was a badass who did what he wanted, when he wanted. Cena is a goody two shoes who can only connect with the kids who look up to him, and the women who find him hot. The men? He connects with a FEW, but the majority, no. Why do you think the IWC's favourite guys are Edge, Christian, Chris Jericho, CM Punk, etc? Because we can relate to those guys. They're like us. They don't constantly make promises we know they won't break. They don't constantly overcome the odds. They're booked and made look like human beings. It's no wonder Cena cannot connect with the casual audience, they're going about it all wrong. Sure he sells merchandise, but I highly doubt it was anything compared to Austin's or the Rock's.

So because you're not perfect you embrace people who are actively imperfect. Who are self-righteous, hypocritical, who never overcome the odds because they never even play the game properly.

And Christian does generally make promises and keep them. Sure he plays dirty, but if notice every time Cena gets to choose stipulations he makes matches where he can do any damn thing he wants to his opponent.



He was unable to make people react properly to the What guy, considering he wanted to be booed and everytime he did something important he turned back into the rebelt. At the end of that run he turned back into the rebel despite trying to kill the company.

And people hated Sheriff Austin. He was no longer able to get away with everything to fans, because they weren't happy when he stunnered Stacy, or that he got to beat up on stars but was to fragile to give back.

I don't know why I tune into Raw at all. I have a handful of favourites there, but I just know nothing cool will happen. I hate Cena, I hate the guest hosts, I hate the commentators and their whacky phrases. But the lifelong fan in me just can't stop watching. I guess I still have hopes that maybe just maybe, they'll pull something interesting out of the bag, like I don't know... Cena saying "I quit" this sunday?

Call someone like Edge, maybe he'll sneak attack the lifelong fan in you and he'll give up.

You know, you sound a lot like Cena. The odds are against you but you will not quit.

The last line got a good laugh out of me. My point is, adults hate the vintage superman character that makes promises, keeps them and practically spoils the upcoming main event when he says he will not quit or will not lose. We don't feel the need to watch a Cena match, we know what's happening. He won't quit, he won't lose and if he does, they will make up some excuse for him, so he looks better than the guy who beat him. I mean, people complain tremendously about Triple H burying Booker T. But IMO, Cena buried The Miz and Sheamus too. Sure Sheamus won, but he didn't exactly look better than Cena.

I just don't get what "I think his foot slipped off the rope and he lost his balance" adds to this. Surely they wanted Sheamus to get over if they gave him the title so quickly? That was crushing his credibility. What does Cena gain by comments like this? Sheamus would gain alot if they made it look like he was the better man. They didn't. They made it look like he got lucky, and it didn't help that the next night, Cena was on about how it was a fluke and how he didn't deserve it. The weeks before? Cena was talking about how he seen everyone and he was no threat. When somebody finally shut him up and proved him wrong... what do you know? He was right again. Atleast in the commentators minds.

Look, I get that they don't want to give Cena a bad image. I just don't get why they have to book him so strongly. It's one thing to say "I give you my word, I will not quit". It's another thing to say this for 5 years straight and still keep that word. It's at the point where, when he says it, you know it's happening. Cena won't break a promise. All Cena is doing in the main event is preventing others from breaking out. A few losses won't hurt his merchandise.

They're getting over-protective, with his constant wins and looking better than anybody else and it's worse than anything in wrestling today. Hell, years even. Triple H's "reign of terror" wasn't this bad and atleast when he won, he didn't do it cleanly. He put over Batista, Goldberg, Chris Benoit, and even Shelton Benjamin. Who did Cena put over? Ever? I believe there is only three people he lost to clean, with no excuses. That being, Triple H at Night of Champions 2008 and a Raw a few months ago, Shawn Michaels from Raw in England, and Batista at Summerslam 2008. Not even Randy Orton beat him clean, and no... that Wrestlemania doesn't even count. Triple H pedigreed Cena, Randy punted Triple H and THEN pinned Cena. The damage was done by Triple H. Triple H looked better, Randy Orton just looked like a snake (or a Viper in Cole's words).

[SEAN CARLESS]

Even though I have somewhat of a soft spot for the loveable jar-head, I still find it funny that despite him being the "face" of the company, since his Main Event push began, he has yet to really win a match at Wrestlemania where most of the fans didn't boo him out of the building. He hasn't had that one iconic Wrestlemania moment where everyone in the building was with him. And I don't remember Hulk Hogan ever having about 50,000 people righteously pissed when he won like Cena did at WM's 22 & 23.

[The Deadly Snake]

Cena ia a main eventer that has high overness BECAUSE he's being overpushed, but ironically, has LOW momentum BECAUSE he's bieng overpushed. Therefore, because of low momentum, he can't get anymore popular, because the rest of the crowd is so dead set against him BECAUSE he's overpushed. That's not to mention he's stale in his gimmick, AND he's not very good at his gimmick in the first place.

WWE's response? If it doesn't go down, cram it harder.

[MrBRulzOK]

It's simple really. The problem I have with Cena is that he is rarely ever shown to have any flaws or weaknesses. A perfect example of this is that PPV where Big Show threw him off the stage into that spotlight below. If this was anyone else then they would have been out for at least a few months following this attack. Perhaps even a year. Yet Cena showed up less than one month later with his only effects being in pain. Yeah... I'd like to see anyone else come back to the ring after something like that. Lo and behold though "The Champ" did with the only ill effects being slightly more vulnerable than he was before. If I recall correctly, that didn't last too long either.

The problem with Cena is he is rarely shown to be flawed in anyway. The only way heels can hope to get any heat on him is to cheat. Granted, cheating is not necessarily a bad way to go around it. When that's their only route though you'd have to have the patience of a saint in order to be not bored by the act eventually. Sure there are a few exceptions every now and then, but they are few and far between. Honestly when was the last time Cena failed in the end? The total fluke win by Sheamus doesn't count in my book. I am impressed though that they have yet to have Cena be victorious over him yet.

That's not to say nobody should like him. After all, my opinion is merely that. In fact he's far from the most hated wrestler in my book. I'm not exactly a huge fan of the guy by any means, but I can certainly tolerate him more than I can a few other people out there.