AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Apr 7, 2010 12:08:14 GMT -5
Well, there's that, and there's a massive amount of criticism of one person whose "crime" is that he simply doesn't want to watch Impact anymore. We seriously don't need five pages based on "Lance isn't watching Impact anymore". If a person doesn't like a film or book, they don't get hundreds of posts flaming them for their opinion on here. Why then does "I'm not watching TNA anymore" get such a negative response? Its even worse when half the criticism of TNA isn't from the "WWE is always better than TNA" school, alot of it comes from people who were genuine fans of the TNA product who are now feeling alienated. If certain parts of the fanbase are this bad at taking criticism (even from former fans!) it really doesn't speak well of the attitude of many TNA defenders. Thanks for deciding what my attitude is for me, nice of you. Nope, you made that quite clear in your posts. Thanks for playing though.
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dpg
Samurai Cop
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Post by dpg on Apr 7, 2010 12:09:19 GMT -5
Thanks for deciding what my attitude is for me, nice of you. Nope, you made that quite clear in your posts. Thanks for playing though. Thanks for playing though? That the best you can do? Really? Where in this entire thread have I slagged off Lance Storm exactly?
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Post by Natalya's Ass Fanboy on Apr 7, 2010 12:11:11 GMT -5
Reading through this thread, I have to say: I find it really, really disappointing that there's an actual argument of some kind going on here. Like people can look at the long list of dead people and actually feel there's something that can be disputed. I'm sorry, but that's really sad, you guys. What's disputed is what role, if any, steroids and chair shots have played in the death of these wrestlers. Looking over the list it seems recreational drugs were by far the biggest culprit.
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dpg
Samurai Cop
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Post by dpg on Apr 7, 2010 12:12:28 GMT -5
Reading through this thread, I have to say: I find it really, really disappointing that there's an actual argument of some kind going on here. Like people can look at the long list of dead people and actually feel there's something that can be disputed. I'm sorry, but that's really sad, you guys. What's disputed is what role, if any, steroids and chair shots have played in the death of these wrestlers. Looking over the list it seems recreational drugs were by far the biggest culprit. Wrestlers have killed themselves for a variety of different reasons, long term drug abuse, problems at home. I don't want to speculate too much about Kanyon as we still don't even know how he died yet, might not have been suicide at all.
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Post by Michael Coello on Apr 7, 2010 12:15:23 GMT -5
The thing is, chairs had nothing to do with Kanyon's death. It was ruled a suicide by overdose. No chairs were involved. Here's the logic. Driving at high speeds is dangerous. Someone has a job wherein they drive fast for a living. They get into an accident, and the injuries they sustain are treated and they are given pain medicine. They wish to get back as quickly as possible to doing the job they love, so they juice up on the meds they were given, only to get into another accident. Eventually, after many accidents, they are completely hooked on the pain meds. They don't have anymore accidents on the job, but wind up overdosing on the meds they became hooked on. All of this is directly related to that first accident because of the pressure to "get back out there and work". But I think it hinges on the fact that the one shot taken by Rob on the head delivers instant trauma that needs painkillers and such to recover from. It's treating a porbability as a certainty. yes, I know stuff like what Rob took is dangerous, but what I think i'm saying is that we have something could happen seen as something that did happen. I don't know if I'm clear or not, though.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 7, 2010 12:19:01 GMT -5
Good grief enough with the sniping back and forth.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 7, 2010 12:25:27 GMT -5
The thing is, chairs had nothing to do with Kanyon's death. It was ruled a suicide by overdose. No chairs were involved. That's not his point. His point was concussions, which can lead to cases of depression, which obviously was in Kanyon's life. Now, he may've had it before, but gaining concussions through different means may've helped raise up the danger of his depression and his coping abilities. For those using the logical fallacy direction, it might be a straw man, as the argument is against chairs being involved in his death and obviously taking that down the argument because it WASN'T the argument in the first place. His argument is about "concussions" and their ability to inhibit the mind, which is the case with many football players who have committed suicide. Now, a tackle or big bump wasn't the cause of their suicide, but the concussions lead to the issues in the brain. That's what Storm is saying. He's also bringing up the issue of the steroids and heart problems that help cause it. As Storm rightly stated, they are just a factor, along with the painpills and other things related to potential heart problems, which ends up being the cause of most wrestler's death. The problem is it paints a bad picture that, what matters is a body, and whether Rob Terry got it by natural means or not is irrelevant. That's what is important in TNA when it comes to pushing someone as strong as they are pushing Rob Terry, especially as an up and coming babyface. There are other guys being pushed for different reasons and different talents, but before, Rob Terry was a bodyguard losing every week. Hogan comes in, he's riding to the top. It's like, an easy way to the top, if you get me. And Storm, because of his personal loss, sees it as a major problem that TNA doesn't seem to care about. That's why he's boycotting it. It's also important to note that, according to Bill Behrens who picked up on it, that Homicide essentially threw the chair, instead of leveling him with a legit shot, so basically, Homicide worked it so that it wouldn't be as damaging. So basically, Homicide worked the chair shot, making it look killer, but it wasn't in reality. However, not everyone is as good a worker as Homicide, and others may try to incorporate that into their own matches and take legit shots, like Jesse Neal did at the pay per view in December.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 12:26:52 GMT -5
Another day, another clump of people getting up in arms because Lance Storm has an opinion.
Does his watching or not watching TNA really matter? Does it? He saw something he didn't like and tried to spin it all into an attack on some of wrestlings' seedier elements. What an asshole. How dare he try to drag unprotected chair shots out into the light.
His writing could've perhaps been more objective, but I think his point is there.
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Apr 7, 2010 12:30:44 GMT -5
That's not his point. His point was concussions, which can lead to cases of depression, which obviously was in Kanyon's life. Now, he may've had it before, but gaining concussions through different means may've helped raise up the danger of his depression and his coping abilities. For those using the logical fallacy direction, it might be a straw man, as the argument is against chairs being involved in his death and obviously taking that down the argument because it WASN'T the argument in the first place. His argument is about "concussions" and their ability to inhibit the mind, which is the case with many football players who have committed suicide. Now, a tackle or big bump wasn't the cause of their suicide, but the concussions lead to the issues in the brain. That's what Storm is saying. He's also bringing up the issue of the steroids and heart problems that help cause it. As Storm rightly stated, they are just a factor, along with the painpills and other things related to potential heart problems, which ends up being the cause of most wrestler's death. The problem is it paints a bad picture that, what matters is a body, and whether Rob Terry got it by natural means or not is irrelevant. That's what is important in TNA when it comes to pushing someone as strong as they are pushing Rob Terry, especially as an up and coming babyface. There are other guys being pushed for different reasons and different talents, but before, Rob Terry was a bodyguard losing every week. Hogan comes in, he's riding to the top. It's like, an easy way to the top, if you get me. And Storm, because of his personal loss, sees it as a major problem that TNA doesn't seem to care about. That's why he's boycotting it. It's also important to note that, according to Bill Behrens who picked up on it, that Homicide essentially threw the chair, instead of leveling him with a legit shot, so basically, Homicide worked it so that it wouldn't be as damaging. So basically, Homicide worked the chair shot, making it look killer, but it wasn't in reality. However, not everyone is as good a worker as Homicide, and others may try to incorporate that into their own matches and take legit shots, like Jesse Neal did at the pay per view in December. So Homicide basically didn't do the "full damage" chair shot, but a less talented guy likely would? (assuming that Jesse Neal took the "full damage" version)
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Post by Michael Coello on Apr 7, 2010 12:35:46 GMT -5
To say TNA doesn't care about concussions doesn't seem fair, especially with the last case of it in TNA, Daffney. Daffney got one, and she ended up taking it easy after, either doing less on TV or not being on it to rest. She said as much after.
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dpg
Samurai Cop
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Post by dpg on Apr 7, 2010 12:36:49 GMT -5
I dislike chair shots to the head, unprotected one's anyway. They looked cool years ago but don't any more, now they just look nasty. I just don't get why Lance is linking that to Kanyon. Also on the Rob Terry bit, lots of other youngsters are being given pushes, Terry is just one of them, but he's being picked out because of his size and his history. He was a bodyguard who didn't do much, but tons of wrestlers have started out like that in the past.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Apr 7, 2010 12:48:43 GMT -5
Boy I know this won't be popular but I have to completely disagree with Storm on this and say that he is a huge hypocrite. For a guy who was in ECW for so long to come out and say he has a problem with unprotected chair shots is absolutely disgusting to me. Oh so he didn't know concussions were bad for people and hurt brains in the 90s? BULL AND CRAP!!! People have known for a few decades now the impact that concussions have on athletes and their brain. They've known it in football for a long time now. Nowinski's research is not completely new and is centered around a huge debate that has been goign on for many years now. I have studied and researched his research and researched it myself and a lot of it is somewhat bias in ways and tries to say a lot of things about concussions are facts when they are really still being debated and gets into other stuff I can't talk about here because then it will get too political. I respect Nowinski for doing the research and feel really bad that he had to retire due to a really bad injury like that but there is a reason why WWE hardly has anything to do with him anymore. They don't take too kindly to guys that encourage their industry to be regulated by people that don't understand it and who could have the potential to help destroy it. I never criticize Storm on his opinion of TNA although I think it is whiney and makes him look like a big mark which a lot of people within the industry agree with which is why they never say anything about it. There is a reason why most wrestlers don't go on the internet and whine about things. It makes them look like marks. Even most indy wrestlers know this and it has been an unwritten law in wrestling for a few years now. Storm to me sounds like a very bitter guy who coudln't get over in the big leagues and without Justin Credible. For him to just assume Rob Terry is on steroids is bullcrap. And so what if Rob Terry is on steroids? Something people have to realize is that biologically it is not the steroids that kill people. It is the abuse of steroids that kill people. Guys who have taken steroids such as RVD have come out and have said this over and over. It is the same as any other drug. If you are an addict you shouldn't take it. If you can't stop taking it because you are addicted to it then you need to seek out therapy for drug abuse and enter rehab. I don't encourage anyone to take steroids but I don't discourage it either. I believe in individualism and think people are responsible enough to make their own choices. These guys like Marc Mero coming out of the woodworks after the Benoit Tragedy and jumping up on soapboexes and attacking other guys such as Steve Blackman need to shut their mouth and stop degrading the industry that made them rich and take responsibility for their own action instead of pointing the finger at others.(yes Marc Mero did this in an interview that Blackman was apart of and I felt that he was extremely disrespectful to Blackman.) I'm not a big fan of Rob Terry but if the guy wants to take an unprotected chair shot to the f'ing head he can do that. If he can take it then good. If he can't then that was his stupid decision and he will have to face the consequences just like how everyone in ECW including LANCE STORM did. These are grown men who can make their own decisions. If some of them want to push the envelope then they have every right to push it. So wrestling fans on the internet aren't that big on hardcore or so called "trash" wrestling because it helps kill guys? Bullcrap. If that were true then Necro Butcher wouldn't be nearly as popular as he is on the internet. Necro Butcher is a man who has done tons of dangerous stuff even back when he was in CZW when people were acting all big and high and mighty on their soapbox saying how stupid and dangerous CZW was. While we are at it why don't we just ban the shooting star press? Remember how it almost broke Brock Lesnar's neck? Sure guys like Evan Bourne can do it perfectly and have never hurt themselves doing it but why take the risk right? We shouldn't let people like him make their own decisions and know their own limitations because he might get hurt and it is our job as wrestling fans or as promoters or as former pro wrestlers like Lance Storm to say that he shouldn't do it at all. That is how I look at this. If you don't agree then that is fine and I can respect the other side of the argument. I just find it weird that an industry as cut throat as wrestling that use to have guys tearing each other's eyeballs out in locker rooms are all up in arms about stuff like this now. I agree with a lot of your points, but there is one thing I disagree about enormously, and that is the idea that Storm is some kind of "hypocrite" because he worked for ECW and they used a lot of chair shots. Storm clearly states in the article that his present opinion on concussions and their effects is based on conversations with Chris Nowinski in which he learned the results of Nowinski's studies. You say that people have known about the effects of concussions for a long time, but the issue became much more well known in the public conciousness after events such as the Benoit tragedy. And there's also the simple fact that like any subject that continues to be researched, more information continues to be learned over time. Developing a new opinion about something as an older, more educated person does not make someone a hypocrite. The fact that Storm's time in ECW took place before the Benoit tragedy should be more than enough for you to be able to understand how his perspective may have changed, so the hypocrisy angle is the one glaring flaw in your otherwise well-reasoned argument IMO. Personally, I think TNA should just adopt similar rules to WWE as far as banning unprotected chairshots, and having some sort of "wellness" policy like WWE does. That said, at the present time I will not be participating in a boycott of TNA.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 7, 2010 12:54:31 GMT -5
Boy I know this won't be popular but I have to completely disagree with Storm on this and say that he is a huge hypocrite. For a guy who was in ECW for so long to come out and say he has a problem with unprotected chair shots is absolutely disgusting to me. A hypocrite is someone who says one thing while doing another, not a person whose opinion changes over time based on new things they learn or new experiences. If that were the case, we're all automatically hypocrites, because I know we don't have the same opinions on everything as we did when we were 5. I just don't see any logic in the assertion that a person can't change their opinion over time. Here's the logic. Driving at high speeds is dangerous. Someone has a job wherein they drive fast for a living. They get into an accident, and the injuries they sustain are treated and they are given pain medicine. They wish to get back as quickly as possible to doing the job they love, so they juice up on the meds they were given, only to get into another accident. Eventually, after many accidents, they are completely hooked on the pain meds. They don't have anymore accidents on the job, but wind up overdosing on the meds they became hooked on. All of this is directly related to that first accident because of the pressure to "get back out there and work". But I think it hinges on the fact that the one shot taken by Rob on the head delivers instant trauma that needs painkillers and such to recover from. It's treating a porbability as a certainty. yes, I know stuff like what Rob took is dangerous, but what I think i'm saying is that we have something could happen seen as something that did happen. I don't know if I'm clear or not, though. Could it just be an overall concern for the safety of performers that is spurred by the deaths of so many coworkers and friends? I can't speak for him, but I think it could very much be seeing how many dangerous things that have contributed to the deaths of many of them that are still present and glorified. No, we can't say "an unprotected chair shot killed Kanyon" as a certainty, but do we really know how much the lifestyle that took a lot of other performers contributed to his drug addiction? It might be something as simple as wanting a safer working environment.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Apr 7, 2010 13:08:59 GMT -5
Yeah, this is really just someone who doesn't want to watch TNA because they aren't taking on the issues that have been problems in the industry like drug abuse and concussions. Some have criticized WWE's wellness policy and called it "a joke" and stuff like that, but that company has even sent people who don't work for them anymore to rehab, and fired top stars for refusing to go to rehab. They've banned certain moves that are high risk for concussions. Considering that this is the pro wrestling business we're talking about, they've done a lot. TNA, to my knowledge, has done nothing. What WWE does in regard to these issues is more significant of course as they are the industry leader, but if Lance Storm doesn't want to support a wrestling company that hasn't taken those kind of steps, that's his perogative. You don't have to agree with him, but it certainly doesn't make the guy a hypocrite or anything else. He's a guy with an opinion that he's acting on. In that sense he's just like the rest of us.
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erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by erisi236 on Apr 7, 2010 13:29:04 GMT -5
I wouldn't call Storm a hypocrite or even necessarily wrong, but he does seem to take it a bit far.
It's as if Kanyon had died of a subdural hematoma 2 days after taking a massive chair shot and then the following Monday TNA did a "Night of a Thousand Chair Shots: A tribute to Chris Kanyon" show or something.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Apr 7, 2010 18:33:22 GMT -5
So, he stops watching because 1) the chair shot and 2) Rob looks like he's on roids, both he says are seemingly glorifying the things that killed other wrestlers. I think he jumped a little too far in his conclusions. It's a good point to make about health, but he just jumped way too far into it. this is how i see it too. i usually agree with most of what Lance says but i think he took it too far. i didn't like the shot either and winced when it happened. but his 'non rant' drips with subtle accusations and running with a tangent. very drama queen laden to me. i'm more offended by the over booked and mis-booked ending to Impact than the chair shot. Rob Terry is a grown man, who chooses to put whatever he does into his body, he more than likely was all for the chair shot as it would make him look like a monster. no one is forcing him to live his life, nor any of the wrestlers that have unfortunately passed away. they all made decisions, some with bad pasts rise out of it (Shawn Michaels, Sting) others succumb to their own vices.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 7, 2010 19:02:36 GMT -5
That's not his point. His point was concussions, which can lead to cases of depression, which obviously was in Kanyon's life. Now, he may've had it before, but gaining concussions through different means may've helped raise up the danger of his depression and his coping abilities. For those using the logical fallacy direction, it might be a straw man, as the argument is against chairs being involved in his death and obviously taking that down the argument because it WASN'T the argument in the first place. His argument is about "concussions" and their ability to inhibit the mind, which is the case with many football players who have committed suicide. Now, a tackle or big bump wasn't the cause of their suicide, but the concussions lead to the issues in the brain. That's what Storm is saying. He's also bringing up the issue of the steroids and heart problems that help cause it. As Storm rightly stated, they are just a factor, along with the painpills and other things related to potential heart problems, which ends up being the cause of most wrestler's death. The problem is it paints a bad picture that, what matters is a body, and whether Rob Terry got it by natural means or not is irrelevant. That's what is important in TNA when it comes to pushing someone as strong as they are pushing Rob Terry, especially as an up and coming babyface. There are other guys being pushed for different reasons and different talents, but before, Rob Terry was a bodyguard losing every week. Hogan comes in, he's riding to the top. It's like, an easy way to the top, if you get me. And Storm, because of his personal loss, sees it as a major problem that TNA doesn't seem to care about. That's why he's boycotting it. It's also important to note that, according to Bill Behrens who picked up on it, that Homicide essentially threw the chair, instead of leveling him with a legit shot, so basically, Homicide worked it so that it wouldn't be as damaging. So basically, Homicide worked the chair shot, making it look killer, but it wasn't in reality. However, not everyone is as good a worker as Homicide, and others may try to incorporate that into their own matches and take legit shots, like Jesse Neal did at the pay per view in December. So Homicide basically didn't do the "full damage" chair shot, but a less talented guy likely would? (assuming that Jesse Neal took the "full damage" version) I definitely believe that. Homicide, I'm going to guess, is believed to be a good worker, I haven't heard much to the contrary. And the fact he made Rob Terry look like a million dollars, and protected him with the chair shot proves that Homicide knows what he's doing, but that may not be the case with everyone. The report about Jesse Neal, like, it maybe false, as internet reports might be, but I think that might be an example of a guy who really wants to make an impression on TNA and the viewers, so that maybe one reason he took a vicious chair shot, and why nothing is coming out about Rob Terry taking the shot, because my guess is it was preplanned, and Terry and Homicide knew what was coming and how to approach it. Where as Neal may've done it a bit differently and got heat for it, likely from 3D (to be honest, I see Brother Ray yelling at him, mostly because he seems like the type of person who yells at people). Bill Behrens brought it up as being not the best idea, because accidents do happen, despite how good a worker Homicide is. Hell, RD Reynolds knows first hand what happens when the guy on the receiving end doesn't protect himself properly. Behrens felt there were other ways to go about making Terry look like a monster without the chairshot. And even with a less damaging chair shot, and working a swing, wrestling is still a dangerous sport, no matter how many precautions are taken. From the fact that he threw the chair, it's obvious TNA were trying to protect Rob Terry. But, that being said, Lance has a very good reason to be a bit upset. People may not realize that these are people Lance knew, some more then others. How many people have known that many who have died in their lives, and all mostly from similar causes. Head trauma, leading to depression and other psychological problems, or heart issues relating from steroid abuse and painpill addiction. And as he said, getting off the gas may cause depression, add that on top of the potential brain injuries from head trauma, and you have a lethal dose. Maybe he's over reacting, especially since it may seem that TNA went out of their way to try and protect Rob Terry, but people have to see where he's coming from.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
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Post by Celgress on Apr 7, 2010 19:14:46 GMT -5
Lance Storm boycotts Impact, my reaction: ;D
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
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Post by Lancers on Apr 8, 2010 0:16:47 GMT -5
Sounds like Lance Storm's grievance over the loss of what I assume was a close friend of his led him to giving up on TNA's product. I don't know how many of you lost of loved one or a good friend, but your emotional state can be quite fragile shortly after their passing, so I'm not gonna criticize the man for venting his anger over an organization that would allow their talent to perform a stunt that is just flat out reckless and dangerous.
The other thing is I'm sure many of you don't like it when someone criticizes your opinions. You don't have to agree with what the man says, but try to see it his way for a moment. He listed 41 friends of his who have passed away from steroids, drug addictions, brain damage, etc. He certainly has seen the very worst that this business has to offer from a first-hand perspective. While you may not share many of his criticisms, I believe those criticisms are coming from a very honest place.
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Post by Ash Kingston on Apr 8, 2010 2:17:43 GMT -5
Sounds like Lance Storm's grievance over the loss of what I assume was a close friend of his led him to giving up on TNA's product. I don't know how many of you lost of loved one or a good friend, but your emotional state can be quite fragile shortly after their passing, so I'm not gonna criticize the man for venting his anger over an organization that would allow their talent to perform a stunt that is just flat out reckless and dangerous. The other thing is I'm sure many of you don't like it when someone criticizes your opinions. You don't have to agree with what the man says, but try to see it his way for a moment. He listed 41 friends of his who have passed away from steroids, drug addictions, brain damage, etc. He certainly has seen the very worst that this business has to offer from a first-hand perspective. While you may not share many of his criticisms, I believe those criticisms are coming from a very honest place. ...is it bad that I'm weirded out by Lancers giving a serious answer? I mean, either way, I agree with him, but... it's just odd, yanno? o.o
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