Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2010 18:16:49 GMT -5
Its natural seleciton man.
If they didn't suck in some way they wouldn't be buried. Everything else is just an excuse.
O.T.S.S.
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Post by Lionheart on Jul 15, 2010 18:17:07 GMT -5
It's not that people don't understand there are limited time and wins available, they're complaining that the wrong guys are getting the exposure and victories. And specifically, I was objecting to Matt's "State the thing people take issue with as though it's an insight" style of posting. Look, there is a limited amount of time on TV. He isn't as high profile as a lot of others and will end up losing matches. If ECW was around, this wouldn't happen. That's all. Look, I'm sorry that you are a Yoshi mark and he isn't getting the airtime he used to. I'm a Christian mark and am upset he was stuck in a storyline with Vickie and Dolph Ziggler. We all have our favorites. Actually, while I like Yoshi, I figure the midcard is his ceiling, and I like Christian too. But if you had a thread about wishing Christian would get into the main-event and I showed up and said, "Christian is a mid-carder, get over it" would you find that at all helpful? Do you see where I'm coming from here?
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Jul 15, 2010 18:17:44 GMT -5
You make Yoshi win more then someone else needs to lose more. There's only so many matches to go around each week, and so many guys that can win from them to get exposure? How can this be complained at? It's not that people don't understand there are limited time and wins available, they're complaining that the wrong guys are getting the exposure and victories. And specifically, I was objecting to Matt's "State the thing people take issue with as though it's an insight" style of posting. Well that's fine. If you don't want someone to be the bottom guy, that's fine. It's an opinion. But there's never going to be one guy that absolutely 100% everyone agrees on. There's threads on Morrison, Henry, Yoshi etc and you can disagree, but people should just realise that if their guy isn't getting the push, that someone is. Even reading articles around the net, Kevin Eck complains that 'Morrison has no momentum right now.' Erm, yeah, but HELLO!!! EVAN BOURNE HAS SPENT THE PAST FEW WEEKS WITH CENA, JERICHO, ORTON AND EDGE FOR GOODNESS SAKE!! Morrison is lower down, but it means Bourne can be elevated. Why do people not think about this?
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Matt Dunn
Hank Scorpio
It was inevitable.
Posts: 5,596
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 15, 2010 18:20:42 GMT -5
Look, there is a limited amount of time on TV. He isn't as high profile as a lot of others and will end up losing matches. If ECW was around, this wouldn't happen. That's all. Look, I'm sorry that you are a Yoshi mark and he isn't getting the airtime he used to. I'm a Christian mark and am upset he was stuck in a storyline with Vickie and Dolph Ziggler. We all have our favorites. Actually, while I like Yoshi, I figure the midcard is his ceiling, and I like Christian too. But if you had a thread about wishing Christian would get into the main-event and I showed up and said, "Christian is a mid-carder, get over it" would you find that at all helpful? Do you see where I'm coming from here? I see your point but do you seriously view Yoshi and Christian on the same level?
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Post by Fantozzi on Jul 15, 2010 18:23:11 GMT -5
You make Yoshi win more then someone else needs to lose more. There's only so many matches to go around each week, and so many guys that can win from them to get exposure? How can this be complained at? It's not that people don't understand there are limited time and wins available, they're complaining that the wrong guys are getting the exposure and victories. And specifically, I was objecting to Matt's "State the thing people take issue with as though it's an insight" style of posting. of course there are limited time and wins available, but the problem is that most of those are occupied by the same people and i can understand cena and orton, but is it really needed to have big show in the main event?
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Post by Lionheart on Jul 15, 2010 18:26:37 GMT -5
Actually, while I like Yoshi, I figure the midcard is his ceiling, and I like Christian too. But if you had a thread about wishing Christian would get into the main-event and I showed up and said, "Christian is a mid-carder, get over it" would you find that at all helpful? Do you see where I'm coming from here? I see your point but do you seriously view Yoshi and Christian on the same level? I only used Christian as the example because you said he was your guy. In the case of Yoshi, you say "He's a jobber." Why? Because he's at the bottom of the card and loses a lot. And why is he in this position? Because he's a jobber. And the loop of circular reasoning goes on forever, telling nobody anything they don't already know, and completely missing the point of the discussion, which is that some people think Yoshi should be, you know, higher up on the card and win more so he isn't just a jobber. I mean, if you wanted to make an argument for why Yoshi only deserves to be at the bottom of the card, sure people would disagree with you, but at least it would be actual discussion.
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hassanchop
Grimlock
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Posts: 14,794
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Post by hassanchop on Jul 15, 2010 18:42:55 GMT -5
The secret agent played by Vin Diesel is being buried? I didn't even know he was in WWE! Oh he was buried long ago, and the one played by Ice Cube took his spot.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jul 15, 2010 18:49:02 GMT -5
Disagreed. JTG is a prime example of a guy who is getting buried right now. Why you may ask? {Spoiler}CHAVO GUERRERO pinned him on Superstars
You know your career is looking bleak when you lose to the guy whose gimmick for awhile was that he always lost to a leprechaun. There are plenty of people that do get buried in the WWE, that's just a fact. Sure, getting buried does not mean that they are doomed to future endeavours. It does however mean that their chances of main eventing are slim to none. Just take a good look at MVP following his losing streak angle. He had tons of momentum before then and seemed primed to main event as a top heel until he got in trouble backstage and he was sent on the losing path with losses to the likes of Kung Fu Naki and KIZARNY. It's hard to recover from something like that. The only way to overcome that is to either stand out from the rest so much that they have no choice but to push you (Bourne) or to shine when you are given the chance to stand out. (Miz) Not everybody can do this though and even when they do, their pushes are usually nothing more than the usual stop and start nonsense that leaves them either no more over than they were previously, or worse even less so then they started out. It also doesn't help when the guys being pushed are put in positions where it's nearly impossible to them to succeed. Whether it be by exposing their weaknesses or hiding their strengths, either way it makes it alot more difficult for the guys to get over if they even get the chance. Really at this point everyone should be given some opportunity to get over. By that I don't mean debuting someone when they're as green as grass and expecting them to succeed. I also don't mean cutting their legs out from underneath them in the middle of their big push and killing their momentum dead. No, not every loss is an example of someone being buried. But then when that one loss leads to another, and those lead to two more, eventually the wrestler in question finds themselves waist deep in the ground. All of that you've just said is still just someone losing. Even over so many months, someone can be on a low spot because they've chosen to go with someone else. MVP isn't being buried, even now. You've got Christian, Kofi and Matt Hardy in the mid-card. If they weren't there then MVP would get a shot. Back when he was in his losing streak gimmick it was a storyline that was obviously going to end and could easily be recovered from. When was this end and recovery? He won what, 2 matches and then went to RAW and disappeared again, then back to Smackdown where he's done what? In wrestling's best periods, EVERYONE had something and anyone could win on any given show. Now you're lucky if 9 people have something a show that isn't throw away and after that, nothing and that is why we are seeing WWE scramble to push guys up the card now and it's so hit and miss.
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Dean-o
Grimlock
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Post by Dean-o on Jul 15, 2010 20:27:50 GMT -5
What I find strange is that more people seem to be mad when a talented wrestler is jobbing every week while picking up a fat paycheck then when a wrestler is released.
When the guy is losing, people complain about how he's not being used right, but when someone is fired, out come the "meh, no big loss" and "What's he doing in the Impact Zone" jokes.
Honestly, not everybody is supposed to grow from curtain jerker to main eventer. I don't think guys like Yoshi, MVP, Henry, and others care if they stare at the ceiling every night because at the end of the week, they are all making a decent living.
Every wrestler has their spot on the roster. Some will be main eventers for years to come. Others, will be the guys who put the others over. At the end of the day, it's a job, with a paycheck. This is scripted entertainment. Guys are paid to lose.
Not everybody can be pushed at once, and honestly we will complain no matter what. The second Morrison gets pushed more, people will complain that Evan Bourne has disappeared and he's back to jobber status.
Sure, I would love more even booking so that everybody has their chance to shine, but that's just not going to happen, nor has it ever happened.
You could argue that in the Attitude Era plenty of guys were over, but I feel that's just because there was so many title belts out there, and everybody got a piece of one at one time or another. But let's be honest: holding the European or Hardcore title meant jack s***. Even the IC belt went in the trash since it was moved so much.
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Post by Brian Suntan on Jul 15, 2010 21:01:06 GMT -5
Basically the post above. If they are in a job and regularly on TV, they aren't being buried. They might not be being pushed to the top, but not everyone can be.
I don't get why people act like losing in a fake sport is a fate worse than death. It doesn't really matter.
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Jul 15, 2010 21:19:02 GMT -5
You do have a point. The problem is though that at the moment WWE PPV buyrates are down from where they were. Part of that is due to many of the main eventers being the same guys from the the past few years. They need to try and push as many people as they can as possible in order to fill those gaps. Sheamus alone isn't going to cut it, and even he isn't a true main eventer in some people's eyes. They need to push people while they still have the old guard around to help them get there.
Eventually these guys at the top are going to have to step down due to injuries and such, some already have. Even guys like Cena and Orton may go down sometime soon due to an injury or two. That's where you need all these other guys to come in and fill those gaps. The WWE needs to try and push as many people as possible while they still can in order to prevent any of the current main eventers going down from hurting their business.
That's why some people get upset when WWE constantly stalls out a wrestler's push. It's stupid and now is not the time for it. They need to push these new faces hard and fast. That's the only way most of them are going to get over. Not everyone is going to improve to the levels of Miz or get over purely based on their in ring work like Evan. Some people are going to need all the help that they can get. Sure, some may not be ready for these pushes, in fact most of them probably won't make it. You never know if someone will get over though until you at least try.
That's what WWE needs to do right now: try and give guys legitimate pushes.
Of course that doesn't mean everyone needs to be pushed at once. Nobody will get over if you do that.
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Matt Dunn
Hank Scorpio
It was inevitable.
Posts: 5,596
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 15, 2010 21:21:25 GMT -5
^It's the WWE. Don't hold your breath.
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SEAN CARLESS
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More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 16, 2010 3:56:33 GMT -5
WWE just needs to make (established) tag teams out of the guys they are not pushing, and have them feud. The Bees & the Harts weren't even midcarders in the mid-80's, but as units they put on great matches and had a place and a role that you cared about. Same with a lot of teams in the 90's. It can still work. I don't care who wins and loses. I just want to care about them while they wrestle. There's zero reason why they can't do it, outside of maybe a prejudice against their "Rasslin'" roots.
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Jul 16, 2010 5:15:47 GMT -5
All of that you've just said is still just someone losing. Even over so many months, someone can be on a low spot because they've chosen to go with someone else. MVP isn't being buried, even now. You've got Christian, Kofi and Matt Hardy in the mid-card. If they weren't there then MVP would get a shot. Back when he was in his losing streak gimmick it was a storyline that was obviously going to end and could easily be recovered from. When was this end and recovery? He won what, 2 matches and then went to RAW and disappeared again, then back to Smackdown where he's done what? In wrestling's best periods, EVERYONE had something and anyone could win on any given show. Now you're lucky if 9 people have something a show that isn't throw away and after that, nothing and that is why we are seeing WWE scramble to push guys up the card now and it's so hit and miss. He's recovered from the jobber gimmick, back to where he was. If they wanted to go even further with him, they could. But sorry, there is absolutely zero difference in how shows are booked now, in comparison to the so called 'glory years'. Vince's WWE has always had a ladder, has always had people losing, has always had JTTS's in a stable so that the main eventer in the stable doesn't have to lose etc. There is no difference in this sense. You'd never have someone like Scotty-Too-Hotty suddenly be able to beat a main eventer, just like MVP wouldn't suddenly be able to do it now. After a gradual push then yes, but it's revisionist to say that everyone could beat everyone 10 years ago. It's not true. The argument that it's 'always the same guys' is dead. This year has blown it out of the water, if the last couple hadn't already. They've pushed so many young guys that the argument regularly became 'this new guy sucks, why are they pushing him when he hasn't paid his dues' rather than 'they aren't pushing young guys!' Do think they could make tag teams out of the un-used guys though. Especially now ECW is gone. Before they would have needed these guys as singles guys because there wasn't as many, but now there's no reason why they can't make tag teams considering the depth they now have. I think that's what they are doing with the likes of Kozlov/Santino. Not every pairing needs to be 'odd couple' but they can do it.
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SAJ Forth
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Post by SAJ Forth on Jul 16, 2010 7:17:08 GMT -5
They're burying porn now? Just the unreleased Playboy photos of Eve they took before their new direction.
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Jul 16, 2010 11:16:19 GMT -5
Disagreed. JTG is a prime example of a guy who is getting buried right now. Why you may ask? {Spoiler}CHAVO GUERRERO pinned him on Superstars
You know your career is looking bleak when you lose to the guy whose gimmick for awhile was that he always lost to a leprechaun. There are plenty of people that do get buried in the WWE, that's just a fact. Sure, getting buried does not mean that they are doomed to future endeavours. It does however mean that their chances of main eventing are slim to none. Just take a good look at MVP following his losing streak angle. He had tons of momentum before then and seemed primed to main event as a top heel until he got in trouble backstage and he was sent on the losing path with losses to the likes of Kung Fu Naki and KIZARNY. It's hard to recover from something like that. The only way to overcome that is to either stand out from the rest so much that they have no choice but to push you (Bourne) or to shine when you are given the chance to stand out. (Miz) Not everybody can do this though and even when they do, their pushes are usually nothing more than the usual stop and start nonsense that leaves them either no more over than they were previously, or worse even less so then they started out. It also doesn't help when the guys being pushed are put in positions where it's nearly impossible to them to succeed. Whether it be by exposing their weaknesses or hiding their strengths, either way it makes it alot more difficult for the guys to get over if they even get the chance. Really at this point everyone should be given some opportunity to get over. By that I don't mean debuting someone when they're as green as grass and expecting them to succeed. I also don't mean cutting their legs out from underneath them in the middle of their big push and killing their momentum dead. No, not every loss is an example of someone being buried. But then when that one loss leads to another, and those lead to two more, eventually the wrestler in question finds themselves waist deep in the ground. I'm with you on this. I especially agree with the MVP thing.
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Jul 16, 2010 11:23:38 GMT -5
You do have a point. The problem is though that at the moment WWE PPV buyrates are down from where they were. Part of that is due to many of the main eventers being the same guys from the the past few years. They need to try and push as many people as they can as possible in order to fill those gaps. Sheamus alone isn't going to cut it, and even he isn't a true main eventer in some people's eyes. They need to push people while they still have the old guard around to help them get there. Eventually these guys at the top are going to have to step down due to injuries and such, some already have. Even guys like Cena and Orton may go down sometime soon due to an injury or two. That's where you need all these other guys to come in and fill those gaps. The WWE needs to try and push as many people as possible while they still can in order to prevent any of the current main eventers going down from hurting their business. That's why some people get upset when WWE constantly stalls out a wrestler's push. It's stupid and now is not the time for it. They need to push these new faces hard and fast. That's the only way most of them are going to get over. Not everyone is going to improve to the levels of Miz or get over purely based on their in ring work like Evan. Some people are going to need all the help that they can get. Sure, some may not be ready for these pushes, in fact most of them probably won't make it. You never know if someone will get over though until you at least try. That's what WWE needs to do right now: try and give guys legitimate pushes. Of course that doesn't mean everyone needs to be pushed at once. Nobody will get over if you do that. They already do exactly that. Miz is where he is because he has improved but without the machine behind him he wouldn't be winning like he does, and same with Evan. They book him against the likes of Jericho and Edge because they are bringing him up a level. They didn't put him there because of his ability, they put him there because they want to establish him. They don't stall pushes either. They give them a shot, they see how it goes, and if they do well, they stay. The Kofi example is always used, but he was elevated. Before Orton he was a mid-card gimmick, now he is his own character with a real connection with the audience, and is in that position just underneath the main event. That is elevation. They make main eventers. They make upper-mid carders. They just can't have everyone in these spots. MVP is suffering because Christian and Kofi are on the same show that he is. They have a strong mid-card. If they decided to put MVP higher, they would be not having Christian win as much, and people would be complaining about burial there. Someone will always need to be losing more.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jul 16, 2010 11:30:10 GMT -5
I think that being buried is when you are not on TV at all, not because you're losing. I mean, it's a work; Does it really matter if you lose?
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 16, 2010 11:46:30 GMT -5
I think that being buried is when you are not on TV at all, not because you're losing. I mean, it's a work; Does it really matter if you lose? If you lose so much/get so little TV time that they never make any merchandise (I don't see Primo or Yoshi ever getting their own T-shirt) for you to get a cut off of sales from, then yes, it can matter, just a bit.
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Post by Alucard on Jul 16, 2010 13:18:38 GMT -5
XXX is being buried? I didn't even know Vin Diesel was on the roster.
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