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Post by pantspantspants on Oct 26, 2010 17:39:54 GMT -5
I want to see Punk beaten, and beaten viciously. Spouting that drivel over and over again makes any sane person want to smack him in the chops. I also hate Barrett and am wanting to see him get what is due to him via Cena and the Undertaker.
So I don't think it is dead. I enjoy wrestling because of the pantomime and performance. The politics and other crap doesn't interest me.
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Big L
Grimlock
Posts: 13,883
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Post by Big L on Oct 26, 2010 17:41:39 GMT -5
Miz and Wade
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JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
Posts: 6,880
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Post by JMA on Oct 26, 2010 17:52:42 GMT -5
What myth? I want heels to lose all the time. Heels whose ring-work I enjoy.
It's more about the right guy beating them.
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Post by waluigi on Oct 26, 2010 17:56:58 GMT -5
CM Punk, X-Pac, Drew McIntyre. Were any of these men good heels? You want to see CM Punk's ring work and promos, but aren't you supposed to hate him? Is that a good heel? No one liked X-Pac at all, but since no one liked him, was he a good heel? Drew McIntyre, for months on end, got "The Gatecrashers on Superstars" like reactions (and it's still not the best) and is completely boring. Is he a good heel? What is "a good heel" exactly? And nobody wants to see any of them get beaten. People want to see Punk win and be dominant. Which people you takling about? Marks and children want to see him get taken down a peg. We have to take Smarks and Marks on a case by case basis, you know.
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JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
Posts: 6,880
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Post by JMA on Oct 26, 2010 17:57:02 GMT -5
On a related note, I HATE how "meta" the concept of heels has become, with endless discussions of what is and isn't a real heel.
But, from an objective perspective, I think what a heel needs to have is the ability to make the company MONEY and to make the FACE LOOK GOOD. I think it's that simple: a good heel doesn't just make the fans boo him, he gets the fans to cheer his OPPONENT. And he makes the company money.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Oct 26, 2010 19:08:27 GMT -5
He'd like to disagree.
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zeez
Patti Mayonnaise
Yeah. That's right.
Posts: 32,702
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Post by zeez on Oct 26, 2010 20:35:37 GMT -5
When watching a tv show, or reality show, you see this heel, and something bothers you about them that you want something bad to happen to them in return. With wrestling, for us, it's different because we not only know the fix is in, but we get so much information about backstage happenings and know so much about it, that's it's hard. That's a big part of it. It's hard to care about seeing heels lose (or faces win for that matter) when we know it's all predetermined anyway (and a lot of times we know the winners ahead of the ppv). Personally, I still love seeing heels lose, especially ones who get unnecessary pushes or try too hard to get over *COUGHdrewmcintyreCOUGH* And anybody I don't like I'd rather see lose on TV instead of getting fired because how can I see them get beat up if they aren't on my TV? And when asking a question like this, always remember that we don't represent the majority of the WWE audience. So while we like whoever we want to, most casual fans will still cheer faces and boo heels.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Oct 26, 2010 20:46:03 GMT -5
A good example on a tv show, mostly because it's a tv show I like, is the South Park episode "Breast Cancer Show Ever", which was built up kinda like a wrestling match is built up. The babyface is Wendy and the heel is Cartman. So, they shine the babyface by having her talk about Breast Cancer awareness, the heel gets heat by ridiculing that concept, they have hope spots, in which it looks like Wendy beats up Cartman, then Cartman gets more heat because she tells his mom on her and she can't fight him, then Wendy makes the comeback when the Principal tells her to fight the guy, and then the finish comes when Cartman gets beaten up (and of course, Cartman gets his heat back in the end by thinking that his friends will think he's cool no matter what). Now, that's a really rough wrestling match thing, a wrestler would probably say it better. But, despite the fact I think Cartman is really hilarious, I really wanted to see him get his ass kicked at the end, and they built it up really well.
Like, I don't go on South Park message boards, and I don't have the connection with South Park that I do with wrestling, but how can one connect with cartoon characters like they do with real humans. Which is one reason why you can't just lump wrestling in automatically with other forms of entertainment like WWE wants to do at times, because it's so different from everything else.
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Post by dh03grad on Oct 26, 2010 21:01:38 GMT -5
WWE seriously hasn't had a real over heel since Edge in 2006.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Oct 26, 2010 21:08:11 GMT -5
WWE seriously hasn't had a real over heel since Edge in 2006. I think people can disagree with that, especially this past year with Jericho and Punk. As I've said, and others, these guys were attacked by fans. To me, the only reason Jericho is a better heel then Punk, is Jericho was attacked by more people then Punk. If you can get someone so emotionally riled up, that they want to do some sort of harm to you, then you're really good at getting people to hate you.
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Post by dlg3000 on Oct 26, 2010 22:13:13 GMT -5
For me, it is the Miz. I have become a fan of his work though he is only above average. He is such a good heel that I actually dislike the guy, yet I never met him.
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xxx4lyfe
ALF
I think Sheamus speaks for all of us
Posts: 1,043
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Post by xxx4lyfe on Oct 26, 2010 22:17:05 GMT -5
And being that Punk is my favorite wrestler, when he interrupted the Happy Birthday to Rey's daughter, I was really disliking him for those moments. I was like... "... you bastards!"
Plus Jericho & Punk have both gotten beat down by fans. So their awesome as heels.
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wwerules60
El Dandy
"Bring what? a vomit bag? a fig newton?"
Posts: 8,999
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Post by wwerules60 on Oct 26, 2010 23:15:09 GMT -5
As much as many people with disagree with me, Triple H had this perfectly in 2003/4, I don't think there was anyone that didn't want to see him get his ass kicked and lose that belt.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 27, 2010 1:37:31 GMT -5
You're right about wanting to see a heel get his ass kicked not existing anymore since kayfabe is dead. We know they're not really getting beat up, but an effective heel can still make people want to see them lose matches or get humilated, just like you would want to see a villian get theirs at the end of a movie.
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H-Fist
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,485
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Post by H-Fist on Oct 27, 2010 2:00:15 GMT -5
I badly want to see Miz and Dolph Ziggler get their asses handed to them. Same with Goofy Swagger and that damn Thoaring Eagle. I wanted Punk to beat the piss out of Rey-Rey and hold his own against Taker, but I think that's more a function of WWE matching him up against a pair of uber-protected babyfaces that almost no one feuds with and comes out looking better. Barrett, too, is someone I want to see get beat. Cody Rhodes is too entertaining at this point, but he could get there.
It's a matter of letting go and getting into the show, rather than just sitting down for wrestling.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,320
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 27, 2010 2:11:21 GMT -5
Miz definitely. That's why I consider him one of the best heels today. He's got that perfect mix of being entertaining AND wanting me to see him get his ass kicked. He reminds me a lot of Corporation Rock in that regard.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,975
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Oct 27, 2010 2:35:27 GMT -5
Here's the bigger problem for me, as a fan.
I really don't give a shit who wins or loses, at all. Not a single care in the world.
So, to that end, I don't watch the new stuff a lot and when I do, I find it hard to get involved because.....it doesn't matter who wins or loses because the story carries on either way and I don't care who wins or loses because the writers don't care in the first place.
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Post by pantspantspants on Oct 27, 2010 2:52:23 GMT -5
Well this idea was proven to have no legs incredibly quickly.
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Post by Cactus Jack on Oct 27, 2010 6:15:23 GMT -5
As much as many people with disagree with me, Triple H had this perfectly in 2003/4, I don't think there was anyone that didn't want to see him get his ass kicked and lose that belt. Truth. You don't realise how well you've been worked until years later.
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Post by avalanchi on Oct 27, 2010 10:05:08 GMT -5
False. Triple H; reign of terror. I was a smark back then too; but there was nothing more that I wanted than to see HHH get his ass handed too him. I didn't really like Booker T that much, Kevin Nash, or Scott Steiner. But somebody had to whoop his ass.
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