The Myth of "Guys you want to see get beaten"...

[Allie Kitsune]

A lot of times, when discussing heels, overness, what have you, people will say that a good heel is a guy that you want to see get beaten?

But does that sort of sentiment even exist anymore?

If you like someone, regardless of alignment, you want to see them win, and look dominant doing so, getting long title reigns and so on.

If you don't, you want them off your TV and jettisoned from the company, never to waste the time that should have been used for your favorites instead again.

It seems like a lot of fans just don't have the time of day for someone who isn't one of their favorites. There isn't the "Guy who you watch to see him get his ass kicked" anymore.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

[waluigi]

Oct 26, 2010 12:27:03 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Nah.

It's less, "Die, Barrett", and more, "Please, Cena, don't die".

[ellisdee]

Oct 26, 2010 12:27:03 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Yup!

A few years back, JBL too. You wanted to see him get his ass handed to him so bad.

[Angus Mcloud]

Its all "X-Pac heat". No longer a bad thing now its the normal heat for heels.

[PKO]

I like the Miz, but enjoyed seeing him lose the US title to R-Truth, Bret Hart and Daniel Bryan.

I like Vickie Guerrero, but enjoyed seeing her get her various comeuppances(except for Edge's divorce promo).

I want storylines and results to take the natural route of things. If that means the heel winning good, if that means the face winning good. I want to be entertained, and if someone can do that (regardless of face or heel) then they're doing their job as far as I'm concerned.

If a face is not entertaining and the heel is, then I will probably want the heel to win. For example, HHH's matches with Orton and Sheamus at Wrestlemania. Both the heels were much more interesting than HHH so I wanted them to win.

But generally, I want the face to come out on top eventually. I only want un-entertaining people off my TV. I still want heels to get beaten (as long as it makes sense).

[xxshoyuweeniexx]

CM Punk, X-Pac, Drew McIntyre. Were any of these men good heels?

You want to see CM Punk's ring work and promos, but aren't you supposed to hate him? Is that a good heel?

No one liked X-Pac at all, but since no one liked him, was he a good heel?

Drew McIntyre, for months on end, got "The Gatecrashers on Superstars" like reactions (and it's still not the best) and is completely boring. Is he a good heel?

What is "a good heel" exactly?

[Allie Kitsune]

Oct 26, 2010 12:36:48 GMT -5 xxshoyuweeniexx said:

CM Punk, X-Pac, Drew McIntyre. Were any of these men good heels?

You want to see CM Punk's ring work and promos, but aren't you supposed to hate him? Is that a good heel?

No one liked X-Pac at all, but since no one liked him, was he a good heel?

Drew McIntyre, for months on end, got "The Gatecrashers on Superstars" like reactions (and it's still not the best) and is completely boring. Is he a good heel?

What is "a good heel" exactly?

And nobody wants to see any of them get beaten.

People want to see Punk win and be dominant.

People wanted X-Pac fired. People want D-Mac gone so someone they like gets his screen time.

There's no such thing as a guy you want to see just for the purpose of getting their ass kicked, and that's the point I'm trying to make. The death of Kayfabe and a more cynical viewing audience has made it nearly impossible. You either like someone, or you want them fired so someone you DO like can take their place.

[Alex Shelley]

For the most part, the only heel I want to see beaten, and enjoy seeing beaten, is The Miz. I love the guy, he's one of my favorites, and I absolutely love seeing him get his ass handed to him.

The rest of the heels I like, I don't really care if they win or lose, I just like seeing them on my TV because they amuse me. Heels I don't like just get a "meh" from me and I don't really care if they're there or not... Although seeing Goldust beat the hell out of Teddy Jr is sure fun, but that's because I'm still bitter at Teddy for the Legacy breakup and the fact that he went somewhere faster than Cody. I'll get over it eventually, I'm sure.

[Angus Mcloud]

Cena and Mysterio are two guys that I really want to see get beat. They are the current heels for me. I have nothing personal against either of them. But guys who always win no matter what causes people to want them to lose. Not on a big scale but for me they are the heels. I love to see them lose.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Oct 26, 2010 12:40:15 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

Oct 26, 2010 12:36:48 GMT -5 xxshoyuweeniexx said:

CM Punk, X-Pac, Drew McIntyre. Were any of these men good heels?

You want to see CM Punk's ring work and promos, but aren't you supposed to hate him? Is that a good heel?

No one liked X-Pac at all, but since no one liked him, was he a good heel?

Drew McIntyre, for months on end, got "The Gatecrashers on Superstars" like reactions (and it's still not the best) and is completely boring. Is he a good heel?

What is "a good heel" exactly?

And nobody wants to see any of them get beaten.

People want to see Punk win and be dominant.

People wanted X-Pac fired. People want D-Mac gone so someone they like gets his screen time.

There's no such thing as a guy you want to see just for the purpose of getting their ass kicked, and that's the point I'm trying to make. The death of Kayfabe and a more cynical viewing audience has made it nearly impossible. You either like someone, or you want them fired so someone you DO like can take their place.

With Punk, he just has a following, especially considering his background prior to signing with WWE. He does get heel heat from me (that damned hoodie he was wearing especially), but I still can enjoy some of his one-liners. If he suddenly got fired, I'd be sad because I would no longer get to see wrestlers I like embarrass him.

Same with a lot of heels- watching old NWA shows on Classics On Demand, I noticed Ric Flair getting a lot of face pops during interviews, but he could still make you hate him through his ring work and character actions. Audiences are a little more jaded now, but every heel can't possibly be booed by every fan. The old tropes are still alive.

As for McIntyre, he grew on me. He's quite the effective toolbag now.

[Deleted]

I think what heels in 2010 have to do is making them losing more entertaining than them winning. Not so much about people wanting them to lose.

Like Jericho - his character when he loses big matches was much more entertaining than when he would win a lot.

Same for Edge - I like Edge and all, but it was soooo entertaining to watch him rebound from a huge loss.

So maybe that's what it takes. The ability to make losing more entertaining to watch than winning, not just being "hated" by the audience.

Like when Punk lost the hair match. Seeing his antics with the mask and the towel over the head was much cooler than Rey losing the mask

[Allie Kitsune]

For me, personally, I think the last guy I really wanted to see get his ass kicked, and this was regardless of his alignment, was Big Dave.

I think in order to even come close to being a guy that the audience will want to see get his ass kicked, you've got to be willing to embarrass yourself on camera (something the likes of Flair, JBL, Punk, Jericho, William Regal, and Batista all did well at various times)

[saintpat]

Well, this is a message board for Smarks, so the reaction isn't the same as you get at live shows (and I assume in a lot of home that buy PPVs).

I watch most of the PPVs at a friend's house who is a Smark, but a lot of casual fans who are Marks usually attend. I know people who hate Miz and Punk and Nexus/Barrett, but they seem lukewarm about Sheamus and don't care much about him either way (although they want to see Triple H or Orton or Cena win against him).

I'm guessing Marks make up 75 percent or more -- hell, maybe 90 percent -- of the fan base. That's who's paying the bills, and even though they know it's not real they want to see the faces win and the heels lose.

Personally, I love to see Triple H get his ass kicked (even though I know it really never happens unless it's 2-on-1 like Legacy or because he's attacked beforehand and injured like with Sheamus). I'd rather see him gone, but I know that's not going to happen so I'd settle for a few beat-downs a year.

[Deleted]

Laycool except I never want to see them again. Not even if they become jobbers for the next year and a half. Just flat out fired. Well maybe just Layla in a singles run.

[Alex Shelley]

Exactly, Batista in his final few months made it so that when he lost, it was entertaining as hell. Why would I want to see Batista win, when Batista losing would result in a f***ing hilarious meltdown?

[smoot]

This is just blue-skying on my part, but I think some people grow angry when this bit of business is ignored as a storytelling tool- the heel loses, but nothing happens. There's no comeuppance, just "it was a fluke", or (in the case of the not-at-all-universally-beloved LayCool) ten seconds of whining to the referee and then forgetting about the loss entirely.

It's not so much 'marking out' as its part of the genre. The bad guy loses and both the face and heel move on to someone else (unless it's mid-feud, in which case we just set up for the next match).

[cabbageboy]

The thing is this however: There's no desire to see guys get beat because it seems like most of these guys already get beat. Cena already beat Barrett at Summerslam in the tag match, so I'm not waiting with baited breath for Barrett to go down.

Shawn Michaels in late 1997/early 1998 is the epitome of a heel that I would gladly pay good money to see get what was coming to him. The guy screwed Bulldog in England, screwed Taker at HIAC (with Kane's help), screwed Bret in Montreal (Vince's help), and then screwed Taker again at the Rumble (again, Kane). By the time WM arrived I was ready for Austin to kill him dead, and I didn't care much for Austin.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

There are guys I wanna see get beaten, Rey Mysterio for example but it's usually guys who WWE want me to get behind.

I just cheer for whoever my favourites are, regardless of whether they're face or heel and my favourite wrestlers are usually whoever entertains me more.

Like Punk, he's a heel but he entertains me so I want him to win. Even though he is kayfabe an unlikeable slime-ball, I still get entertained by Punk and so cheer for him.

Same could be said for Barrett, Sheamus, Ryder etc.

[Andrew is Good]

A few things are wrong with trying to figure it out. Firstly, no one here, or very few people here, are going to see it in that way for the simple fact that we know too much about wrestling, and follow it too much to watch it as casual fans.

You have to look at sports and entertainment for examples of heels we want to see get their comeupance, mostly because I'm sure a lot of people here may not go on message boards for specific tv shows, maybe for some sports. But, take Brock Lesnar. People wanted him to lose, and I hear this all from facebook statuses, people in my class, etc. People wanted Lesnar, he I guess was the defacto heel, to lose. People were happy Lesnar lost, not that the other guy won.

When watching a tv show, or reality show, you see this heel, and something bothers you about them that you want something bad to happen to them in return. With wrestling, for us, it's different because we not only know the fix is in, but we get so much information about backstage happenings and know so much about it, that's it's hard.

So, to be honest, most people here will be wrong, haha. Myself included, like, unless they go to what a casual viewer might hate. Take CM Punk. I personally think he's awesome. But, he's made people cry, had things thrown at him, was slapped by a fan while walking to the ring. Taking away from personal bias towards him, I would say that there is a portion of the audience that might want him to lose. Jericho was another example, man, he got some ridiculous heat. Wade Barrett's starting to get there, which is good. But, if I went on my own emotion, I'd be wrong, because I'm looking at wrestling differently then other people.

Drew McIntyre was brought up, like, I don't like him and I don't want to see him. Well, that's an emotional response due to a personal preference, whether it is for or against him. To a casual fan though, a person who doesn't follow wrestling as hardcore as people on the boards here do, how does that person respond to Drew McIntyre? How much heat does he have in comparison with other heels.

For me, I'm more for certain babyfaces, or people I like. Christian is a good example for me, I'm a huge fan of Christian. Daniel Bryan too. I like Punk too, and it was brought up about Punk's following, one thing about Punk is he's not fake. You can't rub the tattoos off, he's who he says he is, he's sarcastic and some people like that about him, he has a different appeal to him.