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Post by nerdinitupagain on Oct 10, 2010 22:51:41 GMT -5
Think about it since coming to TNA Bischoff & Hogan have undermined damn near every decision Dixie has made. Nash and Sting knew it, but she was conned by their aura. Now if Hogan & Bischoff is going to take over who do you use. Abyss-He's easy to manipulate look at his past. Jeff Jarrett-He hates Dixie. Hogan says he's Dixie's partner thus exing Jarrett out. Jarrett knows the company and would love to screw over the woman who took his company from him. then their's Hardy. Unless he turned heel he would never be champ. Anderson's become almost as popular as him. RVD is over and Angle's loved. So turning heel gets him the title. Now he has the company behind him and the power. Doesn't explain why Bischoff hazed the heck out of Jarrett or why Hardy feuded with Abyss or why anyone should give a ding dong diddly doo. Ah who am I kidding? Looking for logic in this promotion... oh vey. Deception. This is actually a fairly common literary theme. People pretending to be enemies or pretending to be friends with someone to con them out of something.
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by comahan on Oct 10, 2010 22:52:07 GMT -5
Here's a good question though...and I appreciate those trying to explain the storyline. If a lot of us (the internet dorks) have trouble following it, how hard is it for the average fan to follow it? Aren't THEY the ones who are the majority? Turning one of their biggest merchandise sellers into a heel not only doesn't make sense, but hurts sales. I see it as being the same as a TV show who, instead of running 'individual storyline episodes' every week, they do an overarching plot over 1 or more seasons. There are positives and negatives to that way of doing things. Merch sale wise, is that really true? Nexus has been selling really well for WWE, nWo merch outsold everything but Austin in the 90's, hell even MEM was on top of the TNA sales list for a good long while. Top heel stables have that effect for some reason.
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Dave at the Movies
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Oct 10, 2010 22:52:11 GMT -5
Joe being kidnapped by THEY and claiming THEY sent him? I would explain it like this. Say Samoa Joe was the original one who was suppose to be in Abyss' spot prophesying about THEY. Then say he had second thoughts so they went with Abyss instead. Say Joe was suppose to be apart of THEY and Jeff Jarrett screwed him in the end and they didn't want him because he wouldn't go threw with doing the Abyss role.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 22:54:39 GMT -5
Joe being kidnapped by THEY and claiming THEY sent him? I would explain it like this. Say Samoa Joe was the original one who was suppose to be in Abyss' spot prophesying about THEY. Then say he had second thoughts so they went with Abyss instead. Say Joe was suppose to be apart of THEY and Jeff Jarrett screwed him in the end and they didn't want him because he wouldn't go threw with doing the Abyss role. You're really reaching their man - they've given nothing to make us think that. Maybe on Thursday they'll go more into it.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Oct 10, 2010 22:57:57 GMT -5
Here's a good question though...and I appreciate those trying to explain the storyline. If a lot of us (the internet dorks) have trouble following it, how hard is it for the average fan to follow it? Aren't THEY the ones who are the majority? Turning one of their biggest merchandise sellers into a heel not only doesn't make sense, but hurts sales. it's tough to explain, but it can be made to work with one promo. As much as I loved the initial few weeks of Nexus, we never found out what their bigger picture was. Course I also think a lot of people are already jaded against TNA and aren't willing to give anything a shot. Mind you TNA has proven they don't really deserve a chance because of how many chances they screwed up, but it can work. Especially since now Jeff Hardy has built in feuds with Angle (screwed over), Anderson (screwed over and betrayed by a friend), RVD (betrayed by best friend, and finds out his brst friend is behind the Abyss attack), Sting (teamed with the backstabbers Sting is trying to get rid of) and Pope (Pope actually has a feud with Jarrett out of this too since Double J kept him out of the BFG main event).
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Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Oct 10, 2010 22:58:01 GMT -5
I would explain it like this. Say Samoa Joe was the original one who was suppose to be in Abyss' spot prophesying about THEY. Then say he had second thoughts so they went with Abyss instead. Say Joe was suppose to be apart of THEY and Jeff Jarrett screwed him in the end and they didn't want him because he wouldn't go threw with doing the Abyss role. You're really reaching their man - they've given nothing to make us think that. Maybe on Thursday they'll go more into it. I have a feeling that they will have Joe have known all along what was going on but then he gets screwed like I said. This will make him the tweener the same way Sting was in WCW. I figured it'd either be him or Jeff Hardy in this role and obviously it won't be Jeff Hardy. lol ;D
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Post by Kash Flagg on Oct 10, 2010 22:58:02 GMT -5
Here's a good question though...and I appreciate those trying to explain the storyline. If a lot of us (the internet dorks) have trouble following it, how hard is it for the average fan to follow it? Aren't THEY the ones who are the majority? Turning one of their biggest merchandise sellers into a heel not only doesn't make sense, but hurts sales. I see it as being the same as a TV show who, instead of running 'individual storyline episodes' every week, they do an overarching plot over 1 or more seasons. There are positives and negatives to that way of doing things. Merch sale wise, is that really true? Nexus has been selling really well for WWE, nWo merch outsold everything but Austin in the 90's, hell even MEM was on top of the TNA sales list for a good long while. Top heel stables have that effect for some reason. That's a really good way of putting it actually. But there's still a real need to give us consistent good guy s and bad guys to root for, because it makes the actual turn mean a whole lot more for the audience. I mean Jarrett turned heel and no one gave a shit really. Hardy's turn got a reaction but Hogan and Bischoff's really didn't. It was because people were invested in Hardy as a good guy, whereas people really didn't trust Hogan/Bischoff (even though Hogan got cheers), and noone really cared about Jarrett.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 23:02:57 GMT -5
Here's a good question though...and I appreciate those trying to explain the storyline. If a lot of us (the internet dorks) have trouble following it, how hard is it for the average fan to follow it? Aren't THEY the ones who are the majority? Turning one of their biggest merchandise sellers into a heel not only doesn't make sense, but hurts sales. I see it as being the same as a TV show who, instead of running 'individual storyline episodes' every week, they do an overarching plot over 1 or more seasons. There are positives and negatives to that way of doing things. Merch sale wise, is that really true? Nexus has been selling really well for WWE, nWo merch outsold everything but Austin in the 90's, hell even MEM was on top of the TNA sales list for a good long while. Top heel stables have that effect for some reason. Not to split hairs - but I heard the NEXUS merch was selling as well as Vince thought it would by a long shot. That and the nwo and austin are really a different era too so, its hard to compare. The MEM was booked so damn strong! it was hard not to root for them though.
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Post by joeiscool on Oct 10, 2010 23:03:00 GMT -5
Think about it since coming to TNA Bischoff & Hogan have undermined damn near every decision Dixie has made. Nash and Sting knew it, but she was conned by their aura. Now if Hogan & Bischoff is going to take over who do you use. Abyss-He's easy to manipulate look at his past. Jeff Jarrett-He hates Dixie. Hogan says he's Dixie's partner thus exing Jarrett out. Jarrett knows the company and would love to screw over the woman who took his company from him. then their's Hardy. Unless he turned heel he would never be champ. Anderson's become almost as popular as him. RVD is over and Angle's loved. So turning heel gets him the title. Now he has the company behind him and the power. Doesn't explain why Bischoff hazed the heck out of Jarrett or why Hardy feuded with Abyss or why anyone should give a ding dong diddly doo. Ah who am I kidding? Looking for logic in this promotion... oh vey. Well JJ could be explained as Jeff was against it and then saw the light. Hardy is a little harder to explain.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 23:03:55 GMT -5
Doesn't explain why Bischoff hazed the heck out of Jarrett or why Hardy feuded with Abyss or why anyone should give a ding dong diddly doo. Ah who am I kidding? Looking for logic in this promotion... oh vey. Well JJ could be explained as Jeff was against it and then saw the light. Hardy is a little harder to explain. JJ could also be explained by sloppy writing or the fact that Jarrett was tired of not being in the spotlight again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 23:04:45 GMT -5
Doesn't explain why Bischoff hazed the heck out of Jarrett or why Hardy feuded with Abyss or why anyone should give a ding dong diddly doo. Ah who am I kidding? Looking for logic in this promotion... oh vey. Deception. This is actually a fairly common literary theme. People pretending to be enemies or pretending to be friends with someone to con them out of something. So what did Bischoff pretending to haze Jarrett accomplish?
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Oct 10, 2010 23:07:14 GMT -5
Yeah it makes sense when you look at the timeline. January HOGAN's debut and Hardy's return. February-Abyss tries to win belt but can't pull it off. March-Abyss fails but dominates Flair/AJ April-Hardy/Abyss/Jarrett/RVD joins HOGAN's team for Lockdown and RVD slips past Hardy to take the spot light and become champ. May-RVD is champion at the Sacrifice PPV and Hardy begins a shakey relationship with Anderson. June-Fans wait for Anderson to turn on Hardy but he never does, RVD keeps the man that Hogan/Bischoff have issues with(Sting) from winning the belt). July-RVD squeaks by with his belt in a 4way also featuring Hardy/Abyss/Anderson meaning THEY had 2 men trying to steal the belt. August-Abyss turns on Hogan and takes out RVD, which finally results in him losing the belt. Abyss never gets punished for attacking RVD. September-Hardy advances in the tournament claiming he's doing it for RVD when he's actually doing it for himself. October-Hogan and Bischoff endorse Angle and Anderson for champ showing the DECEPTION that Sting has been talking about for months. Finally Hogan/Bischoff show their true colors and help Hardy win the belt after they've had Dixie sign papers to fire Abyss that will turn out to be control of TNA. Even if that sort of makes sense (and requires us to ignore the fact that it was Hogan, and not Dixie, who gave RVD a title shot in the first place when he could have just given it to Jeff and denied RVD an opportunity all those months ago), that doesn't excuse the fact that they hyped the hell out of this thing and disappointed everybody. If you're going to hype something this much, you had damn well better deliver. "They" should have been somebody huge, or at least interesting. Russo or whoever is booking this steaming pile of horse **** could have made the ECW guys "they". Or he could have made Flair and Fourtune "they". That would still be slightly anticlimactic, but you can't deny that both groups made a decent splash when they debuted and generated a lot of buzz. "They" could have made their debut at an earlier PPV if it were either of those two factions. Or how about this: Paul Heyman and several other guys? That would have also been a big deal, and I doubt anybody would have been disappointed. But instead, we get TNA promising its fans that somebody new will arrive on TEN...TEN...TEN! And who do we get? Hogan, Bischoff, heel Jeff Hardy, heel Jarrett, and Abyss. Three guys who have been there for almost a year, and two guys who have been there for a lot longer. That's INCREDIBLY anticlimactic and makes me very glad that I didn't pay money for this. They were trying to get us excited, trying to make us believe that something really huge was going to happen, and instead it was just another day in TNA. Same old crap. Same old heel and/or face turns out of nowhere. That's not huge. That's tiny. I expected Bischoff and Hogan would be revealed as con men at some point, but I didn't expect them to be "they". Because I was sure that creative had more sense than that.
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by comahan on Oct 10, 2010 23:08:45 GMT -5
I see it as being the same as a TV show who, instead of running 'individual storyline episodes' every week, they do an overarching plot over 1 or more seasons. There are positives and negatives to that way of doing things. Merch sale wise, is that really true? Nexus has been selling really well for WWE, nWo merch outsold everything but Austin in the 90's, hell even MEM was on top of the TNA sales list for a good long while. Top heel stables have that effect for some reason. That's a really good way of putting it actually. But there's still a real need to give us consistent good guy s and bad guys to root for, because it makes the actual turn mean a whole lot more for the audience. I mean Jarrett turned heel and no one gave a s*** really. Hardy's turn got a reaction but Hogan and Bischoff's really didn't. It was because people were invested in Hardy as a good guy, whereas people really didn't trust Hogan/Bischoff (even though Hogan got cheers), and noone really cared about Jarrett. Im not really sure that it wasnt built to be that way though. Look at most peoples predictions on who THEY would be. Most people pegged Abyss/Jarrett/Bisch as no doubters, with Hogan being there too if he wasnt 'injured'. And why did people think that? Because the build has been there to give people reason to think that. All three have been shady since the start, always on the edge of turning, because thats how theyve been built. Even Sting, the ultimate babyface, has been saying for almost a YEAR now that Hogan/Bisch/Jarrett were no good. Most people knew it was coming, and it was on purpose imo. The shock and emotion response from fans will come from Hardy, whereas the rest, the ones that it was built toward, will be his supporting players, building a sort of "Why would HE side with those deceiving scumbags!" sort of reaction. Just my view on it, anyway.
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,899
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Post by comahan on Oct 10, 2010 23:10:09 GMT -5
I see it as being the same as a TV show who, instead of running 'individual storyline episodes' every week, they do an overarching plot over 1 or more seasons. There are positives and negatives to that way of doing things. Merch sale wise, is that really true? Nexus has been selling really well for WWE, nWo merch outsold everything but Austin in the 90's, hell even MEM was on top of the TNA sales list for a good long while. Top heel stables have that effect for some reason. Not to split hairs - but I heard the NEXUS merch was selling as well as Vince thought it would by a long shot. That and the nwo and austin are really a different era too so, its hard to compare. The MEM was booked so damn strong! it was hard not to root for them though. Yea I read that too, which confused me since theres a weekly article on 411 that tracks merchandise sells, and Nexus has consistently been near the top of the list since their shirt debuted. If they werent #1, they were only behind Cena or Orton.
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vivix
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Post by vivix on Oct 10, 2010 23:13:25 GMT -5
That's a really good way of putting it actually. But there's still a real need to give us consistent good guy s and bad guys to root for, because it makes the actual turn mean a whole lot more for the audience. I mean Jarrett turned heel and no one gave a s*** really. Hardy's turn got a reaction but Hogan and Bischoff's really didn't. It was because people were invested in Hardy as a good guy, whereas people really didn't trust Hogan/Bischoff (even though Hogan got cheers), and noone really cared about Jarrett. Im not really sure that it wasnt built to be that way though. Look at most peoples predictions on who THEY would be. Most people pegged Abyss/Jarrett/Bisch as no doubters, with Hogan being there too if he wasnt 'injured'. And why did people think that? Because the build has been there to give people reason to think that. All three have been shady since the start, always on the edge of turning, because thats how theyve been built. Even Sting, the ultimate babyface, has been saying for almost a YEAR now that Hogan/Bisch/Jarrett were no good. Most people knew it was coming, and it was on purpose imo. The shock and emotion response from fans will come from Hardy, whereas the rest, the ones that it was built toward, will be his supporting players, building a sort of "Why would HE side with those deceiving scumbags!" sort of reaction. Just my view on it, anyway. I think that's the casual fan response, I think the typical net fan will look at the history to support everything.
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Post by Lenny: Smooth like Keith Stone on Oct 10, 2010 23:14:20 GMT -5
For every mystery that was answered tonight, there is a plothole to match.
For example Sting's "deception" stuff makes sense... he claimed that Hogan and Bischoff were deceiving Dixie and the TNA fans, and he was trying to prevent that.
However a plothole is now exposed -- on RVD debut match where he wrestled Sting in a 10 second match, Sting beat the crap out of RVD for 5 minutes straight. Why, if RVD is one of the good guys?
And as much as I love to think that Joe's kidnapping is some sort of plot point, I really really think that TNA has erased that whole thing. It never happened.
Anyway like Kash posted on the last page, I think TNA really does have great wrestling -- but bad storytelling. I thought Angle - Hardy - Anderson was a really fun match, until Bischoff and Hogan came out, and started playing musical swerves.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Oct 10, 2010 23:14:43 GMT -5
I honestly think the casual fan would be confused by all this. Just my opinion though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 23:14:53 GMT -5
Im not really sure that it wasnt built to be that way though. Look at most peoples predictions on who THEY would be. Most people pegged Abyss/Jarrett/Bisch as no doubters, with Hogan being there too if he wasnt 'injured'. And why did people think that? Because the build has been there to give people reason to think that. All three have been shady since the start, always on the edge of turning, because thats how theyve been built. Even Sting, the ultimate babyface, has been saying for almost a YEAR now that Hogan/Bisch/Jarrett were no good. Most people knew it was coming, and it was on purpose imo. The shock and emotion response from fans will come from Hardy, whereas the rest, the ones that it was built toward, will be his supporting players, building a sort of "Why would HE side with those deceiving scumbags!" sort of reaction. Just my view on it, anyway. I think that's the casual fan response, I think the typical net fan will look at the history to support everything. I think the casual fan's response was probably something like this: "Ah, nWo again?"
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by comahan on Oct 10, 2010 23:16:09 GMT -5
For every mystery that was answered tonight, there is a plothole to match. For example Sting's "deception" stuff makes sense... he claimed that Hogan and Bischoff were deceiving Dixie and the TNA fans, and he was trying to prevent that. However a plothole is now exposed -- on RVD debut match where he wrestled Sting in a 10 second match, Sting beat the crap out of RVD for 5 minutes straight. Why, if RVD is one of the good guys? And as much as I love to think that Joe's kidnapping is some sort of plot point, I really really think that TNA has erased that whole thing. It never happened. Anyway like Kash posted on the last page, I think TNA really does have great wrestling -- but bad storytelling. I thought Angle - Hardy - Anderson was a really fun match, until Bischoff and Hogan came out, and started playing musical swerves. I think the Sting attack on RVD can easily be explained away as "Hey, Hulk brought you in, I thought you were with them"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 23:18:30 GMT -5
For every mystery that was answered tonight, there is a plothole to match. For example Sting's "deception" stuff makes sense... he claimed that Hogan and Bischoff were deceiving Dixie and the TNA fans, and he was trying to prevent that. However a plothole is now exposed -- on RVD debut match where he wrestled Sting in a 10 second match, Sting beat the crap out of RVD for 5 minutes straight. Why, if RVD is one of the good guys? And as much as I love to think that Joe's kidnapping is some sort of plot point, I really really think that TNA has erased that whole thing. It never happened. Anyway like Kash posted on the last page, I think TNA really does have great wrestling -- but bad storytelling. I thought Angle - Hardy - Anderson was a really fun match, until Bischoff and Hogan came out, and started playing musical swerves. I think the Sting attack on RVD can easily be explained away as "Hey, Hulk brought you in, I thought you were with them" I think anything can be "explained away" if you try hard enough, but the fact that SO MUCH of the story has to be justified and explained away really speaks volumes about the shoddiness of the entire storyline.
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