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Post by molson5 on Feb 2, 2012 14:38:20 GMT -5
Just thinking wildly on this while at lunch, it's not the first great match in WWE history but, it could easily be the first available to the masses. Before this how many of the previous matches were available via PPV or VHS? Most you either had to be in the arena or read about it via PWI. Even then how many of those were even available for a mass audience to see until recently? Not saying I agree, just that I could see why someone would think that. Ya, I think that's a big part of it. You would have never seen any of those 70s and 80s matches unless you lived in an area that had NESN, or PRISM, or the MSG Network, or unless you went to a live event. For the people who were able to check out Mania 3 via PPV or closed circuit TV, they must have been blown away, as were the many more that rented that video afterwards.
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beamanhogan
Team Rocket
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Posts: 867
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Post by beamanhogan on Feb 2, 2012 15:00:54 GMT -5
Just thinking wildly on this while at lunch, it's not the first great match in WWE history but, it could easily be the first available to the masses. Before this how many of the previous matches were available via PPV or VHS? Most you either had to be in the arena or read about it via PWI. Even then how many of those were even available for a mass audience to see until recently? Not saying I agree, just that I could see why someone would think that. Ya, I think that's a big part of it. You would have never seen any of those 70s and 80s matches unless you lived in an area that had NESN, or PRISM, or the MSG Network, or unless you went to a live event. For the people who were able to check out Mania 3 via PPV or closed circuit TV, they must have been blown away, as were the many more that rented that video afterwards. I would like to introduce my statement of British Bulldogs vs Dream Team at WM2 as my argument against this theory.
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Post by wildojinx on Feb 2, 2012 18:32:38 GMT -5
Just thinking wildly on this while at lunch, it's not the first great match in WWE history but, it could easily be the first available to the masses. Before this how many of the previous matches were available via PPV or VHS? Most you either had to be in the arena or read about it via PWI. Even then how many of those were even available for a mass audience to see until recently? Not saying I agree, just that I could see why someone would think that. Ya, I think that's a big part of it. You would have never seen any of those 70s and 80s matches unless you lived in an area that had NESN, or PRISM, or the MSG Network, or unless you went to a live event. For the people who were able to check out Mania 3 via PPV or closed circuit TV, they must have been blown away, as were the many more that rented that video afterwards. Actually, Coliseum video wuld often put many of the great matches on their compilation videos. Granted, many of them would be clipped, but it would still be a way to check out wrestling from the pre-hulkamania era.
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Post by sludgehammer on Feb 3, 2012 2:18:18 GMT -5
Ugh. Wrestling is planned anyways. So f***ing what if Savage planned everything out. Since it's ppe-determined and a goddamn show what's the f***ing difference. Planning the majority of a match move-for-move isn't working a match. I'm sorry that Macho Man Randy Savage, one of the best wrestlers of all time, doesn't live up to your criteria for "working a match" I'll remember that when he goes into the Hall of Fame
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Post by gonzo16 on Feb 3, 2012 2:47:22 GMT -5
Absolutely not.
The first REALLY good match I saw was Ricky Steamboat vs. Davey Boy Smith on The Wrestling Classic on VHS. It was the first time I ever saw face vs. face also, and it's a really good match until Davey Boy legit tears his groin and the match ends abruptly.
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Post by Frito Pendejo on Feb 3, 2012 10:57:07 GMT -5
Planning the majority of a match move-for-move isn't working a match. I'm sorry that Macho Man Randy Savage, one of the best wrestlers of all time, doesn't live up to your criteria for "working a match" My criteria? That's how the business works. If Savage had to lay out his entire match in advance, that wasn't "working".
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2012 11:43:08 GMT -5
I'm sorry that Macho Man Randy Savage, one of the best wrestlers of all time, doesn't live up to your criteria for "working a match" My criteria? That's how the business works. If Savage had to lay out his entire match in advance, that wasn't "working". But they were working us. HI-YOOOOO!
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andrewgilkison
Bubba Ho-Tep
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Post by andrewgilkison on Feb 4, 2012 2:20:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry that Macho Man Randy Savage, one of the best wrestlers of all time, doesn't live up to your criteria for "working a match" My criteria? That's how the business works. If Savage had to lay out his entire match in advance, that wasn't "working". It must've worked for somebody, given the high praise that match got for years, and the new generations of wrestlers that it inspired.
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Post by Frito Pendejo on Feb 4, 2012 13:35:30 GMT -5
My criteria? That's how the business works. If Savage had to lay out his entire match in advance, that wasn't "working". It must've worked for somebody, given the high praise that match got for years, and the new generations of wrestlers that it inspired. ...and that's why the overall quality of wrestling has gone down in the last 25 years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2012 13:59:39 GMT -5
I'm sorry that Macho Man Randy Savage, one of the best wrestlers of all time, doesn't live up to your criteria for "working a match" My criteria? That's how the business works. If Savage had to lay out his entire match in advance, that wasn't "working". No offense dude, but Macho is one of the best to ever do it. As far as I've heard he liked to plan things out beforehand. I'm not going to criticize the work of one of greatest ever.
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Post by RareTradU on Feb 4, 2012 14:33:00 GMT -5
Lots of wrestlers like to plan out every move in every match (i.e. DDP, high flyers, and just about every match on WWE in the last 5 years or so) but even Steamboat has said that he doesn't consider the WM3 match with Savage to be one of his best because of the lack of improv in the match. Still doesn't make Savage 'less of a wrestler' but I can see the point.
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Post by Frito Pendejo on Feb 4, 2012 14:59:21 GMT -5
My criteria? That's how the business works. If Savage had to lay out his entire match in advance, that wasn't "working". No offense dude, but Macho is one of the best to ever do it. As far as I've heard he liked to plan things out beforehand. I'm not going to criticize the work of one of greatest ever. The problem is that once you lay out an entire match, you run the great risk of it not connecting with the crowd at all. Working not only means to be able to improvise, it also means being able to work the crowd into caring about the match itself.
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Post by Big Daddy Bad Booking on Feb 4, 2012 15:05:26 GMT -5
The WWF had classics before it. Seriously, the Backlund/Snuka match from 1982 in a cage is an underrated study in in-ring psychology.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 4, 2012 15:29:06 GMT -5
Ugh. Wrestling is planned anyways. So f***ing what if Savage planned everything out. Since it's ppe-determined and a goddamn show what's the f***ing difference. Planning the majority of a match move-for-move isn't working a match. Working a match simply means having a match where you pretend to hit each other, the crowd buys into it, but you did not actually cause each other grievous harm. That's why when something isn't a shoot, it's a work. It's razzmatazz.
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Post by machomuta on Feb 4, 2012 15:46:35 GMT -5
The problem is that once you lay out an entire match, you run the great risk of it not connecting with the crowd at all. . People were always into his big matches. A good match is a good match. No fans cares if the match is layed out or not.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Feb 4, 2012 16:00:21 GMT -5
That is the dumbest statement ever. Well, maybe not ever but pretty damned stupid nonetheless. There were hundreds of pretty damned good matches prior to that match. Besides, it was a great match but it is not the all-time best it is made out to be.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Feb 4, 2012 19:12:20 GMT -5
Ask any so called casual fan if they in anyway noticed that the match was planned move for move. Most won't know and rest won't care. It was a great match with two of the all time best. While I don't think it was the first great match it was still excellent. Also I really disagree with the statement that wrestling has gone down hill in the last 25 years. Sorry really bugs me.
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Post by Frito Pendejo on Feb 4, 2012 21:19:36 GMT -5
Planning the majority of a match move-for-move isn't working a match. Working a match simply means having a match where you pretend to hit each other, the crowd buys into it, but you did not actually cause each other grievous harm. Take it from someone who has been in the business for more than a decade - "working" means a lot more than pretending to hit someone.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Feb 5, 2012 0:29:02 GMT -5
And so did I. I didn't start watching until the early 90's and I find most WWF stuff pre-WM 3 to be unwatchable. The only WWF matches I've liked from the early 80's involved the Hart Foundation, British Bulldogs, Savage and Steamboat. I just don't like slow wrestling that relies on drama over action. Those type of matches are better when they're first seen in the proper context, not 20 years later. Hmm, uh, I wouldn't say that. I mean, that's your opinion and that's fine. But don't make such a broad comment as they're only good when they were seen in the proper context. If you don't like those type of matches, that's fine and understandable. But I would take one of those matches with drama, a story and methodical wrestling over alot of this flippy bulls*** that's been popular the past ten years or so. I didn't say that's the only time they're good, it just makes them better. What I mean is that it's hard for me to be interested in that type of match because the drama was all about who's going to win. If I already know how it turned out, that drama is completely ruined for me, thus making all the methodical drama stuff seem like a waste of time. And it's not like slow dramatic wrestling and flippe bullshit are the only two types of wrestling out there. Austin and Rock didn't do flips, Kobashi and Misawa didn't bore me. I can still watch those matches and enjoy them because they had the right mix of drama and action. I simply feel that most older WWF stuff (and a lot of older wrestling in general) was really lacking in action. BUT, that's probably because I've been spoiled by the much more fast paced matches of the late 90's and 2000's. Thus, the prope context comment. Regardless, there's no reason to defend liking that stuff. I'm glad you do, it's just not my cup of tea. I'm not ignorant enough to think my opinion is somehow more important than anyone else's...except for Hogan fans. f*** those guys.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Feb 5, 2012 0:35:27 GMT -5
Working a match simply means having a match where you pretend to hit each other, the crowd buys into it, but you did not actually cause each other grievous harm. Take it from someone who has been in the business for more than a decade - "working" means a lot more than pretending to hit someone. Dude seriously...you are making a ridiculous argument. That is EXACTLY what working is. It takes more than that to be a good worker, but working is simply pretending. Ic you weren't pretending you'd be shooting. By the way, it's a bit hard for me to take you seriously as a guy that's been in the business for 10 years, yet you think Macho Man couldn't work. I can only assume that you are in that minority that can actually do better then.
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