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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 0:38:36 GMT -5
No offense dude, but Macho is one of the best to ever do it. As far as I've heard he liked to plan things out beforehand. I'm not going to criticize the work of one of greatest ever. The problem is that once you lay out an entire match, you run the great risk of it not connecting with the crowd at all. Working not only means to be able to improvise, it also means being able to work the crowd into caring about the match itself. I understand the concept of working a match, but you're coming across as if you're somehow better than Macho because he planned this particular match out in advance. It was a good match, was it as great as some make it out to be? In my opinion, no, but to use semantics and say that two of the best ever didn't "work" their match that night is asinine.
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Post by preferable on Feb 5, 2012 8:40:15 GMT -5
Savage vs Steamboat was a great match.
But as a rule, never trust those who think they have the authority to define a 'great match'. Wrestling by numbers.
If you feel it - it's a great match.The idea it can be determined coldly by someone who says 'It has X, Y and Z, therefore - great match' - makes my blood chilled.
It was probably the 'box-tickers' version of a great match. Just like a stopped clock, they can be right occasionally.
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Post by Frito Pendejo on Feb 5, 2012 13:39:37 GMT -5
Take it from someone who has been in the business for more than a decade - "working" means a lot more than pretending to hit someone. Dude seriously...you are making a ridiculous argument. That is EXACTLY what working is. No, it's not. It's one small part of what "working" actually is.
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Post by preferable on Feb 5, 2012 14:54:22 GMT -5
I've never been in the industry. Hence why I have health benefits Surely 'working' means, aside from the nominal, whether you're able to 'make work' a match, an angle, a storyline (or at a micro level a move, a spot,.....whatever) Whether you do that by doing 100 moves a minute or kicking someone in the face...if it works, it works. Too much emphasis from some fans has been put on guys who go out there and do stuff regardless as whether it works for the crowd or not. A armbar with people checking their watches or going out to have a look at the concession stand doesn't 'work' even if it is a wrestling move. Many guys, like Savage, learned how to keep 'wrestling' entertaining. Others with less skill, found other ways. As long as the fans are entertained that all that matters. Far too much leeway given to people who go out there and wrestle in near silence for 20 minutes then get praised as 'great workers', IMO.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Feb 5, 2012 20:22:43 GMT -5
Dude seriously...you are making a ridiculous argument. That is EXACTLY what working is. No, it's not. It's one small part of what "working" actually is. So then explain to me what the rest of it is. Because I'm pretty sure that every wrestler in the history of pro wrestling was a worker, but that not every wrestler went about it the same way. That's like me saying that Tupac wasn't actually rapping because he took the time to write his lyrics instead of just coming up with stuff off the top of his head. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no way that you can convince me that Randy Savage wasn't a worker just because he liked to plan out his matches in advance. If you want to say that he's a bad worker then fine, but to say he wasn't a worker at all is just ridiculous.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Feb 6, 2012 8:40:08 GMT -5
No, it's not. It's one small part of what "working" actually is. So then explain to me what the rest of it is. Because I'm pretty sure that every wrestler in the history of pro wrestling was a worker, but that not every wrestler went about it the same way. That's like me saying that Tupac wasn't actually rapping because he took the time to write his lyrics instead of just coming up with stuff off the top of his head. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no way that you can convince me that Randy Savage wasn't a worker just because he liked to plan out his matches in advance. If you want to say that he's a bad worker then fine, but to say he wasn't a worker at all is just ridiculous. To use my analogy from earlier. Eric Clapton rarely plays the same guitar solo twice. He was fluent enough with the guitar vocabulary and confident enough to be able to improvise. Jazz and blues musicians are incredibly adept at improvisation. George Harrison, however was groomed on early rock and roll, R & B, rockabilly and country music. All of those musical styles are based on a strict adherence to structure with an emphasis on tight, yet instantly memorable, pre-planned solos. The solo on any live version of "A Hard Day's Night" was the exact solo that he played on the original Beatles recording. While some musicians would find that limiting, the best part about that approach is that a lot of George's (and Paul's and John's) solos litterally become part of the song. "Day Tripper" without that solo is not "Day Tripper" to me Both approaches are perfectly valid. In fact when Clapton was invited to play on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", he deliberately composed his solo in George's style. No one would objectively say that George was a lesser musician simply because he worked differently than Clapton. Randy Savage was certainly not the only guy to pre-plan his matches; wasn't Hogan/Warrior similarly choreographed? To knock him for sticking to a plan is as silly as knocking George Harrison for composing guitar solos.
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Post by Frito Pendejo on Feb 6, 2012 15:32:50 GMT -5
Too much emphasis from some fans has been put on guys who go out there and do stuff regardless as whether it works for the crowd or not. A armbar with people checking their watches or going out to have a look at the concession stand doesn't 'work' even if it is a wrestling move. Bingo.
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Post by happhazzard on Feb 6, 2012 15:46:05 GMT -5
Santana/JYD vs the Funks vs WM2 was a great match that loads of people would have seen.
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andrewgilkison
Bubba Ho-Tep
Sound of 300lbs of crap hitting the fan?
Posts: 558
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Post by andrewgilkison on Feb 8, 2012 0:25:39 GMT -5
It must've worked for somebody, given the high praise that match got for years, and the new generations of wrestlers that it inspired. ...and that's why the overall quality of wrestling has gone down in the last 25 years. I thought the lack of territories and places for wrestlers to work and perfect their graft was the blame for that. But no, it was wrestlers being inspired by what is largely considered a classic match. Silly me.
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sdoyle7798
Dennis Stamp
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Feb 8, 2012 0:56:19 GMT -5
On the Savage argument, I'm sure he planned things out to the letter, but I'm sure he could improvise if needed.
In his entire career, there had to be a point where improving was needed (botch, injury to one of the combatants, time constraints/fill, etc). Things go wrong sometimes, and the greats know how to work around that.
So I am sure he could improvise if he had to, he just didn't like to call a match on the fly.
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beamanhogan
Team Rocket
RIP - Macho for Hall of Fame
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Post by beamanhogan on Feb 8, 2012 10:31:00 GMT -5
Who cares if they planned it ahead of time? If anything, I am more impressed by that. It means their knowledge of how the crowd would react to each move was off the charts. They still needed to have timing of when to do each move, how long to stay down, etc.
I always thought the main component of "working" a match was working the crowd to have emotion with everything going on. They did that in spades. If someone has the ability and knowledge to plan a match out ahead of time that is that incredible and that the crowd eats, shouldn't we be applauding them instead of criticizing?
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Post by baronmordo on Feb 8, 2012 13:22:56 GMT -5
This is a stupid argument. Frito is wrong-just because he's supposedly in the business doesn't neccessarily mean he knows anything. And considering that it is largely regarded as one of the best matches ever, I say it "worked" just fine. And the audience DID react to Savage-every goddamn match he ever had, even though he did plan them out. So his argument is just plain wrong.
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