Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Cronant on Oct 6, 2011 8:17:09 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2011 8:22:04 GMT -5
His point on ADR is odd, he's not mega over, but he is amazing for WWE style matches, he works psychology in so well and makes his spots look brilliant/devestating, his promos need work albeit. It's true that WWE need to make heels that are capable of competing with Cena though and ADR isn't in that position booking wise yet. I'd argue that no one is right now.
Regarding Cena being top dog, that's fine, but he needs to be faded out of the main event at times, both for his own body and to keep the program fresh. He's in a position where having the belt means nothing and where he could have blood feuds with any properly built up heels (ala Mark Henry) when they aren't chasing the title.
Miz stands out as a guy who has taken the bull by the horns to me, he needs polishing in the ring still, but he's worked his arse off and does all the media jobs Cena does and more.
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Post by #RUDO Coco Del Rio on Oct 6, 2011 8:31:07 GMT -5
Sheamus was given everything too fast, too. Hell, even faster. He turned out fine.
But yeah, I totally disagree with his point on Del Rio catching up on the US system. He learned the WWE style faster than most. He didn't even need to stay long in FCW just to get used to things.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Oct 6, 2011 8:31:59 GMT -5
I agree with him on most of that, but I do disagree about Del Rio needing to learn the US system better and such. I don't think he's a big enough name to be world champion right now, but he is definitely talented enough to be world champion. There's a big difference. I think the dude is doing great. He'll only get better too. His ring work is very crisp. He reminds me a lot of Kurt Angle in his first couple of years, before he became a wrestling machine. His promos are definitely his weakest aspect, but that's not to say they're bad.
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Altabane
Unicron
Burying People For Free
Posts: 3,155
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Post by Altabane on Oct 6, 2011 8:35:49 GMT -5
Sheamus was given everything too fast, too. Hell, even faster. He turned out fine. That's a tiny bit rose-tinted, he floundered for a long time after he lost the belt and then lost to Triple H. KOTR was not a positive for him, he managed to win the US Belt and could have had a good feud with Bryan, instead they got bumped off Mania for a Mae Young skit we've seen 8000 times and Snoop Dog making people sing. Sheamus didn't do much of anything until he turned face. On topic: I would have had Del Rio wait a bit more before cashing in, maybe around now-ish. I think he's ready for a chance, but Austin's not wrong. The WWE forced every sort of accolade they could think of onto ADR trying to get him over, and he's still not the top heel they want him to be.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Oct 6, 2011 8:39:02 GMT -5
I think Del Rio is great in the ring and everything, he's adapted pretty well I'd say. But booking wise, why should I think he's such a threat to Cena? Not like JBL who had a s*** ton of buildup, but an actual threat Del Rio isn't. Hell did anybody really buy Sheamus as a threat even when he had the title? He was still shown to be a cowardly guy who runs away from anybody that actually matters (Cena, Nexus), or get beaten senseless by someone who matters (Orton time and time again).
Oh yeah, a pin is one thing, but the top face is not gonna tap to an armbar. He's no Angle or Benoit either, so yeah.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Oct 6, 2011 8:41:33 GMT -5
ADR would have been a badass IC champ, with like a 10+ month reign starting at the end of last year.
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Post by #RUDO Coco Del Rio on Oct 6, 2011 8:57:07 GMT -5
Sheamus was given everything too fast, too. Hell, even faster. He turned out fine. That's a tiny bit rose-tinted, he floundered for a long time after he lost the belt and then lost to Triple H. KOTR was not a positive for him, he managed to win the US Belt and could have had a good feud with Bryan, instead they got bumped off Mania for a Mae Young skit we've seen 8000 times and Snoop Dog making people sing. Sheamus didn't do much of anything until he turned face. On topic: I would have had Del Rio wait a bit more before cashing in, maybe around now-ish. I think he's ready for a chance, but Austin's not wrong. The WWE forced every sort of accolade they could think of onto ADR trying to get him over, and he's still not the top heel they want him to be. Sheamus, Del Rio... they're both victims of the dreaded WWE Yo-Yo push mentality. I just know ADR's career is going to flounder a bit after this Mexico tour. They're obviously just using him as a selling point. Hell, ADR already lost his momentum after WrestleMania, what more when they inevitably push him back down to the upper midcard status. Which is why I'm a bit optimistic because of how Sheamus turned out when he got on SmackDown. He was already getting cheered before he turned face. It just felt natural.
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Post by cabbageboy on Oct 6, 2011 9:37:34 GMT -5
The irony of Austin's statement is that Del Rio was certainly there and ready before WWE booked him like crap heading into WM and then jobbed him to Edge for no logical reason. ADR would be perfect as the top heel on SD, but now Mark Henry has usurped that.
Was Kane over enough to beat Austin in 1998? Maybe. Was The Rock over enough or credible enough for the belt in late 1998 and early 1999? I didn't really think so, at least in terms of credibility. Was HHH over at all when he first won the title in Aug. 1999? Not really.
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Post by fizzeewater on Oct 6, 2011 10:00:37 GMT -5
I don't think Alberto sucks. He is certainly better than average in the ring. His mic work isn't awful I'd say about average.
My problem with ADR is the character itself. It's so one dimensional. He's a rich Mexican aristocrat. Which makes no sense for him to become a wrestler. There are no stakes for him, which means that if he loses than he just goes back to being rich as hell. Big deal he doesn't have the title. I don't buy into the idea of this guy actually giving a crap about being champion. The character is flat.
Besides that he literally is a Mexican version of JBL - a character I didn't like watching in the first place.
The thing that works with good heels is the fans have to believe that their careers as wrestlers mean something to them. Look at Edge's heel turn in which he won his first title. You knew the guy oozed wrestling out of his very pores and he would do anything to become champion. Look at Mark Henry, the guy has been around for fifteen years underachieving until he finally snapped. That's depth to a character. Those are heels that are believable.
ADR is just a rich guy who wants a trophy for his mantle. YAWN
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 6, 2011 11:54:53 GMT -5
He's as ready as can be, he just needs to cut more original promos, that's all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2011 12:01:50 GMT -5
The problem with ADR is that he has no real character behind him. He's a rich Mexican guy who shows off his money a little. That's it.
JBL at least had the whole racist, glad-handing dickhead schtick.
I honestly think ADR would be better as a babyface...his mannerisms and personality suit it better.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 6, 2011 12:05:46 GMT -5
Just get him to stop saying Destiny, and have him go back to being the guy who acts like he's cheerful and grandstanding, while he's really a vicious bastard deep inside.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 6, 2011 12:09:24 GMT -5
The problem with ADR is that he has no real character behind him. He's a rich Mexican guy who shows off his money a little. That's it. JBL at least had the whole racist, glad-handing dickhead schtick. I honestly think ADR would be better as a babyface...his mannerisms and personality suit it better. I actually like that they're showing him as having a bad temper and being abusive towards his announcer under the whole happy rich guy act. That to me is more interesting than his Mexican JBL persona. Hell I think when he blows up he's one of the scarier heels on the roster.
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Post by Magnum Opus on Oct 6, 2011 12:21:51 GMT -5
I don't know, right now I feel like Cena is SO far higher that you can't make a viable heel with out having them beat Cena several times clean ish, which means putting the strap on some one.
Oh they can try, but a side effect of Super Cena is no one but the under 10's think he could lose, until he does, so no one is going to look viable.
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Post by Nerdkiller the threadkiller on Oct 6, 2011 12:35:23 GMT -5
I think the main problem with Del Rio is the fact that he doesn't really flaunt his gimmick around, other than coming out with a different car, every time. But even then, I still think he wouldn't be ready for the roll.
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Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
When Toronto sports teams lose, Alison Brie is sad
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Oct 6, 2011 12:38:53 GMT -5
If we're to follow Austin's logic, then the fact of the matter is that John Cena must always be champion. Why? Austin says that for Cena to chase, it must be after a top heel. Well, the problem is, Cena's booking cuts off every heel at the knees and nobody ever reaches the level that Austin is talking about.
The fact of the matter is, Del Rio IS the top heel on that brand right now, so either you run with him or Cena's the champ forever.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 6, 2011 12:41:02 GMT -5
Once again, the message from Austin is 'stick with the status quo, then wonder why there's no younger talent on the reputation level of those top guys'.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Cronant on Oct 6, 2011 12:41:57 GMT -5
Thats not his logic. More that the big heel should be built BEFORE they get to the top guy, not because they're feuding with him.
Del Rio was losing to Kofi before he cashed in, during that WWE title tournament. Now he's the top heel? Its backwards.
I'll say it again. Cena and Orton are what they should be. The other guys should be built as big before they get to those two. Punk was. Henry was. ADR wasn't, and neither have most of the heels they pushed.
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Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
When Toronto sports teams lose, Alison Brie is sad
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Oct 6, 2011 12:45:47 GMT -5
Thats not his logic. More that the big heel should be built BEFORE they get to the top guy, not because they're feuding with him. Del Rio was losing to Kofi before he cashed in, during that WWE title tournament. Now he's the top heel? Its backwards. I'll say it again. Cena and Orton are what they should be. The other guys should be built as big before they get to those two. Punk was. Henry was. ADR wasn't, and neither have most of the heels they pushed. And there's the problem with 50/50 booking in the midcard. Take Dolph Zigger for example. He's more than ready to be a top guy, but will the average fan take to him as one? Probably not. Why? Look how he's booked. He's not given an ounce of protection. There's no foresight at all. It seems if the writers/bookers never think for a minute "Hey, wait a sec...this guy might be able to main event a PPV a little down the road. Let's not make him look like a chump."
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