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Post by rapidfire187 on Apr 8, 2012 12:37:35 GMT -5
I've heard a lot of fans throw that accusation over the years, and I've also found it interesting. Two of the most notable people I've seen be accused of this are Bret Hart and CM Punk. I think the notion is that they buy into their own hype, and really think of themselves as highly as their fans do. I'm not really sure what Punk has done to earn that accusation, but I'm fairly certain Bret earned it from the Montreal incident (or rather, from telling his side of the story).
So here's one question I have: why exactly is being a mark for yourself a bad thing if you're a wrestler? Guys like Bret and Punk were/are great performers, perhaps them "being a mark for themself" is really just them being in touch with the audience. They don't typically make false claims about themselves or their careers. For instance, Bret seems to have an accurate evaluation of himself (great worker, good look, not so great on the mic). Maybe the reason Bret was so successful is because he was a fan growing up and was always able to see things from the fan's perspective.
Also, what did Punk do to earn that accusation? What constitutes being a mark for yourself? And who are some other guys or gals that you think fit the bill?
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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 8, 2012 12:52:22 GMT -5
With Bret (and I am a huge fan of him) it's more than just the Montreal incident. My opinion is a lot of it has to do with what the wrestling business has meant to his family and how he was trained. But the basic thing was is he got the Hitman name trademarked so he could always have it, and during both his contract negotiations in the 90's he really held out for a lot of perks that guys didn't get at the time.
As for Punk, at least during his indy days he was (for lack of a better word) an ass and was very full of himself. I know he got a lot of crap for pulling out of a CHIKARA show and bragging about it (don't know the basics, but I'm pretty sure he hates the comedy behind CHIKARA)
Buff Bagwell is known as a mark for himself. As is Teddy Hart
I've heard guys who wrestled with Chris Jericho in SMW thought he and Lance were because of how they acted (Jericho talked about it in his book and admitted he was wrong in how he acted).
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Post by rapidfire187 on Apr 8, 2012 12:58:27 GMT -5
Yea, I thought a lot of things Bret said in his book leant credence to the "he's a mark for himself" accusation, but I don't think any of that contractual stuff fits in that category. Not saying it was right or wrong, smart or dumb, but it's business. Like, I don't see people put that tag on Nash or Hogan y'know?
Oh yea, I heard there was some sort of thing with Punk and CHIKARA. I'd love to know the full story. I'm gonna see what I can find.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Apr 8, 2012 13:03:26 GMT -5
Yea, I thought a lot of things Bret said in his book leant credence to the "he's a mark for himself" accusation, but I don't think any of that contractual stuff fits in that category. Not saying it was right or wrong, smart or dumb, but it's business. Like, I don't see people put that tag on Nash or Hogan y'know? Oh yea, I heard there was some sort of thing with Punk and CHIKARA. I'd love to know the full story. I'm gonna see what I can find. Long and the short of it is, Punk main evented the first ever Chikara show with Colt and Hero and Quack, Reckless Youth, and Don Montoya, then apparently pulled out of a subsequent show, and him and Quack have had heat since. Hence, the CP Munk character, and Punk being more than a little passive aggressive about the whole thing.
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Apr 8, 2012 13:06:20 GMT -5
This quote from Punk about the CP Munk character says everything you need to know about him taking himself too seriously:
"I'm split 50/50 on it. Some days I get real pissed about it, because it's disrespectful. I'm sure it's no secret that the dorks that run Chikara and I don't get along, so they're [sic] judgement on trying to "mock" me is a little off. Most other days I just laugh it off because nobody from Chikara will ever be over enough anywhere for anybody else to parody them."
Remember, this was after Punk no showed a bunch of times and he was still just a typical indie slob, not the super duper star ROH would make him out to be quite yet. Chikara also had Colt Cabunny in the same vein yet Colt Cabana didn't get all whiney about it.
And I'm just gonna throw this one thing out there. Being straight edge means you don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, and also YOU DON'T SCREW! This is the one aspect of being straight edge Punk forgets because that would mean his reputation for being a "lady's man" would be null and void. Straight edge is about self control and not giving in to all vices that lead to nowhere. Sex is one of them. So when Punk goes on one of his tirades about not being weak and giving into temptation like the rest of you drunks and junkies my first reaction is "THTPTHPTPTTPTPTTT!!!!"
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Apr 8, 2012 13:16:05 GMT -5
Chikara also had Colt Cabunny in the same vein yet Colt Cabana didn't get all whiney about it. Colt Cabana came to Colt Cabunny's rescue.Colt is a much better person then CM Punk.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 13:26:25 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Punk the wrestler, but through interviews and stories about him, as well as my experience meeting and watching him at an indy show many years ago, he does come across as an absolutely obnoxious douchebag who both takes himself to seriously, and has a massive opinion of himself and his talents.
I think Flair could be argued to be a mark for himself. I agree with that based on one comment he made on the Four Horsemen DVD. I don't remember it word for word but in essence he said, 'If the Four Horsemen had been in WWE, Hogan would've been the opening match. And he knows that.' If he really believe that, he's an idiot, and a mark for himself.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Apr 8, 2012 13:36:45 GMT -5
Heh, so CP Munk offended him? Wow.
But those Punk stories still don't convey "mark" to me. Just sounds like he might be an asshole.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 13:40:47 GMT -5
Surely, Matt Hardy is his own biggest mark.
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Post by mjolnir on Apr 8, 2012 13:45:04 GMT -5
Another one with Punk is how well known it is that he sort of buried Steen's chances in ROH his first time through there. What alot of people don't know and/or have forgotten through time is that he also did the same to Generico. Apparently Punk and Generico had legit heat for a while because of Generico's theme, which Punk used to use in IWA: MS way back when. Gabe, and a few others, have mentioned that when Generico first came through ROH Punk tried his best to bury him to Gabe & Cary because he was pissed someone else was using one of "his" themes.
Mind you, he hadn't used it in ages by then.
Also clearly the two have since patched things up.
In general alot of the time Punk was an announcer at ROH, IWA: MS and a few other promotions. He was always funny, don't get me wrong, but he did no favors for any of the products. Constantly burying what was in the ring and what other stars the promotion had, and what big storylines were going on & putting himself over constantly.
Even when he was a face he did this.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Apr 8, 2012 13:46:20 GMT -5
You can't have a discussion about people who are marks for themselves without mentioning Hulk Hogan. Damn near everything that he says is a lie to make himself look better.
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Apr 8, 2012 13:50:48 GMT -5
In order to become a star in any form you almost have to be a mark for yourself, at least to a degree. After all if you don't believe yourself to be a star then how are you supposed to convince hundreds or even thousands or millions of other people that you are?
Sure, some people take it way too far, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying into your own hype just a little. Just as long you can keep your ego in check.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 8, 2012 14:05:16 GMT -5
Another one with Punk is how well known it is that he sort of buried Steen's chances in ROH his first time through there. What alot of people don't know and/or have forgotten through time is that he also did the same to Generico. Apparently Punk and Generico had legit heat for a while because of Generico's theme, which Punk used to use in IWA: MS way back when. Gabe, and a few others, have mentioned that when Generico first came through ROH Punk tried his best to bury him to Gabe & Cary because he was pissed someone else was using one of "his" themes. Mind you, he hadn't used it in ages by then. Also clearly the two have since patched things up. In general alot of the time Punk was an announcer at ROH, IWA: MS and a few other promotions. He was always funny, don't get me wrong, but he did no favors for any of the products. Constantly burying what was in the ring and what other stars the promotion had, and what big storylines were going on & putting himself over constantly. Even when he was a face he did this. In regards to the announcer deal, he was called on it by Mr. Anderson. Anderson wrestled in IWA: MS, and Punk just buried him on commentary so when they were in OVW together, Anderson confronted Punk about it, in which he apologized. I think Punk is an interesting individual and while I don't think he's a mark for himself, he may take himself a little bit too seriously and can be someone who gets annoyed easily. Of course, the whole, "when I first met CM Punk he was a douche to me" stories, and apparently everyone has one. A memorable one was when Domino wrestled him in TNA and tried to shake his hand and Punk gave him a limp wrist and looked at him like he hated him and wanted to be left alone. However, when I think of "mark for yourself" Hulk Hogan is the first thing that comes to my mind.
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Post by paperbackhero on Apr 8, 2012 14:11:24 GMT -5
Paul Roma Paul Orndorff Animal and Hawk Bruiser Brody
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Apr 8, 2012 14:26:17 GMT -5
Oh, yeah, and Buff Bagwell. He's a nice guy, but if you ask Buff Bagwell, the person at fault for Buff's somewhat middling career is "everyone BUT Buff Bagwell".
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Apr 8, 2012 15:37:10 GMT -5
This quote from Punk about the CP Munk character says everything you need to know about him taking himself too seriously: "I'm split 50/50 on it. Some days I get real pissed about it, because it's disrespectful. I'm sure it's no secret that the dorks that run Chikara and I don't get along, so they're [sic] judgement on trying to "mock" me is a little off. Most other days I just laugh it off because nobody from Chikara will ever be over enough anywhere for anybody else to parody them." Remember, this was after Punk no showed a bunch of times and he was still just a typical indie slob, not the super duper star ROH would make him out to be quite yet. Chikara also had Colt Cabunny in the same vein yet Colt Cabana didn't get all whiney about it. And I'm just gonna throw this one thing out there. Being straight edge means you don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, and also YOU DON'T SCREW! This is the one aspect of being straight edge Punk forgets because that would mean his reputation for being a "lady's man" would be null and void. Straight edge is about self control and not giving in to all vices that lead to nowhere. Sex is one of them. So when Punk goes on one of his tirades about not being weak and giving into temptation like the rest of you drunks and junkies my first reaction is "THTPTHPTPTTPTPTTT!!!!" not to get into a semantic debate about Straight-edge, but the only hard line idea of the concept is no drinking/smoking/doing drugs. the "no sex/must be a vegan etc." stuff is just added by some people who take it way too seriously.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Apr 8, 2012 15:39:34 GMT -5
Surely, Matt Hardy is his own biggest mark. Matt Hardy is pretty much the definition of "too big a mark for himself". the guy believes he should be a main eventer when he's done nothing to deserve it and his childish online antics are only a means to an end for him because he believes that any kind of attention is good attention. Shane Douglas has to be up there too. leaving out his constant blaming of Ric Flair for why his career never took off in WCW, his recent actions to get his show over, and lying about being kicked out of the venue just made him look pathetic.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Apr 8, 2012 15:43:24 GMT -5
You can't have a discussion about people who are marks for themselves without mentioning Hulk Hogan. Damn near everything that he says is a lie to make himself look better. The weird part is Hogan can just let the facts speak for themselves but he has to embellish them even more. And I love Hogan, but cripes. If he just told the truth, he'd still be the biggest star ever. But he feels the need to make it even bigger and then becomes a joke.
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Apr 8, 2012 21:31:04 GMT -5
This quote from Punk about the CP Munk character says everything you need to know about him taking himself too seriously: "I'm split 50/50 on it. Some days I get real pissed about it, because it's disrespectful. I'm sure it's no secret that the dorks that run Chikara and I don't get along, so they're [sic] judgement on trying to "mock" me is a little off. Most other days I just laugh it off because nobody from Chikara will ever be over enough anywhere for anybody else to parody them." Remember, this was after Punk no showed a bunch of times and he was still just a typical indie slob, not the super duper star ROH would make him out to be quite yet. Chikara also had Colt Cabunny in the same vein yet Colt Cabana didn't get all whiney about it. And I'm just gonna throw this one thing out there. Being straight edge means you don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, and also YOU DON'T SCREW! This is the one aspect of being straight edge Punk forgets because that would mean his reputation for being a "lady's man" would be null and void. Straight edge is about self control and not giving in to all vices that lead to nowhere. Sex is one of them. So when Punk goes on one of his tirades about not being weak and giving into temptation like the rest of you drunks and junkies my first reaction is "THTPTHPTPTTPTPTTT!!!!" not to get into a semantic debate about Straight-edge, but the only hard line idea of the concept is no drinking/smoking/doing drugs. the "no sex/must be a vegan etc." stuff is just added by some people who take it way too seriously. No problem, I know the straight edge scene has many twists and turns as to the actual details. I'm taking my definition of the term straight from Ian McKaye. If he said it then that's what I'm going with and in an interview he said that sex was included.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 21:37:43 GMT -5
The Great Sasuke, who doesn't show other wrestlers his face, according to Lance Storm. Storm said that he never had that problem with the original Tiger Mask, Liger, Ultimo but Sasuke was the one masked wrestler who refused to talk to him without the mask on. That's got to be up there.
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