|
Post by Wolf Hurricane on Oct 22, 2011 18:57:49 GMT -5
WWE has done more for Eve than they have for any other babyface diva currently on the roster. She got her own video packages hyping her MMA training last year. She got to tear down The Miz on the mic on RAW. She became almost a female member of Cryme Tyme and was in skits with them every week on SD. She came out rapping and dancing with R-Truth for a while to try and get some of his popularity to rub off on her. She got two title reigns. She gets more mic time than any of the others (on the shows that matter). Her face is usually front and center on any diva related merchandise, calendars, etc. Could they have done more for her? Sure. But there were girls like Gail Kim and Melina who were just as (or more) over as her without receiving the kind of opportunities that Eve got in the past 2 years. And of the girls who are still around, Alicia and AJ are no less over than her despite receiving virtually zero face time on the main shows. And Kelly has been hot-shotted into a bunch of stuff with no payoff (the Drew McIntyre stuff, her feud with Vickie, etc) just like Eve and managed to get/remain over with it. I just don’t see why they keep going back to Eve. Kelly’s matches with Beth were the best received diva matches all year (by the general audience) and she’s rewarded by having to take a backseat to Eve again? Then there are girls like AJ and Alicia who would probably kill for the opportunity of a singles match on PPV. Like I said: No matter what they do for her, she doesn't seem to be able to get over. She's passable in the ring. She's got a look that is universally agreed upon as good. She has some athleticism. But the crowd does not give a damn about her in spite of everything that she's done, and she's showed very little improvement since they brought her into the company in 2007. Whereas you look at someone like Alicia or AJ and they're doing great for themselves in spite of what little they receive. But WWE STILL insists on pushing her, rather than pushing the most over female they have or giving someone new a chance. So, we're all agreed that she's good in the ring and has taken time to get better. That's good, because that's supposed to be on her. Same as, she's not too bad on the microphone, so she's probably taken out the time to think of what she's going to say when she gets on the microphone. Yet another instance where she's taken the initiative. Pretty much in every field, Eve's taken care of her part of the weight; she keeps herself in shape, she's trying to learn new moves, she takes care of herself. Yet, she's not over. This is the one place that is not only on her, but on Creative. Think I'm lying? Dolph Ziggler is probably one of the best guys not in the main event right now, but do you seriously think we or anyone would be behind him if his character hadn't evolved beyond Nicky from the Spirit Squad? "Crammed down our throats" is one way to put it, but "hotshot with absolutely no direction" would probably be more accurate. Picture this: Heath Slater; hasn't been in a real storyline since breaking up with Gabriel, the few times you see him on television, he's jobbing. He wins a match or two and all of a sudden, he's number one contender for the Intercontinental title. A week or two later, he is Intercontinental champion! He then proceeds to, well, be Intercontinental champion, and not much else until he loses it and goes back to being a jobber. Now tell me, just how over do you think he'd be? She's pretty much the epitome of what's wrong with the booking of the Divas division: mindless hotshotting with zero commitment.
|
|
|
Post by Wolf Hurricane on Oct 22, 2011 19:09:36 GMT -5
Isn't AJ supposed to be the female Daniel Bryan? I think Kharma getting pregnant screwed up the whole long term booking of the divas division and it has not really recovered since. If I can be honest and just let my inner fanboy speak I wish WWE would just hire some more women from the indie leagues and let them keep their gimmicks as they come. Having some rough around the edges "alternative" divas would do so much more to make the division more interesting. That's what was so great about the TNA knockouts a couple of years ago. As much as Beth and Nattie say that they don't want to be like all the other divas, they still are. All the divas are pretty much interchangeable at this point to me. Victoria would be back in the WWE in about 1 second if they called her up. It was stupid to fire Serena Deeb. Sara Del Rey has said that she would wrestle for the WWE if they ever called her, as unthinkable as that seems. s***, I would take Angelina Love at this point just to have her around as the gross parody of a WWE diva she is. Hell yes to all! Well, most anyway. Between actually knowing how to "rassle" and being a veteran (which means she can work with or carry less capable Divas), Victoria alone would be a great reacquisition, not to mention the WWE Universe is already familiar with her. Similarly, whoever thought it was a good idea to release Serena should be future endeavored his/her damn self. As for Angelina, I'm not too much of a fan myself, but she's good in the ring and an amazing heel, so she'd be a good acquisition herself. Plus, she's a veteran of the ring, and that's never a bad thing. Del Rey, I'm iffy on. Gail mentioned in her shoot how the Divas were being handicapped; being barred from using moves and being told to be more "girly." I'm half curious and half skeptical as to how that would affect SDR's moveset. Maybe she's good enough to where she could pull out a clinic even with the blinders on. Or, maybe she'll be crippled to the point where her matches are half as good or less than they'd be in any other company.
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Oct 22, 2011 19:12:27 GMT -5
Isn't AJ supposed to be the female Daniel Bryan? I think Kharma getting pregnant screwed up the whole long term booking of the divas division and it has not really recovered since. If I can be honest and just let my inner fanboy speak I wish WWE would just hire some more women from the indie leagues and let them keep their gimmicks as they come. Having some rough around the edges "alternative" divas would do so much more to make the division more interesting. That's what was so great about the TNA knockouts a couple of years ago. As much as Beth and Nattie say that they don't want to be like all the other divas, they still are. All the divas are pretty much interchangeable at this point to me. Victoria would be back in the WWE in about 1 second if they called her up. It was stupid to fire Serena Deeb. Sara Del Rey has said that she would wrestle for the WWE if they ever called her, as unthinkable as that seems. s***, I would take Angelina Love at this point just to have her around as the gross parody of a WWE diva she is. the WWE doesn't do rough around the edges. Which is something I love about them
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2011 19:31:54 GMT -5
This is a company designed to make money and appease fans, and Eve does not net them money nor does she appease the audiences. That's why I'm a big advocate of Kelly Kelly right now. I don't care whether or not she blows in the ring like some people say, the crowd loves her and her wrestling style makes it nearly impossible for her to get injured. In the long-term she's a great investment. This is also why I'm still disappointed with WWE for turning and then firing Melina and derailing Natalya Neidhart's face run with the divas' title when she was really getting over as a champion. They really found something good with her, then they ruined that too. Yeah, and that's the big difference. i don't believe in pushing someone just cause they're supposedly "over." That' show we get crappy champions who can't work. Kelly and Eve both do lot's of PR work for the company and are both well liked by the company as far as I know, but Kelly just isn't very good in the ring. Eve is much better as a performer. i never used to think Kelly was that bad, but after she got put in the spotlight, I noticed it more and more. I think Eve is just flatout more talented, therefore I prefer her as champ. I realize that Eve isn't the most over Diva, but let's be honest, being the most over Diva is like being the tallest midget. Divas like Beth and Nattie aren't the most over, but they're better champions than Kelly, that's for sure. I'm not saying I even think Eve should be champion, but when you look at the other Divas, it makes the most sense for her to be in the title picture really. Also, tell me your love of Melina doesn't interfere with your opinions at all either. I disagree on the champion aspect. You want to have a champion people care about, not a champion who has a fantastic workrate. That's very important, don't think I'm throwing it under the bus, but popularity with the fans trumps wrestling ability if you have to pick one or the other. The fans are paying customers and they paid to see what they want to see. There's no need to give them something that isn't that, even if it's something that we may enjoy for their wrestling ability. Look at all the main eventers who get the big crowds, past and present. Hogan, HBK, Undertaker, Flair, Rock, Austin, Cena, Edge, Angle, Batista, Triple H, Jericho, and so forth. They were picked to be main eventers for their popularity, not for their wrestling ability. Fans loved them and it was capitalized on; they made WWE a lot of money. Eve Torres is definitely a better wrestler than Kelly Kelly, but the audience wants to see Kelly Kelly, not Eve Torres. I'm not saying you can't push Eve to try to get her over but they've been doing that since 2009 and they've gotten no return on that investment. Since she's not working, move on to someone else, or go back to whoever is more popular. It's not like a guy like John Morrison or Kofi Kingston getting pushed to the main event and then getting the rug pulled out from under them. Eve was never on the cusp of anything big in the women's division because she never got over. To which, again, I say bring her down to the 2nd tier and push someone else who's got a bigger upside. I'm not claiming I'm perfectly unbiased. Nobody is. But what's so unjustified about my being a fan of Melina, and how is it a big factor in this discussion?
|
|
Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
|
Post by Celgress on Oct 22, 2011 19:46:37 GMT -5
Yeah, and that's the big difference. i don't believe in pushing someone just cause they're supposedly "over." That' show we get crappy champions who can't work. Kelly and Eve both do lot's of PR work for the company and are both well liked by the company as far as I know, but Kelly just isn't very good in the ring. Eve is much better as a performer. i never used to think Kelly was that bad, but after she got put in the spotlight, I noticed it more and more. I think Eve is just flatout more talented, therefore I prefer her as champ. I realize that Eve isn't the most over Diva, but let's be honest, being the most over Diva is like being the tallest midget. Divas like Beth and Nattie aren't the most over, but they're better champions than Kelly, that's for sure. I'm not saying I even think Eve should be champion, but when you look at the other Divas, it makes the most sense for her to be in the title picture really. Also, tell me your love of Melina doesn't interfere with your opinions at all either. I disagree on the champion aspect. You want to have a champion people care about, not a champion who has a fantastic workrate. That's very important, don't think I'm throwing it under the bus, but popularity with the fans trumps wrestling ability if you have to pick one or the other..... You are 100% correct my good man, at the end of the day this is what matters most.
|
|
|
Post by Old Jack Burton on Oct 22, 2011 20:35:26 GMT -5
the WWE doesn't do rough around the edges. Which is something I love about them Why?
|
|
Magician under the moonlight
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Always Beaten To The Punchline. Always.
A magician and a thief. That's Badass
Posts: 15,727
|
Post by Magician under the moonlight on Oct 22, 2011 20:50:07 GMT -5
Yeah, and that's the big difference. i don't believe in pushing someone just cause they're supposedly "over." That' show we get crappy champions who can't work. Kelly and Eve both do lot's of PR work for the company and are both well liked by the company as far as I know, but Kelly just isn't very good in the ring. Eve is much better as a performer. i never used to think Kelly was that bad, but after she got put in the spotlight, I noticed it more and more. I think Eve is just flatout more talented, therefore I prefer her as champ. I realize that Eve isn't the most over Diva, but let's be honest, being the most over Diva is like being the tallest midget. Divas like Beth and Nattie aren't the most over, but they're better champions than Kelly, that's for sure. I'm not saying I even think Eve should be champion, but when you look at the other Divas, it makes the most sense for her to be in the title picture really. Also, tell me your love of Melina doesn't interfere with your opinions at all either. I disagree on the champion aspect. You want to have a champion people care about, not a champion who has a fantastic workrate. That's very important, don't think I'm throwing it under the bus, but popularity with the fans trumps wrestling ability if you have to pick one or the other. The fans are paying customers and they paid to see what they want to see. There's no need to give them something that isn't that, even if it's something that we may enjoy for their wrestling ability. Look at all the main eventers who get the big crowds, past and present. Hogan, HBK, Undertaker, Flair, Rock, Austin, Cena, Edge, Angle, Batista, Triple H, Jericho, and so forth. They were picked to be main eventers for their popularity, not for their wrestling ability. Fans loved them and it was capitalized on; they made WWE a lot of money. Eve Torres is definitely a better wrestler than Kelly Kelly, but the audience wants to see Kelly Kelly, not Eve Torres. I'm not saying you can't push Eve to try to get her over but they've been doing that since 2009 and they've gotten no return on that investment. Since she's not working, move on to someone else, or go back to whoever is more popular. It's not like a guy like John Morrison or Kofi Kingston getting pushed to the main event and then getting the rug pulled out from under them. Eve was never on the cusp of anything big in the women's division because she never got over. To which, again, I say bring her down to the 2nd tier and push someone else who's got a bigger upside. I'm not claiming I'm perfectly unbiased. Nobody is. But what's so unjustified about my being a fan of Melina, and how is it a big factor in this discussion? The problem with that is WWE did try to give the title to the more popular diva. However, the results were far fromt impressive. The divas segment was still losing viewers and no earnings were gained. I don't think Eve getting the title wilt just shows that being over with the crowd does not mean that you should be the centerfold of the division with limitwd wrestling skills. If so, then Maria, Torrie Wilson and Stacy Keibler should have been Women's champ when they were around. Hell, one of them won diva of the year without even doing anything all year.
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Oct 22, 2011 20:53:47 GMT -5
the WWE doesn't do rough around the edges. Which is something I love about them Why? I just enjoy professionalism. I like seeing talented people doing things well. Even if a guy only has four or five moves, if he(or she) can do them consistently without botching and put them together in a way that looks effective I tend to enjoy them. I'd rather see that than someone eating floor on a high risk move they don't do much.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2011 20:58:36 GMT -5
I disagree on the champion aspect. You want to have a champion people care about, not a champion who has a fantastic workrate. That's very important, don't think I'm throwing it under the bus, but popularity with the fans trumps wrestling ability if you have to pick one or the other. The fans are paying customers and they paid to see what they want to see. There's no need to give them something that isn't that, even if it's something that we may enjoy for their wrestling ability. Look at all the main eventers who get the big crowds, past and present. Hogan, HBK, Undertaker, Flair, Rock, Austin, Cena, Edge, Angle, Batista, Triple H, Jericho, and so forth. They were picked to be main eventers for their popularity, not for their wrestling ability. Fans loved them and it was capitalized on; they made WWE a lot of money. Eve Torres is definitely a better wrestler than Kelly Kelly, but the audience wants to see Kelly Kelly, not Eve Torres. I'm not saying you can't push Eve to try to get her over but they've been doing that since 2009 and they've gotten no return on that investment. Since she's not working, move on to someone else, or go back to whoever is more popular. It's not like a guy like John Morrison or Kofi Kingston getting pushed to the main event and then getting the rug pulled out from under them. Eve was never on the cusp of anything big in the women's division because she never got over. To which, again, I say bring her down to the 2nd tier and push someone else who's got a bigger upside. I'm not claiming I'm perfectly unbiased. Nobody is. But what's so unjustified about my being a fan of Melina, and how is it a big factor in this discussion? The problem with that is WWE did try to give the title to the more popular diva. However, the results were far fromt impressive. The divas segment was still losing viewers and no earnings were gained. I don't think Eve getting the title wilt just shows that being over with the crowd does not mean that you should be the centerfold of the division with limitwd wrestling skills. If so, then Maria, Torrie Wilson and Stacy Keibler should have been Women's champ when they were around. Hell, one of them won diva of the year without even doing anything all year. So an equivalent would be: when we have a sinking ship that's full of holes, we should put more holes in it? Surely that will stop it from sinking? Torrie, Maria and Stacy were popular divas in an era when there were other popular divas to contend for the belt (Trish and Lita being the most obvious examples, along with Mickie and Melina later on after Stacy was gone). That's why they moved off to the wayside. If there had been no Trish or no Lita to get in their way, there's a very strong likelihood that one of them would've gotten the title.
|
|
|
Post by dashingdro on Oct 22, 2011 20:58:58 GMT -5
"Crammed down our throats" is one way to put it, but "hotshot with absolutely no direction" would probably be more accurate. Picture this: Heath Slater; hasn't been in a real storyline since breaking up with Gabriel, the few times you see him on television, he's jobbing. He wins a match or two and all of a sudden, he's number one contender for the Intercontinental title. A week or two later, he is Intercontinental champion! He then proceeds to, well, be Intercontinental champion, and not much else until he loses it and goes back to being a jobber. Now tell me, just how over do you think he'd be? She's pretty much the epitome of what's wrong with the booking of the Divas division: mindless hotshotting with zero commitment. I agree with all of this. That is exactly what they are doing with Eve and it sucks because all of this hate is directed at her as a performer when in fact WWE has most of the blame here.
|
|
|
Post by Old Jack Burton on Oct 22, 2011 22:38:14 GMT -5
I just enjoy professionalism. I like seeing talented people doing things well. Even if a guy only has four or five moves, if he(or she) can do them consistently without botching and put them together in a way that looks effective I tend to enjoy them. I'd rather see that than someone eating floor on a high risk move they don't do much. That wasn't exactly what I was talking about. I was thinking more of of a rough around the edges character, not in-ring skills. Somebody who doesn't wear a ton of makeup, might have a couple of tatoos, wears jeans and t-shirt in a way that isn't overly "hot". Basically, half of the women in SHIMMER. Sara Del Rey has a very rough hard ass gimmick, but she's as good as any woman in the world in the ring. I actually was really hoping in a fanboy sort of way that she would get called up as a replacement when Kharma had to leave. Lita, Victoria, and Mickie all fulfilled that role to one extent or another. Melina seemed like she was getting there in her own way, but just didn't get the opportunity and then shot herself in the foot. AJ is sort of a G-rated version of what I'm talking about, but the "hey she likes video games guyz!!!" schtick is a little patronizing and gets old quick.
|
|
Magician under the moonlight
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Always Beaten To The Punchline. Always.
A magician and a thief. That's Badass
Posts: 15,727
|
Post by Magician under the moonlight on Oct 22, 2011 23:08:26 GMT -5
The problem with that is WWE did try to give the title to the more popular diva. However, the results were far fromt impressive. The divas segment was still losing viewers and no earnings were gained. I don't think Eve getting the title wilt just shows that being over with the crowd does not mean that you should be the centerfold of the division with limitwd wrestling skills. If so, then Maria, Torrie Wilson and Stacy Keibler should have been Women's champ when they were around. Hell, one of them won diva of the year without even doing anything all year. So an equivalent would be: when we have a sinking ship that's full of holes, we should put more holes in it? Surely that will stop it from sinking? Torrie, Maria and Stacy were popular divas in an era when there were other popular divas to contend for the belt (Trish and Lita being the most obvious examples, along with Mickie and Melina later on after Stacy was gone). That's why they moved off to the wayside. If there had been no Trish or no Lita to get in their way, there's a very strong likelihood that one of them would've gotten the title. Thing is after Trish and Lita left, only 2 feamle wrestlers that were really popular were Torrie, Maria and Mickie. Melina though is still debatable in terms on her popularity, though her splits did get pops/. However, WWE was smart enough to not give Torrie and Maria the belt, despite despite being the second and third most popular divas. Imagine WWE giving either of them the belt.
|
|
Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
Own Nothing, Be Happy
Posts: 6,308
|
Post by Sam Punk on Oct 22, 2011 23:58:57 GMT -5
DelRey would be great in WWE but I just can't see it happening. She's just too much of a butterface for them to consider her.
|
|
|
Post by Old Jack Burton on Oct 23, 2011 0:30:53 GMT -5
only 2 feamle wrestlers that were really popular were Torrie, Maria and Mickie. DelRey would be great in WWE but I just can't see it happening. She's just too much of a butterface for them to consider her. She would have to come in with her Death Rey persona and be booked as a monster heel like Kharma. Sad thing is, we know what happens to monster heels after they get beat.
|
|
Heartbreaker
King Koopa
Is actually Bindi Irwin
RIP Punk's media scrum, Page 54, Muffins, Biting People Bad™ (2022 - 2022)
Posts: 11,846
|
Post by Heartbreaker on Oct 23, 2011 0:42:54 GMT -5
So how long until this thread reaches twenty pages? You know, just like the thread about CM Punk praising Divas Of Doom which somehow turned into what is and not is sexist.
|
|
Magician under the moonlight
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Always Beaten To The Punchline. Always.
A magician and a thief. That's Badass
Posts: 15,727
|
Post by Magician under the moonlight on Oct 23, 2011 0:53:39 GMT -5
only 2 feamle wrestlers that were really popular were Torrie, Maria and Mickie. I meant 3 females. I wasn't sure if Torrie was still around when Trish left.
|
|
BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
|
Post by BigWill on Oct 23, 2011 0:56:16 GMT -5
She would have to come in with her Death Rey persona and be booked as a monster heel like Kharma. Sad thing is, we know what happens to monster heels after they get beat. They get pregnant?
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Oct 23, 2011 7:52:09 GMT -5
The problem with that is WWE did try to give the title to the more popular diva. However, the results were far fromt impressive. The divas segment was still losing viewers and no earnings were gained. I don't think Eve getting the title wilt just shows that being over with the crowd does not mean that you should be the centerfold of the division with limitwd wrestling skills. If so, then Maria, Torrie Wilson and Stacy Keibler should have been Women's champ when they were around. Hell, one of them won diva of the year without even doing anything all year. So an equivalent would be: when we have a sinking ship that's full of holes, we should put more holes in it? Surely that will stop it from sinking? Torrie, Maria and Stacy were popular divas in an era when there were other popular divas to contend for the belt (Trish and Lita being the most obvious examples, along with Mickie and Melina later on after Stacy was gone). That's why they moved off to the wayside. If there had been no Trish or no Lita to get in their way, there's a very strong likelihood that one of them would've gotten the title. Hell, Maria was about to and it was inexplicably dropped.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 7:58:46 GMT -5
So an equivalent would be: when we have a sinking ship that's full of holes, we should put more holes in it? Surely that will stop it from sinking? Torrie, Maria and Stacy were popular divas in an era when there were other popular divas to contend for the belt (Trish and Lita being the most obvious examples, along with Mickie and Melina later on after Stacy was gone). That's why they moved off to the wayside. If there had been no Trish or no Lita to get in their way, there's a very strong likelihood that one of them would've gotten the title. Thing is after Trish and Lita left, only 2 feamle wrestlers that were really popular were Torrie, Maria and Mickie. Melina though is still debatable in terms on her popularity, though her splits did get pops/. However, WWE was smart enough to not give Torrie and Maria the belt, despite despite being the second and third most popular divas. Imagine WWE giving either of them the belt. As a heel diva, Melina was getting some respectable boos (which is rare for heel divas these days), and when she turned face, it was by the crowd's own devices. Remember her feud with Beth in 2008 where she went into it as a heel. People started cheering her and they turned Melina face as a result, and she was getting good cheers whenever she wrestled. By 2009 she was tied with Mickie and Maria for most over diva; by 2010 she was the most over diva. When you consider Melina and Mickie both being popular and good wrestlers, there was never a need to elevate Maria or Torrie to the title because the division was generally focused on Melina or Mickie chasing or holding the belt and everyone else was window-dressing (Candice's push being the exception to this rule). But if there was no Mickie or Melina, for want of a good wrestler who was popular, they'd push someone popular. Hell, Maria was about to and it was inexplicably dropped. This is also true, which lends credence to the idea that WWE knew full well who was popular and wanted to push them as a result.
|
|
|
Post by noleafclover1980 on Oct 23, 2011 13:38:40 GMT -5
So how long until this thread reaches twenty pages? You know, just like the thread about CM Punk praising Divas Of Doom which somehow turned into what is and not is sexist. I wanna argue about whether AJ is Fillipina or not some more!
|
|