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Post by AztecaDragon on Nov 18, 2011 19:28:18 GMT -5
Whoa...that documentary could've been longer and more detailed, but it's not magoo. I loved the point it made about the role of women, being there and scantily clad to counteract the blatant homoerotic elements of the product. Though I really didn't need to see those Diva moments again...and I had NUCLEAR HEATZ towards those "Male Wrestler Forces A Kiss On A Woman! LOLOLOLOLOLOL~" spots. Always degrading. Always. And I could've gone my entire life without seeing any part of that HLA segment again. Ugh...flames on the side of my face... It didnt help their cause blaming wrestling for pushing society's ills, and then showing all the people they had interviewed saying that they saw it as just a bit of fun and entertainment. If youre claiming it is wrecking society and youve just shown a bunch of people claim it has no real effect on their lives, doesnt your research seem redundant? I think it'd only seem that way if you didn't pay attention to what it was saying and didn't think about why they bothered to show statistics: The messages in our popular media affect and shape our culture in many ways. WWE is VERY popular media to the point the WWE tells us this incessantly. The messages one gets from WWE are slanted towards a wretched mindset that has very bad consequences. That's why they talked about domestic violence, showed footage, then provided some stats. That's why they talked about bullying, showed footage, then provided some stats. That's why they talked about homophobia, showed footage, then provided some stats. It could've been much better but eh...not for any reason I've seen so far in this topic.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Nov 18, 2011 20:03:11 GMT -5
One that I didn't see mentioned: Molly Holly is fat. Outside of Vince/Trish, this has to be the worst for me. I found Molly to be super hot because she was fit, very toned and wass a strong, beautiful woman. So I was seriously pissed when they started using that to get people to boo her when anyone intelligent can see that she's anything but fat.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Nov 18, 2011 20:25:10 GMT -5
Whoa...that documentary could've been longer and more detailed, but it's not magoo. I loved the point it made about the role of women, being there and scantily clad to counteract the blatant homoerotic elements of the product. Though I really didn't need to see those Diva moments again...and I had NUCLEAR HEATZ towards those "Male Wrestler Forces A Kiss On A Woman! LOLOLOLOLOLOL~" spots. Always degrading. Always. And I could've gone my entire life without seeing any part of that HLA segment again. Ugh...flames on the side of my face... It didnt help their cause blaming wrestling for pushing society's ills, and then showing all the people they had interviewed saying that they saw it as just a bit of fun and entertainment. If youre claiming it is wrecking society and youve just shown a bunch of people claim it has no real effect on their lives, doesnt your research seem redundant? I think it'd only seem that way if you didn't pay attention to what it was saying and didn't think about why they bothered to show statistics: The messages in our popular media affect and shape our culture in many ways. WWE is VERY popular media to the point the WWE tells us this incessantly. The messages one gets from WWE are slanted towards a wretched mindset that has very bad consequences. That's why they talked about domestic violence, showed footage, then provided some stats. That's why they talked about bullying, showed footage, then provided some stats. That's why they talked about homophobia, showed footage, then provided some stats. It could've been much better but eh...not for any reason I've seen so far in this topic. Dont get me wrong, I dont think the entire thing was bad, there were some valid points. HLA was cringeworthy high-school-level-of-thinking stuff, and those stupid "force your kiss on the girl" bits always leave me wondering why the crowd pop for them. I have to disagree on the homoeroticism cliches though. And thats what they are, cliches. Its a narrowminded and lazy conclusion to say any combat sport, real or staged, is an allusion to homosexuality. It's basically just following the golden rule of critical theory "if you can see its there, then to you its there". The women were there in the Attitude Era solely because it was in an era of trash TV and having scantily clad women paraded on TV doing degrading things followed the cultural trends. And Im sick of television being blamed for homophobia, domestic abuse, bullying etc. TV does not raise kids. Parents raise kids. Your role models are not the two guys main eventing WrestleMania. I've watched the WWE since I was 3 and Ive taken nothing from it. I tried moves on my brother at a young age just because we were young and dumb, but at the age of 22, I've never assaulted a woman, I dont use homophobic slurs and I dont bully people.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Nov 18, 2011 21:28:45 GMT -5
Dont get me wrong, I dont think the entire thing was bad, there were some valid points. HLA was cringeworthy high-school-level-of-thinking stuff, and those stupid "force your kiss on the girl" bits always leave me wondering why the crowd pop for them. The same reason they cheered when Trish was made to bark and strip. The same reason they cheered when Triple H yelled and dropped Stephanie on her face. The same reason they cheered when Cryme Tyme put Lita's personal items on sale. The crowd believes the women "deserve" it especially if they're being heels. The problems are in how the power dynamics are completely uneven in the interactions. But again, in the video they explained the appeal of the women wrestling like they did as a tease to the ubiquitous guy fantasy of Lesbianism and even used Jerry Lawler's explanation of the appeal of women wrestling as a point. It's hard to see that be referenced so much with women wrestling but it somehow not applying to the men who are in the same positions themselves a lot of the times. Just because it's men doing it doesn't make it...not homoerotic. I mean, you don't have to agree but you do at least know why anyone would talk and joke about pro-wrestling being one giant slash-fic. That's still the cultural trend. You tried wrestling moves on your brother, huh? What you said there supports the point of the media you watch influencing your actions. ;D But no, it's a bit more than you yourself not laying hands on a woman or bullying people around. It's about supporting an environment where that not only becomes the social norm, but where speaking out against someone doing this makes you seem like "less of a man." Which, considering all of the gendered insults they like to use, would make you more "feminine." So what would that say about me or really some random WWE Diva? And no guy ever wants to be considered "feminine" anything, right? Being "feminine" sucks. Society (particularly the WWE) tells us so, especially with the crazy stuff they do with the divas. Sure, you won't bully some person around...but what would you do if one of your friends bullied some smaller guy and justifies it by him saying the guy was annoying? What would you do if one of your parents threw around homophobic slurs? Would you come out and tell say, a bunch of your guy friends, to stop verbally harassing some girl they thought was hideous? Or how about just not referring to women as "ho's"? You may be Major Model Citizen and that's fine, you're not supposed to be a jerk-o-lantern but way too many people do this stuff. And odds are, they'd be taking their cues from what they see or from what other people have seen since they've got to learn this stuff from somewhere... Media is EVERYWHERE, man. That's why you have to keep your brain "turned on" as much as you can when watching this stuff.
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Post by mrtuesday on Nov 18, 2011 21:49:35 GMT -5
Victoria appearing as one of The Godfather's Hos She wasn't Victoria, yet. At least the Victoria that she became famous for being. At the time she was a Ho, she was just another Indy worker that was given a shot on TV as a background character. She was eventually repackaged and became the Victoria was all remember her as. So, tl;dr verson: It doesn't count.
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TheDieselTrain
Fry's dog Seymour
Chicks Dig Hootie.
Is Stone Cold gonna have to smack a bitch?? WHAT!!!?????
Posts: 23,724
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Nov 18, 2011 23:08:42 GMT -5
Didn't the Kat win the Women's Title due to beating someone in a mud match? By the way, NXT3 was so bad it turned me against NXT altogether. No she won it at a lingerie pool party. However, she successfully defended her title against Tori in a mud match. Her only title defence . Not that it makes that much of a difference but it was chocolate pudding not mud.
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Post by norsisclouds on Nov 19, 2011 1:42:57 GMT -5
I think AztecaDragon touches on a good point-something that I always found ridiculous and humorous in a really dark and sad sort of way--so we had Lita, the bad guy heel diva who was a bad guy because she tried to use her sexuality to gain advantages and helped her boyfriend cheat to get title shots. She also, according to the show--was a "slut" and therefore even worse, at the bottom of the food chain in desirability among the divas and thus chanted at, demeaned, and heckled every episode. BUT you also had good guy divas who prominently displayed their sexuality, even in Playboy or just on a regular segment on the show--like Ashley, Kelly, Torrie, Mickie (showing her ass) and Trish Stratus--even when she was face. (Remember when she told Carlito she preferred to swallow?) It was strange for example, to see Lita come out to wrestle a match covered nearly from head to toe in black and a Rated R shirt, while her opponent came out with their boobs and ass hanging out and got cheered while she was jeered and got slut chants throughout the match.
I mean--I got it from a storyline perspective--she was always shown hitting on management or sexing it up with Edge, but her behavior was not really different from what any of the other women were doing and were getting patted on the back for...why she was hated definitely had a lot more to do with the real life Matt Hardy scandal, so I assume the audience was watching and thinking "this is really her, and who she is behind closed doors," so she could have come out covered from head to toe showing absolutely nothing, and still have gotten nasty chants. Even so, I always thought it was so strange how people could just divorce themselves from the reality of the other female characters on the show, who display the equivalent amount, if not *more* sexuality and promiscuous behavior and categorize those women as "good guys" but still think of Lita as evil incarnate.
That definitely had to be the real life angle blurred into her storyline as a heel--I remember her saying she got tired of people giving her dirty looks in the grocery store like "Oh there goes that slut"...but I could never stop shaking my head at that in her final matches. She'd come out dressed conservatively and get slut and ho chants, while her opponents in mini skirts bras and halter tops would get cheers...so at least we can say the WWE audience doesn't hate you for sleeping around or showing off your sexuality, I guess they just hate you when they project their cheating girlfriend scenario onto your character. XD
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2011 1:44:00 GMT -5
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Post by Cela on Nov 19, 2011 2:19:44 GMT -5
I think AztecaDragon touches on a good point-something that I always found ridiculous and humorous in a really dark and sad sort of way--so we had Lita, the bad guy heel diva who was a bad guy because she tried to use her sexuality to gain advantages and helped her boyfriend cheat to get title shots. She also, according to the show--was a "slut" and therefore even worse, at the bottom of the food chain in desirability among the divas and thus chanted at, demeaned, and heckled every episode. BUT you also had good guy divas who prominently displayed their sexuality, even in Playboy or just on a regular segment on the show--like Ashley, Kelly, Torrie, Mickie (showing her ass) and Trish Stratus--even when she was face. (Remember when she told Carlito she preferred to swallow?) It was strange for example, to see Lita come out to wrestle a match covered nearly from head to toe in black and a Rated R shirt, while her opponent came out with their boobs and ass hanging out and got cheered while she was jeered and got slut chants throughout the match. I mean--I got it from a storyline perspective--she was always shown hitting on management or sexing it up with Edge, but her behavior was not really different from what any of the other women were doing and were getting patted on the back for...why she was hated definitely had a lot more to do with the real life Matt Hardy scandal, so I assume the audience was watching and thinking "this is really her, and who she is behind closed doors," so she could have come out covered from head to toe showing absolutely nothing, and still have gotten nasty chants. Even so, I always thought it was so strange how people could just divorce themselves from the reality of the other female characters on the show, who display the equivalent amount, if not *more* sexuality and promiscuous behavior and categorize those women as "good guys" but still think of Lita as evil incarnate. That definitely had to be the real life angle blurred into her storyline as a heel--I remember her saying she got tired of people giving her dirty looks in the grocery store like "Oh there goes that slut"...but I could never stop shaking my head at that in her final matches. She'd come out dressed conservatively and get slut and ho chants, while her opponents in mini skirts bras and halter tops would get cheers...so at least we can say the WWE audience doesn't hate you for sleeping around or showing off your sexuality, I guess they just hate you when they project their cheating girlfriend scenario onto your character. XD There was a difference. Did Trish and the faces flaunt sexuality? Sure. But they did it in the quasi innocent way that is apparently acceptable. Lita meanwhile was an out and out heel in actions, and she used her sexuality to manipulate people, like Kane for some reason to get him to team up with Edge somehow. And she taunted Matt Hardy, with boobs!
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Post by Starshine on Nov 19, 2011 2:26:15 GMT -5
I think AztecaDragon touches on a good point-something that I always found ridiculous and humorous in a really dark and sad sort of way--so we had Lita, the bad guy heel diva who was a bad guy because she tried to use her sexuality to gain advantages and helped her boyfriend cheat to get title shots. She also, according to the show--was a "slut" and therefore even worse, at the bottom of the food chain in desirability among the divas and thus chanted at, demeaned, and heckled every episode. BUT you also had good guy divas who prominently displayed their sexuality, even in Playboy or just on a regular segment on the show--like Ashley, Kelly, Torrie, Mickie (showing her ass) and Trish Stratus--even when she was face. (Remember when she told Carlito she preferred to swallow?) It was strange for example, to see Lita come out to wrestle a match covered nearly from head to toe in black and a Rated R shirt, while her opponent came out with their boobs and ass hanging out and got cheered while she was jeered and got slut chants throughout the match. I mean--I got it from a storyline perspective--she was always shown hitting on management or sexing it up with Edge, but her behavior was not really different from what any of the other women were doing and were getting patted on the back for...why she was hated definitely had a lot more to do with the real life Matt Hardy scandal, so I assume the audience was watching and thinking "this is really her, and who she is behind closed doors," so she could have come out covered from head to toe showing absolutely nothing, and still have gotten nasty chants. Even so, I always thought it was so strange how people could just divorce themselves from the reality of the other female characters on the show, who display the equivalent amount, if not *more* sexuality and promiscuous behavior and categorize those women as "good guys" but still think of Lita as evil incarnate. That definitely had to be the real life angle blurred into her storyline as a heel--I remember her saying she got tired of people giving her dirty looks in the grocery store like "Oh there goes that slut"...but I could never stop shaking my head at that in her final matches. She'd come out dressed conservatively and get slut and ho chants, while her opponents in mini skirts bras and halter tops would get cheers...so at least we can say the WWE audience doesn't hate you for sleeping around or showing off your sexuality, I guess they just hate you when they project their cheating girlfriend scenario onto your character. XD There was a difference. Did Trish and the faces flaunt sexuality? Sure. But they did it in the quasi innocent way that is apparently acceptable. Lita meanwhile was an out and out heel in actions, and she used her sexuality to manipulate people, like Kane for some reason to get him to team up with Edge somehow. And she taunted Matt Hardy, with boobs! Well it's not like a face diva hasn't done something similar. I mean we saw the sweet innocent angel and cheating stripper Kelly Kelly tell Kane she was doing Miz so that the former would beat the latter up. I'd call that a case of manipulation via sexuality. ...Poor Kane.
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Post by Ryushinku on Nov 19, 2011 4:59:47 GMT -5
Ugh...flames on the side of my face... Burning, HEAVING breaths...
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Nov 19, 2011 5:31:39 GMT -5
Anytime they use Mae Young I get angry because they're basically disgracing a 90 year old woman for comedy purposes.
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Nov 19, 2011 5:36:26 GMT -5
Totally forgot about Lita/Cryme Tyme. That is EASILY 1st Runner-Up and can make a case to win. That's how you say goodbye to a Diva that sacrificed her body for years, helped put the division of the map, and helped make Edge a mega-star? Come on, WWE... I take comfort in that Lita was given a much warmer reception and send off at the 15th Anniversary Raw later on. Which JR proceded to ruin.
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Nov 19, 2011 5:39:25 GMT -5
Well it's not like a face diva hasn't done something similar. I mean we saw the sweet innocent angel and cheating stripper Kelly Kelly tell Kane she was doing Miz so that the former would beat the latter up. I'd call that a case of manipulation via sexuality. ...Poor Kane. That's not manipulation via sexuality. That is protecting the man she was in love with.
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Nov 19, 2011 5:41:59 GMT -5
Anytime they use Mae Young I get angry because they're basically disgracing a 90 year old woman for comedy purposes. The problem with your thesis is that Mae agreed to do all those things, so it can't be disgracing her.
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PKO
King Koopa
Posts: 12,615
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Post by PKO on Nov 19, 2011 10:15:13 GMT -5
I take comfort in that Lita was given a much warmer reception and send off at the 15th Anniversary Raw later on. Which JR proceded to ruin. How did JR ruin it?
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Post by norsisclouds on Nov 19, 2011 22:11:40 GMT -5
I think AztecaDragon touches on a good point-something that I always found ridiculous and humorous in a really dark and sad sort of way--so we had Lita, the bad guy heel diva who was a bad guy because she tried to use her sexuality to gain advantages and helped her boyfriend cheat to get title shots... There was a difference. Did Trish and the faces flaunt sexuality? Sure. But they did it in the quasi innocent way that is apparently acceptable. Lita meanwhile was an out and out heel in actions, and she used her sexuality to manipulate people, like Kane for some reason to get him to team up with Edge somehow. And she taunted Matt Hardy, with boobs! It's just hilarious to me because I don't see a big difference between her attempting to trade on her sexuality for favors from management and Torrie stripping down to an itty bitty bikini to tantalize the audience. I guess having sex behind closed doors or offering sexual favors in exchange for advantages is bad, but as long as you do it all for free and often, that's OK...but that is the literal definition of a "whore". I just found that small delineation so incredibly amusing. I think the WWE audience is a bit weird sometimes though. Wasn't Ashley Massaro getting booed once her past as a high-end escort was revealed? It was like, the audience only liked her before when she dressed like an escort, but not now when it was actually revealed she was an former escort. lol I will say Lita's heel run will probably be the last time you ever see a woman come out in barely anything and get booed and torn apart by the audience, even King turned against her in her last year. I never thought I'd see the day when Lawler would fail to defend the most scantily clad woman in the ring, he always stood by Trish, Stacy and countless others.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Nov 19, 2011 22:26:58 GMT -5
There was a difference. Did Trish and the faces flaunt sexuality? Sure. But they did it in the quasi innocent way that is apparently acceptable. Lita meanwhile was an out and out heel in actions, and she used her sexuality to manipulate people, like Kane for some reason to get him to team up with Edge somehow. And she taunted Matt Hardy, with boobs! It's just hilarious to me because I don't see a big difference between her attempting to trade on her sexuality for favors from management and Torrie stripping down to an itty bitty bikini to tantalize the audience. I guess having sex behind closed doors or offering sexual favors in exchange for advantages is bad, but as long as you do it all for free and often, that's OK...but that is the literal definition of a "whore". I just found that small delineation so incredibly amusing. I think the WWE audience is a bit weird sometimes though. Wasn't Ashley Massaro getting booed once her past as a high-end escort was revealed? It was like, the audience only liked her before when she dressed like an escort, but not now when it was actually revealed she was an former escort. lol I will say Lita's heel run will probably be the last time you ever see a woman come out in barely anything and get booed and torn apart by the audience, even King turned against her in her last year. I never thought I'd see the day when Lawler would fail to defend the most scantily clad woman in the ring, he always stood by Trish, Stacy and countless others. It's almost this grade school mentality that it's alright for them to be sexy, so long as they don't actually have sex. Yet, the sexy is a must, because too much clothes means they're a prude, and no one likes prudes. But no one likes sluts... so the only way to appeal to them is to look like you have sex, but not actually have sex. Or something.
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Post by norsisclouds on Nov 19, 2011 23:50:15 GMT -5
It's almost this grade school mentality that it's alright for them to be sexy, so long as they don't actually have sex. Yet, the sexy is a must, because too much clothes means they're a prude, and no one likes prudes. But no one likes sluts... so the only way to appeal to them is to look like you have sex, but not actually have sex. Or something. Which is why I laughed...laughed until I cried. Really though, I knew it was wrong and twisted but I did always find that stuff from '06 funny because of the way the people involved played it off...particularly when Lita would get insulted and Edge would instantly react as if what the person said was true and yank his hand away or give her an accusing look until she defended herself and she would react similarly when his sexuality was questioned. The only huge issue I had with it was the Cryme Tyme segment and that horrible exchange she had with DX about a week prior where they interfered in her match with Mickie so she could get hit with an obscenely large sausage while they led ho cheers. On another note, Trish was definitely the master of that fine sexuality line when she was face...but once again, it was still weird how whenever she went face suddenly her "whorish" behavior was forgotten and she was a beloved goody-goody that never used sex to get ahead...but would remind Carlito that she swallowed and have a fantasy lingerie match. Inconsistencies!
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