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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 13:23:57 GMT -5
Six paragraphs is a long post? Six short paragraphs, each with one basic idea, is not a long post. In the spoken word, that would be 60 seconds tops. Is your attention span really that short? Or is your position of "I'm right, it's as simple as that" ultimately just indefensible? On what grounds are you telling me I'm going to fail financially? Every other "battle of the sexes" in every other sport has been an absolute gold mine of promotion and sponsorship money, every other case of a woman testing her mettle in open competition has been a media circus. I'm not talking about booking a whole promotion based on mixed-gender MMA (MMMA?) because there's so few weight classes I could run. However, we're talking about taking one exceptional female athlete who makes a public statement that she wants to try to fight a man in her weight class, so on the next MMA card, Christiane Santos is going to take on a #20 ranked featherweight. And you are convinced this is going to be a failure because "it's as simple as that"? Can they even air Men vs. Women matches in Canada? I seem to recall that they edit out all male/female violence from WWE programming. The networks at the time were doing it by choice. The Canadian Broadcast Standards Council (a voluntary organization where networks agree to regulate their own content, similar to ESRB ratings) has ruled on it in the past and found no need to censor; timeslot choices and viewer discretion warnings were all that was required for CBSC compliance. The specific code sections: Seems pretty clear that a mixed MMA match would have no legal problems.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Nov 20, 2011 13:53:07 GMT -5
Just for posterity, a "mixed match" wouldn't be something like Gina Carano versus Anderson Silva, if only for the fact that the weight difference would be gigantic. Did the research; believably they could do a match-up between the two #1 fighters of the Featherweight division - Cris "Cyborg" Santos and Jose Aldo. They're pretty much in the same place as far as ranking and they're practically the same weight.
Not saying I agree or disagree; while I'm not firmly against it, there's not too much mixed wrestling in mainstream pro, and whenever there is, it's almost always portrayed one of three ways: a curbstomp (Carlito/Victoria, Jamie/Nidia), a comedy bout (many of the Santino/Diva matches), or pretty much foreplay in the middle of the ring (Madusa/Karagias). There aren't too many instances of a match-up being taken seriously between a man and a woman in mainstream pro-wrestling.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Nov 20, 2011 14:10:46 GMT -5
I find it unsettling having a bunch of guys defining what Feminism is for various reasons. Mostly because I see guys getting to define EVERYTHING and look credible no matter how...off the definitions are. That's not to say you can't discuss it because Feminism affects guys too, but I give a lot of side-eye when dudes start throwing around that word and defining it.
Anyway, I'd rather not have Del Rey wrestling men. I don't buy the idea that the best way for a woman to be a legitimate athlete is to compete against men.
Why?
That idea NEVER seems to brought up in the opposite direction in any serious way. So all it would do is support the idea that the other women are athletically inferior, their self-imposed power dynamics between how the women are treated and how the men are treated are too slanted in men's favor for SDR wrestling men to be anything but a problem.
Just build your damn women's division as it is first. It'll just take the apparently impossible task of cultivating the division and hiring a variety of wrestlers to make it work.
....or if they don't want to do that, they could just seriously book the women as legitimate athletic threats just like the men immediately. Of course, you'd have a few people's heads exploding about how "believable" it isn't but in the entirely scripted world of Pro Wrestling and with the way WWE books things they really like, they just have to book it consistently for years until you beat those people down into compliance. Until it becomes "believable."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 15:00:42 GMT -5
Just for posterity, a "mixed match" wouldn't be something like Gina Carano versus Anderson Silva, if only for the fact that the weight difference would be gigantic. Did the research; believably they could do a match-up between the two #1 fighters of the Featherweight division - Cris "Cyborg" Santos and Jose Aldo. They're pretty much in the same place as far as ranking and they're practically the same weight. There is absolutely no reason why two well-trained 145# fighters with the same body fat percent should have anything but a highly competitive match. I don't know enough about MMA to know whether upper body strength beats lower body strength in general, but presumably "well-trained" involves working within your personal assets. Feminism is about sex equality, not women being better then men or anything or women just being mad at men. "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is" - Yogi Berra. Your definition is off by one key phrase: Feminism is about achieving sex equality by focusing solely by elevating the status of women. In the time when women couldn't even vote, when they weren't even seen as human beings, of course this twist meant virtually nothing.. but now, women have achieved so close to equality in Western culture that the "twist" starts to make a big difference. Of the sexist institution that still exist in Western culture, a non-trivial number of them work in women's favor. How do you correct these by focusing solely on elevating the status of women? What pro-woman legislation, pro-woman affirmative action or pro-woman quota will ensure women get "equal time for equal crime"? There's feminism, and there's egalitarianism, and in today's culture, the two are no longer synonymous. Maybe a century ago, maybe half a century ago. But not today, not here, not now.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 20, 2011 16:58:45 GMT -5
I'd like to point out to all of you that Kaitlyn, by far the worst wrestler on the show, won NXT season 3 specifically because she was hot and had "personality" (aka Vickie Guerrero was her pro). The two who could actually wrestle both lost to her. Now consider that audience and then look at SDR. Not saying she's ugly, but it's not as if the casual fan doesn't gravitate towards the hotter women.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Nov 20, 2011 17:10:59 GMT -5
Which casual fans are you talking about? Feminism is about achieving sex equality by focusing solely by elevating the status of women. Jinkies, where do you get your definitions of Feminism?
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 20, 2011 17:22:16 GMT -5
Which casual fans are you talking about? Feminism is about achieving sex equality by focusing solely by elevating the status of women. Jinkies, where do you get your definitions of Feminism? The ones who aren't on the internet seeing everyone refer to Kelly Kelly as a whore who sleeps with everyone to get ahead and is a terrible wrestler. Notice how she's the most cheered one on the roster, yet everyone here seems to hate her. That's what the casual fan.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Nov 20, 2011 17:30:09 GMT -5
The ones who aren't on the internet seeing everyone refer to Kelly Kelly as a whore who sleeps with everyone to get ahead and is a terrible wrestler. Notice how she's the most cheered one on the roster, yet everyone here seems to hate her. That's what the casual fan. And seem to be very heterosexual and very male judging from how you phrased it.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Nov 20, 2011 17:30:39 GMT -5
I find it unsettling having a bunch of guys defining what Feminism is for various reasons. Mostly because I see guys getting to define EVERYTHING and look credible no matter how...off the definitions are. That's not to say you can't discuss it because Feminism affects guys too, but I give a lot of side-eye when dudes start throwing around that word and defining it. Anyway, I'd rather not have Del Rey wrestling men. I don't buy the idea that the best way for a woman to be a legitimate athlete is to compete against men. Why? That idea NEVER seems to brought up in the opposite direction in any serious way. So all it would do is support the idea that the other women are athletically inferior, their self-imposed power dynamics between how the women are treated and how the men are treated are too slanted in men's favor for SDR wrestling men to be anything but a problem. Just build your damn women's division as it is first. It'll just take the apparently impossible task of cultivating the division and hiring a variety of wrestlers to make it work. ....or if they don't want to do that, they could just seriously book the women as legitimate athletic threats just like the men immediately. Of course, you'd have a few people's heads exploding about how "believable" it isn't but in the entirely scripted world of Pro Wrestling and with the way WWE books things they really like, they just have to book it consistently for years until you beat those people down into compliance. Until it becomes "believable." And in here you raise a great point. Having a woman as a special case in the mens wrestling makes womens wrestling look inferior by claiming she is above it. If SDR can go into the mens ranks, then why dont they send Primo into the womens division and have him stomp every Diva and win the Butterfly Belt? One is no different than the other. Build a credible womens division, intergender matches dont need to happen.
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Post by celticjobber on Nov 20, 2011 17:37:12 GMT -5
If Vince McMahon thought Francine was too "ugly" to be featured on TV regularly, then he'd probably think the same about Del Ray.
Hell, according to XPac, WWE didn't want Faby Apache after he put in the word for her because she's too "bottom heavy", and she's not any bigger than Del Rey.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Nov 20, 2011 17:39:43 GMT -5
And this thread gone serious.
Best way to book Sara Del Rey is following the Beth Phoenix playbook. Make her a dominator in the Divas division, give her a personality other than snarling monster, and treat her like a big deal. As far as her wrestling men, unless it's the Royal Rumble; no deal.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Nov 20, 2011 17:42:22 GMT -5
If you're gonna make her fight guys, put her in a costume plus mask so no-one can tell she's a she, then have a heel valet screw her out of a title then she transitions to the women's division by taking off the costume so she can get back at who screwed her. It wont make the matches against guys retroactively creepy, and you just established a legitimate threat in the divas division without having to suffer through Kelly Kelly matches. Just an idea. Probably bad. Think they were gonna do that with Shantelle Taylor/Taylor Wilde but either it only lasted like a week or never got off the ground.
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Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Nov 20, 2011 17:45:36 GMT -5
If you're gonna make her fight guys, put her in a costume plus mask so no-one can tell she's a she, then have a heel valet screw her out of a title then she transitions to the women's division by taking off the costume so she can get back at who screwed her. It wont make the matches against guys retroactively creepy, and you just established a legitimate threat in the divas division without having to suffer through Kelly Kelly matches. Just an idea. Probably bad. Think they were gonna do that with Shantelle Taylor/Taylor Wilde but either it only lasted like a week or never got off the ground. Yeah I remember reading that she beat Jamie Noble in a dark match once. I'd actually kinda like to see that.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Nov 20, 2011 17:54:15 GMT -5
If Vince McMahon thought Francine was too "ugly" to be featured on TV regularly, then he'd probably think the same about Del Ray. Hell, according to XPac, WWE didn't want Faby Apache after he put in the word for her because she's too "bottom heavy", and she's not any bigger than Del Rey. Okay, what's the deal with WWE's beef with big-bottomed women? That's so not cool.
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Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Nov 20, 2011 17:55:43 GMT -5
If Vince McMahon thought Francine was too "ugly" to be featured on TV regularly, then he'd probably think the same about Del Ray. Hell, according to XPac, WWE didn't want Faby Apache after he put in the word for her because she's too "bottom heavy", and she's not any bigger than Del Rey. Okay, what's the deal with WWE's beef with big-bottomed women? That's so not cool. Vince could learn a thing or two from Spinal Tap.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 17:58:08 GMT -5
Okay, what's the deal with WWE's beef with big-bottomed women? That's so not cool. Vince could learn a thing or two from Spinal Tap. I'm sure he'll get around to watching it a month from now. Then we'll have Hornswoggle knock down a miniature Stonehenge to Wade Barrett's dismay.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Nov 20, 2011 18:02:13 GMT -5
Vince could learn a thing or two from Spinal Tap. I'm sure he'll get around to watching it a month from now. Then we'll have Hornswoggle knock down a miniature Stonehenge to Wade Barrett's dismay. I don't care how awful it'd be, I'd mark hard.
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Post by "I'm Batman..." on Nov 20, 2011 18:13:13 GMT -5
i don't care as long as i get to see more SDR on tv.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 20, 2011 18:22:51 GMT -5
Have her debut by piledriving Michael Cole into the announce table.
Instant overness.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Nov 20, 2011 18:26:55 GMT -5
Just for posterity, a "mixed match" wouldn't be something like Gina Carano versus Anderson Silva, if only for the fact that the weight difference would be gigantic. Did the research; believably they could do a match-up between the two #1 fighters of the Featherweight division - Cris "Cyborg" Santos and Jose Aldo. They're pretty much in the same place as far as ranking and they're practically the same weight. There is absolutely no reason why two well-trained 145# fighters with the same body fat percent should have anything but a highly competitive match. I don't know enough about MMA to know whether upper body strength beats lower body strength in general, but presumably "well-trained" involves working within your personal assets. Feminism is about sex equality, not women being better then men or anything or women just being mad at men. "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is" - Yogi Berra. Your definition is off by one key phrase: Feminism is about achieving sex equality by focusing solely by elevating the status of women. In the time when women couldn't even vote, when they weren't even seen as human beings, of course this twist meant virtually nothing.. but now, women have achieved so close to equality in Western culture that the "twist" starts to make a big difference. Of the sexist institution that still exist in Western culture, a non-trivial number of them work in women's favor. How do you correct these by focusing solely on elevating the status of women? What pro-woman legislation, pro-woman affirmative action or pro-woman quota will ensure women get "equal time for equal crime"? There's feminism, and there's egalitarianism, and in today's culture, the two are no longer synonymous. Maybe a century ago, maybe half a century ago. But not today, not here, not now. I'll elaborate more when I'm off my phone but my definition of feminism was worded pretty close to that on webster's dictionary. I look on Wikipedia first but that site gets a negative response if you use it. So I just went to the first sourced site, and it was webster's dictionary.
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