skulldouggory
Unicron
Needs More Shirtless Barry Windham
Posts: 2,535
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Post by skulldouggory on Jan 15, 2012 2:11:54 GMT -5
Did he really think he would get off without any sort of heat whatsoever? I mean, it is THE UNDERTAKER. Not some Heat or Velocity jobber he's doing that to. Good lord Matt Hardy is a dumbass. That's not the first time that happened. Ever listen to his shoot where he talks about how he always fought with Finlay? Finlay was down on him after SS 02 when he cut that crap heel promo and told him he "didn't know how to be a heel" and wanted him to come work out with him on a weekend and run the ropes. He also was tired of Matt always arguing with him over Lita's wrestling (Finlay was her trainer, and actually responsible for improving her mat work from 03-04) Instead of taking the advice of a veteran and great wrestler, Matt blew him off then bitched and moaned about the Laurinitis bringing him in and forcing him to apologize to Finlay for letting the veteran talent wait around all day for him to come train so they could work out together. He took everything so personally, when it seemed like Finlay was actually going out of his way to help him improve as a wrestler. That fight was one of the reasons Matt cited for him getting fired back in 2005. It's stuff like that, which makes me feel like a real dumb mark during 2005 when i legit hated Edge and Lita for what they did. It's been proven how much of an ass Matt is by stories from Paul London and even his own self-demotion on the net. I really feel for Lita in what she must of gone through in her relationship with the guy. No wonder they had Edge beat the crap out of him during their feud. It may look to the untrained eye that the WWE screwed up a feud with not making Matt the superstar, but they did the right thing in my eyes which was hiring Matt to have an Instant mega heat feud and put Edge over like a king because Edge is the guy who has the future and passion to be the company's it heel for the next 5 years. |
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Post by nickcave on Jan 15, 2012 2:27:04 GMT -5
Matt's ego astounds me, the only time he's shown any time of charisma at all was when he was Version 1 in a feud with Rey Mysterio. Never have I seen an ego on someone with so little to his credit.
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Post by norsisclouds on Jan 15, 2012 4:02:01 GMT -5
It's stuff like that, which makes me feel like a real dumb mark during 2005 when i legit hated Edge and Lita for what they did. It's been proven how much of an ass Matt is by stories from Paul London and even his own self-demotion on the net. I really feel for Lita in what she must of gone through in her relationship with the guy. No wonder they had Edge beat the crap out of him during their feud. It may look to the untrained eye that the WWE screwed up a feud with not making Matt the superstar, but they did the right thing in my eyes which was hiring Matt to have an Instant mega heat feud and put Edge over like a king because Edge is the guy who has the future and passion to be the company's it heel for the next 5 years. Well, you weren't really alone in this...near everyone in the IWC felt that way. It turned out Laurinitis was "holding him back" because he was always arguing and fighting with him. He talked so much about how Laurinitis was a WCW guy and he was a loyal WWE guy--but you didn't hear about other wrestlers fighting with the man that Vince would eventually trust to be the head of talent relations. He also went on about how he would always get punished when Lita or Jeff did something wrong-instead of considering the possibility that he was getting punished because unlike Lita or Jeff, he'd mouth off about something he disagreed with... I'm not saying Laurinitis is perfect--I mean look at the divas--but Matt just wasn't smart. He was a full on mark for himself to the extreme. (No pun intended) |
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Jan 15, 2012 8:45:02 GMT -5
I'm not saying Laurinitis is perfect--I mean look at the divas--but Matt just wasn't smart. He was a full on mark for himself to the extreme. (No pun intended) He still is a mark for himself. About the Lita/Edge/Matt triangle, weren't there reports that Matt cheated on Lita? And that's why most wrestlers weren't taking shots at Lita and Edge, and saying there's more to the story? Matt is the poster child for this. - He blabs backstage business, which affects him, Lita, Edge, and Kane. So because of Matt blabbing it, a storyline and Lita as a face is shot. - He returns and gives that great promo, which shot any main event chance down the tubes. - He bails on taking a chokeslam from Taker, because it wouldn't fit his character. It fit for guys like Hogan, Austin, Vince, Trips, Rock, Foley, Cena, Angle, Kane, Orton, Lesnar, Big Show, HBK, and Jeff Hardy, but somehow not Matt. - He climbs back up, and then gets unmotivated to a level that not even Samoa Joe has come close to reaching. Matt surpasses everyone when it comes to this. Matt's probably in the company of never returning to WWE. I can see the WWE bringing back RVD and even Jeff, but not Matt. His antics in WWE, his run in TNA, and the fake suicide note, all lead me to think he's completely radioactive in the eyes of the WWE, and they're not going to touch him again. |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jan 15, 2012 10:26:12 GMT -5
/\ well I've always said that shit settles at the bottom.
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TheDieselTrain
Fry's dog Seymour
Chicks Dig Hootie.
Is Stone Cold gonna have to smack a bitch?? WHAT!!!?????
Posts: 23,724
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Jan 15, 2012 10:31:15 GMT -5
I forgot about Shelton. Pure in-ring talent, one of the best. But could not cut a promo to save his life. I have a defense against that. I loved his promo on ECW where he talked about fools gold and how he was the gold standard. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2012 11:34:29 GMT -5
I don't understand the "Morrison never really got a push" viewpoint. From the moment he and Miz were split up in April 2009 through the end of 2010, he had an IC title run with several televised successful defenses, a few title shots, a match for the No. 1 contender spot, a KotR run to the finals and, IIRC, was co-holder of the unified tag titles with R-Truth for a spell. That's a lot of exposure. I believe had he devoted himself at some point earlier to improving his mic skills he could have parlayed (or parkoured) that into a push into long-term main event status. But he couldn't really get over because despite a few nice spot monkey moments he never defined his character or mastered the mic skills necessary. You can't go through a span of some 18 months described above and say the guy didn't have a chance. I can't tell you when, but I remember two distinct times in that time period where he got to do guest commentary to build up an upcoming match ... and barely said a word. And when he did, he projected no confidence and made no sense. But when CM Punk was out for a while and put on commentary, I think that was when his character took off in the direction of the main event run he eventually got. Same for others. Take a look at Dolph Ziggler and Cody Rhodes long-term and compare what they were given and what they have done with it to Morrison's lack of improvement. Creative gave Dolph a ridiculous name and made it worse with a "My Name Is ..." gimmick. He made the most of it, at least got himself noticed, and slowly but surely built his character over time by make the most of every situation. Cody Rhodes got to be the third wheel in Legacy -- a small stable mainly created to let Randy Orton take less bumps when he was coming back from injury and to push Million Dollar Baby Dibiase. And yet Cody works it and works it and comes out ahead of TD Jr. And then he got the horrible "Narcissist" gimmick and spun pure gold out of it. Morrison has no one to blame for himself for not ever taking the big step. So many others have done so much more with so much less. But here's the thing: Morrison had the rug pulled out from him every time he got seriously over, i.e. on Smackdown in the middle of the Punk/Hardy feud (getting fed to D-Mac) or the Miz feud (he never seemed to beat Miz...ever) or the Truth feud (he gets the final win over Truth far too late in the feud after losing clean several times before). However, I'll agree he didn't use his opportunities well, and here's why: he never gave to the adult male demographic any reason why they should like him. He never defined his character in any way that suggested that they might like him, and to the contrary, there were a lot of reasons to not like him. A guy who's in phenomenal shape, an incredible athlete, dresses flamboyantly, gets all the ladies (gorgeous girlfriend and legions of swooning female fans) but he speaks like he's never interacted with another human being before. All that he has and he comes off as a total wuss with no speaking ability. And no, I don't want to hear that his original "Morrison" character up to the Dirtsheet-era is proof that he could speak, because all he had to do was talk in non-sequiturs. If I go out to a crowd and yell out "Fish cupcakes are from JUPITER!" does that mean that I'm a good talker? He had no idea how to harness crowds. And so we get a guy who, technically sound as he is (one of the best wrestlers in the whole company) turns to jumping around like a lemur because that's the only way he'll get noticed. |
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Jan 15, 2012 12:17:48 GMT -5
I don't understand the "Morrison never really got a push" viewpoint. From the moment he and Miz were split up in April 2009 through the end of 2010, he had an IC title run with several televised successful defenses, a few title shots, a match for the No. 1 contender spot, a KotR run to the finals and, IIRC, was co-holder of the unified tag titles with R-Truth for a spell. That's a lot of exposure. I believe had he devoted himself at some point earlier to improving his mic skills he could have parlayed (or parkoured) that into a push into long-term main event status. But he couldn't really get over because despite a few nice spot monkey moments he never defined his character or mastered the mic skills necessary. You can't go through a span of some 18 months described above and say the guy didn't have a chance. I can't tell you when, but I remember two distinct times in that time period where he got to do guest commentary to build up an upcoming match ... and barely said a word. And when he did, he projected no confidence and made no sense. But when CM Punk was out for a while and put on commentary, I think that was when his character took off in the direction of the main event run he eventually got. Same for others. Take a look at Dolph Ziggler and Cody Rhodes long-term and compare what they were given and what they have done with it to Morrison's lack of improvement. Creative gave Dolph a ridiculous name and made it worse with a "My Name Is ..." gimmick. He made the most of it, at least got himself noticed, and slowly but surely built his character over time by make the most of every situation. Cody Rhodes got to be the third wheel in Legacy -- a small stable mainly created to let Randy Orton take less bumps when he was coming back from injury and to push Million Dollar Baby Dibiase. And yet Cody works it and works it and comes out ahead of TD Jr. And then he got the horrible "Narcissist" gimmick and spun pure gold out of it. Morrison has no one to blame for himself for not ever taking the big step. So many others have done so much more with so much less. But here's the thing: Morrison had the rug pulled out from him every time he got seriously over, i.e. on Smackdown in the middle of the Punk/Hardy feud (getting fed to D-Mac) or the Miz feud (he never seemed to beat Miz...ever) or the Truth feud (he gets the final win over Truth far too late in the feud after losing clean several times before). However, I'll agree he didn't use his opportunities well, and here's why: he never gave to the adult male demographic any reason why they should like him. He never defined his character in any way that suggested that they might like him, and to the contrary, there were a lot of reasons to not like him. A guy who's in phenomenal shape, an incredible athlete, dresses flamboyantly, gets all the ladies (gorgeous girlfriend and legions of swooning female fans) but he speaks like he's never interacted with another human being before. All that he has and he comes off as a total wuss with no speaking ability. And no, I don't want to hear that his original "Morrison" character up to the Dirtsheet-era is proof that he could speak, because all he had to do was talk in non-sequiturs. If I go out to a crowd and yell out "Fish cupcakes are from JUPITER!" does that mean that I'm a good talker? He had no idea how to harness crowds. And so we get a guy who, technically sound as he is (one of the best wrestlers in the whole company) turns to jumping around like a lemur because that's the only way he'll get noticed. Well said |
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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 15, 2012 12:32:16 GMT -5
I'll echo all of the comments on Matt here, but truth be told I don't think there was ever a huge pooch for him to screw. As in his push was fool's good from the start that was designed to get Edge over and not him.
Sadly, as big of an RVD fan as I am I have to go with him. In fact he is the most glaring because he basically wrecked about 3 different pushes for a variety of reasons. He got a massive push initially during the Alliance angle, but his tendency to work stiff and bust people open during matches led to guys like Angle (maybe even Jericho) complaining and his push as derailed. Then in 2002 he was still kind of in the main event mix until the Elimination Chamber where he damn near killed HHH, so his push was REALLY derailed then and he found himself in a tag team with Kane (and then jobbing to Kane).
Of course there is also the whole 2006 pot arrest, which is the ne plus ultra of someone tanking a huge push. In the history of wrestling I don't think we'll ever again see a guy who is the reigning WWE champion and the centerpiece of an entirely new show (ECW) get caught with drugs and basically have his WWE career ruined. Even if I think WWE wildly overreacted to a nothing story, this is the gold standard of a guy wrecking a push. It's the wrestling equivalent of Lee Tracy urinating on the Mexican army and getting fired by MGM in 1934.
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Post by laker8kiss on Jan 15, 2012 13:42:48 GMT -5
How about old school
Ultimate Warrior
Jake The Snake Roberts
Buff Bagwell
Psycho Sid
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Jan 15, 2012 14:47:49 GMT -5
^
Ultimate Warrior is a good call. He had the entire machine behind him in a way only guys like Hogan and SCSA and Rock and Savage ever have had, and pissed it away.
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The QC Loser
Hank Scorpio
Come on follow my Twitter I'm cool!
Posts: 6,241
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Post by The QC Loser on Jan 15, 2012 16:19:56 GMT -5
I don't know how well it would of done but I really think giving Morrison a Shawn Michaels type heel gimmick would of helped a lot. A cocky sexy young guy that had most of the women drooling over him could of easily had the men in the crowd hating him. I would think even with almost no mic skills that gimmick wouldn't be hard to pull off. Just go out and talk about how much better you are than all the guys in the crowd and so on so forth.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 15, 2012 18:01:41 GMT -5
^ Ultimate Warrior is a good call. He had the entire machine behind him in a way only guys like Hogan and SCSA and Rock and Savage ever have had, and pissed it away. I think Warrior's biggest roadblock against becoming the next Hogan was WWF not giving him a major monster heel to overcome during his world title reign, like the ones Hogan had in King Kong Bundy and Andre. It's his massive ego and self-righteous soapboxing over the years that's really soured people on him. |
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Post by norsisclouds on Jan 15, 2012 18:12:48 GMT -5
He still is a mark for himself. About the Lita/Edge/Matt triangle, weren't there reports that Matt cheated on Lita? And that's why most wrestlers weren't taking shots at Lita and Edge, and saying there's more to the story? Matt is the poster child for this. - He blabs backstage business, which affects him, Lita, Edge, and Kane. So because of Matt blabbing it, a storyline and Lita as a face is shot. Yes, it was John Cena (of all people!) who gave an interview where he publicly implied that Matt was sleeping with other women behind Lita's back and that there was "another side to the story". Then it was Matt who later admitted it. As for blabbing things--I think Alvarez even suspected that Matt was the one who started leaking information about Punk's relationship with Lita in the dirtsheets in the first place, and his later crazy YouTube videos pretty much confirmed this because he couldn't shut up about them. He also went out of his way to drag Christian down with him when he was criticizing the WWE back in 2010 for never pushing him. He lacked tack. That was one thing I could agree with Lita on, when you don't get what you want "you don't kick and scream like a baby" to get it on-line, you work something out with the office that they are "cool with." and then he got butt hurt over that constructive criticism too. With Matt it's just kind of been a systemic series of problems that sabotauged his push--I don't think it was ever just one thing. But I *do* have to admit that it's possible the office never really wanted him to make main event anyway so he did them a favor by always f***ing up. |
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Post by usemeplease on Jan 15, 2012 20:07:46 GMT -5
It can be argued that Matt Hardy's failures are not entirely his fault. I'd say about 30% creative's fault and 70% Matt's. I'll break it down: Things Matt is Arguably Responsible for:-backstage issues, fights with other wrestlers and creative agents like John Laurinitis and Finlay -embarrassing the company publicly and costing them $$ leading to his firing the first time -horrible return promo -turning down TNA for a company where the boss' son in law claimed he "never drew any money" -ran out on the Undertaker's return to avoid getting chokeslammed, because it might "hurt his character" getting backstage heat from the rest of the lockerroom as a result -fighting with other wrestlers over girlfriends -developing problems with drug dependency, alcohol and a deteriorating physical condition and refusing to take responsibility for said problems. Things Creative is responsible for:-Making him feel he has to work through several career threatening injuries -Pushing his girlfriend and friend over him, even before the scandal broke (he moved to RAW for Lita who was seen as too important to put over on SD!--essentially the company decided his girlfriend was more important than he was) -burying him on SD! for 2 years before letting him feud with MVP -Not seeing him as a valuable main event player, but part of this could be the cause of his behavior -Reportedly taking story ideas away from him and giving them to other main event stars ie. Edge, Triple H My take on the creative side: ~ One of Matt's "life threatening injuries" (weaken abdominal muscle)were there for awhile. Shane Helms confirm this. Matt could had went to TNA before 2011 or stayed with ROH, and had a easier schedule for his body to heal. But, instead, he went back to the WWE. ~WWE is a male dominate company. Matt moving to RAW for Lita made the guys backstage see Matt as a pussy. ~The SD burial may have been punishment for him "jumping ship" to RAW to join his girlfriend. ~Bad promos + so-so in-ring talent = mid-card purgatory, if you are lucky. Also, whining on the Internet DID NOT help at all. ~Matt pretty much screw himself by not living up to the expectations during his post-affair feud with Edge. Matt could have been the ultimate babyface victim, but instead Matt "screwed the pooch". |
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Post by norsisclouds on Jan 16, 2012 12:46:35 GMT -5
Matt confirmed that in an interview. They had him jobbing when they found out he wanted to go to RAW and then they dumped him on Heat when he got over to RAW after they broke his character up from Lita's. He claimed they buried her too--but she went right into a storyline with Trish feuding with Chris Jericho and Christian...so...
I doubt it.
They probably didn't think too much of him leaving his push on SD for his girlfriend, which is messed up--but the idea that they would not let Lita leave RAW in the first place, which pays more and is considered their "premiere" show was a big red flag.
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Post by usemeplease on Jan 16, 2012 15:06:25 GMT -5
Oh God. OK I retract my somewhat defense. I forgot how horrible that was. Yikes...from the pronunciation to the delivery--the long ramble in the middle--it was like he didn't plan anything out, got there, s*** on the mic and then tried to save it with "I hope you die in a CAR ACCIDENT" and the crowd started booing him. Oh man--and Matt nearly died in a car accident the week he was fired in '05!There's all kinds of wrong with that. Actually, it was Shannon Moore that was in the car accident. The accident occurred on March 21, 2005 and Shannon was released July 5, 2005. Matt was an a**hole for saying that to Edge after Shannon's car accident. Plus, Matt used Shannon's car accident as a cover for the tire slashing incident. |
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,162 
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 16, 2012 15:59:00 GMT -5
I think it was Survivor Series 05. Matt was in the under mid card but he was on a winning streak on Smackdown. Undertaker made his big return during a match involving Matt and some other midcard jobbers. Everyone in the ring was supposed to take a chokeslam from the Undertaker. If you search for it and watch the video, you'll notice Matt slip out of the ring and go to the back to avoid getting slammed. Soon it leaked that he got heat from Undertaker and was yelled at for not taking the bump because he thought he was "more important than the rest of the roster" and started jobbing for the next year until they let him do his program with MVP. Matt gave an interview afterwards where he said it was made into a bigger deal than it was--but it was one of the most obvious examples of him being a mark for himself early on...aside from going back to WWE in the first place. Did he really think he would get off without any sort of heat whatsoever? I mean, it is THE UNDERTAKER. Not some Heat or Velocity jobber he's doing that to. Good lord Matt Hardy is a dumbass. And keep in mind this one little thing. MATT HARDY WAS GIVEN TWO CONSECUTIVE VICTORIES OVER THE UNDERTAKER AT THE START OF HIS V1 GIMMICK. Why in the hell didn't he think he'd have to give Taker his heat back? I came in here to say Kennedy and Carlito, and they certainly did, but, yeah. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2012 16:52:33 GMT -5
If it's been mentioned, ignore me, but a lot of people cite poor promo skills.
a good booker would work around such limits if they really had it in mind to push a guy. You play to the wrestlers' strengths.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Jan 16, 2012 16:56:55 GMT -5
And a guy who really wants to be at the top should know how to speak in front of a live crowd. In most cases, that should be expected of a main event level talent.
That's what I think really held guys like John Morrison and Shelton Benjamin back. Athletic, but couldn't cut a promo to save their lives. Guys like Randy Orton and Jeff Hardy may not exactly be The Rock, but I've never found any of their promos as cringeworthy as Morrison's.
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