Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,050
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 5, 2013 3:16:49 GMT -5
^Is there really a difference? While all of those guys were incredible workers, their claim to fame was mostly their silly skits and promos. DX made their name through silly segments. Chris Jericho and The Rock were the Insult Comics who tore down their opponents with nonsensical insults, and are the prototypes for the "wisecracking comedian face" that WWE currently pegs all of its good guys into. Kurt Angle, while a skilled wrestler, was a huge dork on the mic for the first few years of his run. Yup, I'd say there is. The main eventers of DX got there before adding the comedy, HBK was a longstanding main eventer, and Hunter didn't hit the top until he got serious. Kurt Angle was a goof, but he'd also break your freaking ankle, him and Jericho had the in-ring skills so you took them seriously once the bell rang, they could hurt you. The Rock... he's just one in a million, he's like Hogan, he had the charisma to make pretty much anything work once they let him loose, and as you say, he was an insult comic. On the mic he was vicious to people, you'd laugh but you took what he was saying seriously. Zack doesn't have the other edge to him.
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 5, 2013 3:24:52 GMT -5
Um, why does everyone seem to think that Zack Ryder has the power to change his gimmick and end up with the new one on TV?
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Jan 5, 2013 4:12:49 GMT -5
Not sad. Just frustrated.
Understandably so.
|
|
|
Post by cahuette on Jan 5, 2013 4:40:55 GMT -5
I don't see how it's sad, he got popular by complaining about not getting a chance, he worked for it and got his chance, as much as some people think he was terrible, he was incredibly over, did they help him hide his flaws(they're doing this right now, and it's not the first time they did that for a wrestler),? No, they ruined his long awaited USA title reign incredibly fast, and then they gave him the role of Cena's -special- little brother, who couldn't do anything, I liked Zack Ryder, they gave me "That guy that will play a make a wish kid for Cena because we can't use them in an actual storyline", and then he went back to not being on TV. The WWE ruined him, even if I really don't think that's what they wanted, they're just terrible sometimes, so if he wants to whine forever, I won't mind, because I think he's right.
|
|
|
Post by CourtesyFlush on Jan 5, 2013 5:28:29 GMT -5
Ryder seems like a really cool guy! Just keep him on WWE Superstars so I don't have to see him!
|
|
|
Post by KobashiChop on Jan 5, 2013 6:13:53 GMT -5
I think the burial he took in January to March has irreparably destroyed his attitude towards the company. They took one of the biggest WWF/E fans in the company, and turned him into a bitter whiner who is willing to chew out the company immaturely on social media. Im not siding with him, but you cant even make the argument that the WWE were throwing something at him to see how he handles it.
Not even Daniel Bryan or Triple H could survive that kind of booking. IIRC,
-He gets completely and utterly rejected by a girl who admits to stringing him on through a time where this puts him in a wheelchair, and then thrown off the stage.
-Girl then tags along with him at Mania only to cost him the match and then kick him in the balls in a heel turn that Stevie Wonder could see coming.
-He turns on Cena, who denies and is absolved of any wrong doing in the kiss (We all saw it, Cena) and just looks like the most pathetic little bitch, in spite of the fact that he wasnt even dating Eve, so it doesnt even make sense for him to be angry at Cena.
-HE GETS NO RETRIBUTION FOR ANY OF THIS.
-Drops straight off the face of Raw, only making sporadic appearances.
I dont agree with the way hes gone about it, but I refuse to hold it against him. It was petty and vindictive booking from what has been proven over and over again to be a petty and vindictive booking team. I couldnt believe a guy who had gotten that over (WE WANT RYDER chants through the Ziggler/Morrison match at MSG during Survivor Series and HUGE pop for the run in) got completely crucified the way he did.
|
|
|
Post by B'Cup x on Jan 5, 2013 6:24:44 GMT -5
^Is there really a difference? While all of those guys were incredible workers, their claim to fame was mostly their silly skits and promos. DX made their name through silly segments. Chris Jericho and The Rock were the Insult Comics who tore down their opponents with nonsensical insults, and are the prototypes for the "wisecracking comedian face" that WWE currently pegs all of its good guys into. Kurt Angle, while a skilled wrestler, was a huge dork on the mic for the first few years of his run. If these guys weren't funny, I don't think the fans would've ever initially cared about them enough to see them as serious contenders. there is a HUGE differnce. those guys made jokes whereas Zack Ryder is the joke. He has never been shown as a legit threat and likely never will. someone compared him to a meme earlier in this thread and thats something I was claiming back in 2011. Zack Ryder didnt get over because he was cool, Zack Ryder got over because liking him was cool x
|
|
|
Post by BiloxiParish on Jan 5, 2013 7:00:20 GMT -5
I never understood why liking him was cool to begin with. His whole gimmick seemed to be based off the damn Jersey Shore show and was based on that wave of success. I found him annoying at best and not good annoying. His in ring work never captured me nor his mic schools. WWE put the strap on him to shut up fans for a bit but knew he could never go beyond that. There is probably some other whining stuff he did to the WWE we don't recall
|
|
|
Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 5, 2013 7:07:10 GMT -5
His whole gimmick seemed to be based off the damn Jersey Shore show and was based on that wave of success. While it may have been tweaked later on to take some mannerisms from there into account, the actual birth of the gimmick (outside of the Dirt Sheet) in ECW in May 2009 pre-dates the Jersey Shore show by a good 7 months.
|
|
|
Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 5, 2013 7:38:22 GMT -5
I think the burial he took in January to March has irreparably destroyed his attitude towards the company. They took one of the biggest WWF/E fans in the company, and turned him into a bitter whiner who is willing to chew out the company immaturely on social media. Im not siding with him, but you cant even make the argument that the WWE were throwing something at him to see how he handles it. Not even Daniel Bryan or Triple H could survive that kind of booking. IIRC, -He gets completely and utterly rejected by a girl who admits to stringing him on through a time where this puts him in a wheelchair, and then thrown off the stage. -Girl then tags along with him at Mania only to cost him the match and then kick him in the balls in a heel turn that Stevie Wonder could see coming. -He turns on Cena, who denies and is absolved of any wrong doing in the kiss (We all saw it, Cena) and just looks like the most pathetic little bitch, in spite of the fact that he wasnt even dating Eve, so it doesnt even make sense for him to be angry at Cena. -HE GETS NO RETRIBUTION FOR ANY OF THIS. -Drops straight off the face of Raw, only making sporadic appearances. I dont agree with the way hes gone about it, but I refuse to hold it against him. It was petty and vindictive booking from what has been proven over and over again to be a petty and vindictive booking team. I couldnt believe a guy who had gotten that over (WE WANT RYDER chants through the Ziggler/Morrison match at MSG during Survivor Series and HUGE pop for the run in) got completely crucified the way he did. If he could act then maybe he'd have looked better. That's why William Regal with the Sheamus/Big Show stuff came out looking fine because he was capable of selling the story. Ryder just looked like an idiot who deserved everything
|
|
|
Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 5, 2013 7:44:55 GMT -5
He's hoping by complaining about his current spot in WWE will help rekindled the support he got from the net. Zack got massive support online by begging to be on Raw. Then he used that to parley it into a US title run. Once he got connected with Cena, people assumed that was going to lead him to the Promised Land. But he got exposed with the camera and mic time that comes with the main event slot. Then his fan support, while still good, starts to dwindle. Remember how the Z! True Long Island Story threads used to be multiple pages? Now it's good to get 20 responses. Ryder's new plan is to complain about his current booking to regain the supporters who left him once he got regular tv time. Problem with that is he's coming off like Matt Hardy and that is taking away even more support from his cause.
|
|
|
Post by B'Cup x on Jan 5, 2013 8:59:43 GMT -5
I never understood why liking him was cool to begin with. His whole gimmick seemed to be based off the damn Jersey Shore show and was based on that wave of success. I found him annoying at best and not good annoying. His in ring work never captured me nor his mic schools. WWE put the strap on him to shut up fans for a bit but knew he could never go beyond that. There is probably some other whining stuff he did to the WWE we don't recall because he wasnt on TV. you had to go out your way to find him which caused him to be alternative and people like to jump on that bandwagon so they can act all elite with their 'non-mainstream' opinions. my tongue is only partly in my cheek x
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,294
|
Post by The Ichi on Jan 5, 2013 9:08:44 GMT -5
^Is there really a difference? While all of those guys were incredible workers, their claim to fame was mostly their silly skits and promos. DX made their name through silly segments. Chris Jericho and The Rock were the Insult Comics who tore down their opponents with nonsensical insults, and are the prototypes for the "wisecracking comedian face" that WWE currently pegs all of its good guys into. Kurt Angle, while a skilled wrestler, was a huge dork on the mic for the first few years of his run. If these guys weren't funny, I don't think the fans would've ever initially cared about them enough to see them as serious contenders. Thing is, all those guys in that pic had range and could do serious at the drop of a hat. Zack Ryder can't.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Jan 5, 2013 11:11:31 GMT -5
I don't see how it's sad, he got popular by complaining about not getting a chance, he worked for it and got his chance, as much as some people think he was terrible, he was incredibly over, did they help him hide his flaws(they're doing this right now, and it's not the first time they did that for a wrestler),? No, they ruined his long awaited USA title reign incredibly fast, and then they gave him the role of Cena's -special- little brother, who couldn't do anything, I liked Zack Ryder, they gave me "That guy that will play a make a wish kid for Cena because we can't use them in an actual storyline", and then he went back to not being on TV. The WWE ruined him, even if I really don't think that's what they wanted, they're just terrible sometimes, so if he wants to whine forever, I won't mind, because I think he's right. Thing is, people talk about hiding the weaknesses a lot, but sometimes you just can't. If you're a comedy talker, catchphrase-based gimmick, you really need to be charismatic to make it work. Rock, DX, Jericho, Road Dogg, they were all brilliant on the mic, so being based on catchphrases and telling jokes works (not to mention the aforementioned range). Even Santino, a pure comedy character, works because he can deliver on the mic. Zack Ryder's weakness, though, is his mic skills. It showed every time he got handed a mic during his shot, what worked on the internet with editing and control was just weak live. For that gimmick, that he built, he's not good enough for it yet. You can talk about hiding the weaknesses, but it just doesn't work if the weakness point is supposed to be the gimmick's strength. If someone comes in as a wrestling god and is awful, you can't hide that. Likewise, Ryder built his gimmick on charisma, and he couldn't do it live. He was over because he was the underdog who never got the chance. He got a chance, and wasn't ready. Sometimes, it is the performer's fault.
|
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,605
|
Post by trollrogue on Jan 5, 2013 11:59:44 GMT -5
As long as people are still talking about Ryder, he's gonna be fine. And with all the new shows popping up the Internet Championship may actually turn into a real belt (it should REALLY be on NXT as a TV title that's defended on the ppv Pre-Shows on Youtube-- and also it ties into the fact that NXT is a HuluPlus show so cross-marketing built in plus an arena that Ryder could provide that's sorely lacking to NXT-- a solid mid-card that he could dominate as the fan-favorite face).
But...for some reason Ryder and the WWE are content to put him in the role of star-jobber. *shrugs* somebody has to do it and unlike The Miz, Ryder isn't always ready with mic charisma or improv with celebrity guest stars (although his stuff with Hugh Jackman was pretty gold, I'll give him that-- just too far infrequent/inconsistent for a primetime playa).
|
|
klapaucius
Don Corleone
Johnny Two Times
Posts: 1,486
|
Post by klapaucius on Jan 5, 2013 12:38:03 GMT -5
Sad Ryder {Spoiler}
|
|
JTH
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 3MB
Posts: 4,467
|
Post by JTH on Jan 5, 2013 13:44:48 GMT -5
I think he meant like Santino like Comedy character. But the fact that they pushed Santino to being a last elimination in the Royal Rumble, headline story at Elimination Chamber, last elimination at Elimination Chamber; give fuel to fools like Ryder thinking that guys and characters like him can main event. If they had never pushed Santino, it would show these guys to come up with something different and fresh if you want a top spot, but instead; they push one goofy character, all of them feel they should get that spot too.
|
|
|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 5, 2013 14:05:26 GMT -5
I think he meant like Santino like Comedy character. But the fact that they pushed Santino to being a last elimination in the Royal Rumble, headline story at Elimination Chamber, last elimination at Elimination Chamber; give fuel to fools like Ryder thinking that guys and characters like him can main event. If they had never pushed Santino, it would show these guys to come up with something different and fresh if you want a top spot, but instead; they push one goofy character, all of them feel they should get that spot too. Well I think Ryder should get those same moments that Santino did No argument, Santino is a better character, and a better worker than Ryder. However, certain aspects of Santino's gimmick often dictate him to purposely hold himself back via dumbassery despite obviously having all the tools to be a World Champion. The difference between Santino and Ryder is that Ryder's matches don't tend to become one big comedy spot. While Santino is higher in the pecking order than Ryder, it would be easier for Ryder to become serious without a huge character overhaul. And Ryder has a better look, even if it's just the "generic CAW in trunks" look. Ryder is only 27 years old. He's young and can improve over time.
|
|
|
Post by molson5 on Jan 5, 2013 14:06:16 GMT -5
One of the big complaints about the WWE is that they care too much about the main eventers. But it's a tough thing to "fix" when the same fans think anyone who isn't a main eventer is worthless. I don't think Ryder's very good, but he's a relatively popular lower card guy, what's wrong with that? By definition, lower card guys are going to lose against midcarders and higher. They're not going to be in significant storylines. They're going to job a lot, maybe do some comedy, pop up as supporting players in storylines from time to time. A wrestling promotion needs guys like that, and Ryder fits that role pretty well. It's really tough to make fans care about those guys, but some fans actually care about Ryder, which is great. I just wish some fans were better at just appreciating their favorites (whether it be Ryder or Christian or whoever), without being miserable if their guy in on top. It's OK to have a favorite wrestler who's not on top.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2013 14:06:40 GMT -5
Since Ryder is a super jobber and always will be a super jobber here is my humble contribution to the thread.
Jobber's Paradise
As I walk through the curtain to the ring I take a look at my opponent and realize I'm not winning Cause I've been losing and jobbing so long, That even Tensai thinks that my heat is gone But I ain't never won against a man that was over Me defeating CM Punk you know that's unheard of You better stay away from Kane and embrace the hate Or Cena will take your woman and you'll be left to embrace the 'bate. I really hate to trip but I gotta know Against the Big Show, I see myself tossed in the front row, woo woo woo I'm the kinda Z the little jobbers wanna be like On my back every night shoulders down in the spotlight
Been spending most their lives, living in the jobbers paradise Been spending most their lives, living in the jobbers paradise Keep spending most our lives, living in the jobbers paradise Keep spending most our lives, living in the jobbers paradise
Look at the situation they got me facin' I can't have a normal career, I was raised by the internet So I gotta be down with the Gillberg set Too much television watching got me chasing dreams I'm a Youtube fool with jobbing on my mind Got a fist pump on my hand and a gleam in my eye I'm a tanned up jobber set trippin' loser And my homies is down for jobbing more than the Red Rooster, woo woo woo Pinfall ain't nothing but a heartbeat away, I'm wrestling matches, win or lose, what can I say I'm jobbing now, but will I wrestle to a win The way things are going I'll eat a pin
Tell me why are we so blind to see That the ones who job are Santino and me
Been spending most their lives, living in the jobbers paradise Been spending most their lives, living in the jobbers paradise Keep spending most our lives, living in the jobbers paradise Keep spending most our lives, living in the jobbers paradise
Power and the money, money and the power Minute after minute, hour after hour Everybody's wrestling, but half of them ain't winning Most of them are lookin', waiting to smell what the Rock is cookin' They say I gotta win, but nobody's here to lay down for me If they can't understand it, how can they book me I guess they can't, I guess they won't I guess they front, that's why I know my career is out of luck, fool
Been spending most their lives, living in the jobbers paradise Been spending most their lives, living in the jobbers paradise Keep spending most our lives, living in the jobbers paradise Keep spending most our lives, living in the jobbers paradise
Tell me why are we so blind to see That the ones who job are Santino and me
|
|