|
Post by abjordans on Jan 8, 2013 16:49:49 GMT -5
I saw the promo being aimed at how trained the audience is by WWE. They woo when Flairs name is said, they pop when they hear their hometown. It doesn't matter what context these things are used in. It's like telling your dog, "Sit, you stupid peice of crap!" They still sit even though you are insulting them. I also liked the point that was made about guys like Edge. They weren't real heels, in the end they wanted to be loved. Punk says he NEVER wants to be loved. He is a REAL bad guy, he relishes in being evil. I just thought it was good stuff. No, I don't think it defeated the purpose of the promo that I or anyone else enjoyed it.
|
|
|
Post by wrestlegamer on Jan 8, 2013 17:06:45 GMT -5
I love The Rock. But CM Punk's promo was so much better. It wasn't even close. Punk's promo sounded like it came from the heart. It made a lot of sense and it showed how dumb the "basic WWE fans" are. Most of Punk's promo went over their heads and it was kinda sad in a way.
The Rock's promo was nothing more than old catchphrases, shameless pandering, and lame "Cena-style" jokes (the announcers' forced laughter didn't help matters).
I now want to see the match more than I did 24 hours ago. And now, I want CM Punk to win.
|
|
Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
|
Post by Jimmy on Jan 8, 2013 17:08:51 GMT -5
I saw the promo being aimed at how trained the audience is by WWE. They woo when Flairs name is said, they pop when they hear their hometown. It doesn't matter what context these things are used in. It's like telling your dog, "Sit, you stupid peice of crap!" They still sit even though you are insulting them. I also liked the point that was made about guys like Edge. They weren't real heels, in the end they wanted to be loved. Punk says he NEVER wants to be loved. He is a REAL bad guy, he relishes in being evil. I just thought it was good stuff. No, I don't think it defeated the purpose of the promo that I or anyone else enjoyed it. Yeah, I got that impression too. Same as when reacted to Tyson Kidd's name getting a pop, Punk was basically saying "See? You don't give a shit about him until I mention him, and now he's your 'favorite'".
|
|
|
Post by gnr123 on Jan 8, 2013 17:36:53 GMT -5
Was I the only one who felt underwhelmed and was just waiting for The Rock to come out after 10 minutes? Seriously, what was he going for, what was the basis he was trying to get over? First, he started off by telling the fans how guys like Cena are handed stuff on a silver platter because the fans cheer them. Than he mentioned how Brodus Clay and Tyson Kidd should be pushed. Than, he talked about how the fans don't matter. Than, he talked about his title reign and how he's better than Bruno Sammartino and Hulk Hogan. Than he went back to the fans again.
It seems like he was rambling about nonsense instead of actually having a idea of what he was going to get across during the promo. He talking about 5 things in 15 minutes. And where was the "pipebomb?" All I saw was a guy out in the ring looking lost and confused about what he was trying to say. And I'm a big CM Punk fan and usually put him high on the totem pole as far as "mic skills" are concerned? But what the hell was that?
And don't get me started on The Rock's "cookie puss" and telling Punk to strip naked. Um, ok.
*Shudders*
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 17:38:09 GMT -5
What aspect of the promos made you think they were implying it was fake? Skill doesn't determine who gets pushed, therefore, the matches are predetermined. Otherwise, the talent who could pin/submit the other talent would be champion. I think you're making a jump to "therefore, the matches are predetermined." What I took away was that "title shots, career-making opportunities, etc" are all dictated not by talent, but by who the "WWE Universe" gets behind. I think you're making a leap to the predetermined thing to be honest. Just cause you're a better fighter, doesn't mean you'll necessarily get the title shots if you won't make the company money.
|
|
The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
|
Post by The Doctor on Jan 8, 2013 17:39:23 GMT -5
I love The Rock. But CM Punk's promo was so much better. It wasn't even close. Punk's promo sounded like it came from the heart. It made a lot of sense and it showed how dumb the "basic WWE fans" are. Most of Punk's promo went over their heads and it was kinda sad in a way. The Rock's promo was nothing more than old catchphrases, shameless pandering, and lame "Cena-style" jokes (the announcers' forced laughter didn't help matters). I now want to see the match more than I did 24 hours ago. And now, I want CM Punk to win. What Punk did was pandering just as much as what Rock does. Just to a different part of the audience.
|
|
|
Post by KobashiChop on Jan 8, 2013 17:40:30 GMT -5
Punk really NAILED it. Just a phenomenal fire in the guy. He is just their MVP sometimes.
|
|
|
Post by Cela on Jan 8, 2013 17:48:14 GMT -5
Skill doesn't determine who gets pushed, therefore, the matches are predetermined. Otherwise, the talent who could pin/submit the other talent would be champion. I think you're making a jump to "therefore, the matches are predetermined." What I took away was that "title shots, career-making opportunities, etc" are all dictated not by talent, but by who the "WWE Universe" gets behind. I think you're making a leap to the predetermined thing to be honest. Just cause you're a better fighter, doesn't mean you'll necessarily get the title shots if you won't make the company money. If you're a better fighter, why do you lose? Title shots or no, why would anyone with better fighting ability lose to someone inferior.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 17:51:15 GMT -5
I think you're making a jump to "therefore, the matches are predetermined." What I took away was that "title shots, career-making opportunities, etc" are all dictated not by talent, but by who the "WWE Universe" gets behind. I think you're making a leap to the predetermined thing to be honest. Just cause you're a better fighter, doesn't mean you'll necessarily get the title shots if you won't make the company money. If you're a better fighter, why do you lose? Title shots or no, why would anyone with better fighting ability lose to someone inferior. I think you're missing the fundamental point about how it's not about winning/losing - it's about opportunities. If you were the better fighter, you wouldn't lose. But when Cena loses - he gets title shot after title shot after title shot after title shot. When guys like Kidd lose, they get pushed to the back of the line.
|
|
|
Post by wrestlegamer on Jan 8, 2013 17:56:19 GMT -5
I love The Rock. But CM Punk's promo was so much better. It wasn't even close. Punk's promo sounded like it came from the heart. It made a lot of sense and it showed how dumb the "basic WWE fans" are. Most of Punk's promo went over their heads and it was kinda sad in a way. The Rock's promo was nothing more than old catchphrases, shameless pandering, and lame "Cena-style" jokes (the announcers' forced laughter didn't help matters). I now want to see the match more than I did 24 hours ago. And now, I want CM Punk to win. What Punk did was pandering just as much as what Rock does. Just to a different part of the audience. I don't think so. I believe it was just a very smart promo.
|
|
|
Post by wrestling4ever on Jan 8, 2013 17:57:12 GMT -5
I love The Rock. But CM Punk's promo was so much better. It wasn't even close. Punk's promo sounded like it came from the heart. It made a lot of sense and it showed how dumb the "basic WWE fans" are. Most of Punk's promo went over their heads and it was kinda sad in a way. The Rock's promo was nothing more than old catchphrases, shameless pandering, and lame "Cena-style" jokes (the announcers' forced laughter didn't help matters). I now want to see the match more than I did 24 hours ago. And now, I want CM Punk to win. What Punk did was pandering just as much as what Rock does. Just to a different part of the audience. Yep and to me thats what makes it so great.
|
|
Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
|
Post by Arrow on Jan 8, 2013 18:01:40 GMT -5
What Punk did was pandering just as much as what Rock does. Just to a different part of the audience. I don't think so. I believe it was just a very smart promo. I'll have to watch again to point out the specifics without paraphrasing, but there were several things in his promo meant to catch the attention of the "smark" demographic of the fanbase, same as the original "pipebomb" promo. One could really argue that CM Punk is WWE's answer to the stereotypical IWC, given that he's panders to them all the time.
|
|
|
Post by wrestlegamer on Jan 8, 2013 18:18:26 GMT -5
Well, I don't really consider myself a typical member of the IWC as I like wrestlers that most of the IWC despises (Hogan, Nash, and others) and I really enjoyed Punk's promo. I thought that it was a really well done promo that used a different tone from what we've used to hearing. If Punk was doing some pandering (which would be weird considering that he's a heel), he did it in a really subtle way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 18:22:37 GMT -5
I don't think so. I believe it was just a very smart promo. One could really argue that CM Punk is WWE's answer to the stereotypical IWC, given that he's panders to them all the time. haha! What? I mean ... how do you even figure that? If that's the case then the IWC is MUCH bigger than I ever imagined cause his fanbase during his face run was bigger than a few "geeks on the 'net"
|
|
Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
|
Post by Arrow on Jan 8, 2013 18:26:31 GMT -5
haha! What? I mean ... how do you even figure that? If that's the case then the IWC is MUCH bigger than I ever imagined cause his fanbase during his face run was bigger than a few "geeks on the 'net" Seriously, did you even read my post? When did I ever say that only the IWC liked Punk? I said Punk panders to that part of the fanbase, just like Cena panders to kids, Rock to nostalgic Attitude Era fans, and so on. But no one even suggested that just because you're made to appeal to one area of the audience doesn't mean that others can't find you entertaining.
|
|
|
Post by Cela on Jan 8, 2013 18:27:23 GMT -5
If you're a better fighter, why do you lose? Title shots or no, why would anyone with better fighting ability lose to someone inferior. I think you're missing the fundamental point about how it's not about winning/losing - it's about opportunities. If you were the better fighter, you wouldn't lose. But when Cena loses - he gets title shot after title shot after title shot after title shot. When guys like Kidd lose, they get pushed to the back of the line. Ok, let me rephrase. -He said marketability makes a star. -And that better people are not getting any opportunities because they can't sell t-shirts. -Tyson Kidd is a skilled wrestler that is being held back due to not being able to sell t-shirts. -Tyson Kidd, despite having more skill never wins matches. -So, skill is not the determining factor of winning. Therefore, it's predetermined.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 18:29:39 GMT -5
haha! What? I mean ... how do you even figure that? If that's the case then the IWC is MUCH bigger than I ever imagined cause his fanbase during his face run was bigger than a few "geeks on the 'net" Seriously, did you even read my post? When did I ever say that only the IWC liked Punk? I said Punk panders to that part of the fanbase, just like Cena panders to kids, Rock to nostalgic Attitude Era fans, and so on. But no one even suggested that just because you're made to appeal to one area of the audience doesn't mean that others can't find you entertaining. Fair point. I implied things that weren't there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 18:36:46 GMT -5
I think you're missing the fundamental point about how it's not about winning/losing - it's about opportunities. If you were the better fighter, you wouldn't lose. But when Cena loses - he gets title shot after title shot after title shot after title shot. When guys like Kidd lose, they get pushed to the back of the line. Ok, let me rephrase. 1 He said marketability makes a star. 2 And that better people are not getting any opportunities because they can't sell t-shirts. 3 Tyson Kidd is a skilled wrestler that is being held back due to not being able to sell t-shirts. 4 -Tyson Kidd, despite having more skill never wins matches. 5 So, skill is not the determining factor of winning. Therefore, it's predetermined. You're making a big jump between 4 and 5 that Punk never said, nor implied. (I numbered your points just for clarification). And he never really said #1 at all. He also never said or implied that Kidd lost matches despite being skilled. He was more referring to the crowd not getting behind him. I'd put Punk's position more like this: 1) Marketability means management will be more favorable to you despite skill level or wins/losses. 2) Just being a skilled wrestler isn't enough in WWE, you also have to win over the WWE Universe. 3) Tyson Kidd never won over the WWE Universe. He sometimes wins, sometimes loses matches. 4) John Cena did win over the fans. He also sometimes wins, sometimes loses matches. 5) John Cena gets many more chances to fight for a title of his choosing than Kidd has and that isn't right. I think if you really want to see someone breaking kayfaybe you can find it in almost any promo, but you really have to reach to see it in this one.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Jan 8, 2013 18:58:39 GMT -5
While I'm not a regular viewer, I had to check this stuff out when I heard that Punk might've been up to something special.
Concerning that promo, once again Brandon Stroud over at Best and Worst of Raw says it better than I can:
It seems to me that Punk wants his character to be the heel that sometimes people cheer, but unlike past anti-heroes, Punk isn't trying to appeal to you. If he IS appealing to you as an "IWC Smark" (I wish we'd quit trying to toss labels around, sheesh), then he wants you to sit back and start thinking "what does cheering for such a jerk actually say about me?". He's challenging the audience, ESPECIALLY the people his promos seem to be appealing to the most.
That's the entire point, and it stems all the way back to ROH Death Before Dishonor III, June 18, 2005, Morristown, New Jersey: that CM Punk is "the devil himself", that he pulls the crowds' emotions like puppet strings because he "gets off on that". He sees how he's the darling of so many fans who want to see the guys working so hard in the indies get the big breaks...and he willfully burns the bridge to those fans, because when it comes down to it, it isn't about a "revolution", nor about ice cream bars, nor about trying to get the company to push Bryan Danielson.
It's about CM Punk.
For him, that's the only person it's ever been about.
And if you cheer him for it, then you're just as much a "puppet" as the "WWE Universe".
Now, obviously, that's all in storyline, but it's a delightful challenge to the audience, as Stroud says, akin to shows like Breaking Bad or Mad Men.
As for the Rock, watching him it was kind of sad that he didn't come out and really address Punk more directly, and instead wound up doing the whole Rock schtick that I remember getting very tired of in 1999. It's not that he was bad, per se: it's that it was clear he was capable of so much more, of actually addressing Punk's promo, being dead serious about dethroning him, and not resorting to the "cheap pop mentality".
That mentality is a huge reason why I'm not the biggest wrestling fan anymore. I really, truly despise it, having to do long promos in front of an audience because apparently it doesn't count unless you can get fans to sing along with a catchphrase. Rock's fully capable of not doing that, and given the atmosphere of that promo, I think he should've tried something different.
|
|
|
Post by Andy Martin on Jan 8, 2013 19:04:31 GMT -5
I don't understand who the promo was for. People who booed Punk before are still going to boo him. The people who cheered him are still going to cheer him. WWE Universe on Twitter was retweeting people praising Punk. So what's the point? Team Edward v. Team Jacob done better? That said, I think everyone in WWE not named Vince McMahon knows each man has a large fanbase that won't be swayed and will point that out. They're still going to push Rock as the face and Punk as a heel who hates the fans but they aren't going to pretend that everyone hates him either (outside of whichever announcer has Vince in his ear that night). I'm going to go out on a limb and say Vince knows all of this as well.
|
|