Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 12, 2013 18:01:04 GMT -5
This. I get that it's good to boo a heel that you like to "support" them, but there's nothing wrong with cheering for them either. After all, some of the greatest superstars came from fans going against who the WWE told them they should like/not like. Exactly. Even in the 80's, fans cheered for Randy Savage and Roddy Piper despite the fact that they were bad guys. The audience didn't care, because those guys were entertaining as hell. The same thing is happening with CM Punk. He's simply reached the same point in his career that Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle did in 2005, where he's too damn popular and good at his job to not be cheered by a large portion of the audience. Same thing happened with Austin's heel turn in 2001. It was way too late, and fans cheered him anyway. Also, I really don't like the mindset of "react the way you're supposed to". Sorry, but as individuals with free will, people can cheer/boo/heckle/chant for whoever and whatever they want. I love CM Punk, and I get genuine entertainment out of what a colossal prick his character is, so I cheer. I also sat in a large section of fans at No Way Out 2009 who were all cheering for Edge when he weaseled his way into the second Elimination Chamber match. People cheer for entertaining characters, good or bad.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Mar 12, 2013 18:02:35 GMT -5
It's what they're there for, it's what they want, it's what their continued presence on television demands. Fans don't seem to get this. Like a few years ago people got behind Christian and started cheering him then became surprised when he soon disappeared from TV. He was performing a heel role. If he wasn't getting over as a heel - he didn't have a role. You trying to rewrite history to prove a point? It's also the fans fault people get buried.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 18:02:38 GMT -5
It's the problem when people cheer faces because they think its 'cool' or they like them 1) it's not cool 2) if you like them - boo them. It's what they're there for, it's what they want, it's what their continued presence on television demands. Fans don't seem to get this. Like a few years ago people got behind Christian and started cheering him then became surprised when he soon disappeared from TV. He was performing a heel role. If he wasn't getting over as a heel - he didn't have a role. It happens time and time again. If you like a heel and want to see more of them then cheering him is the absolute worst thing you can do. Yet it happens time and time again and time again they ask 'No fair, X was buried'. - Of course because they had a slot for a heel, wanted a heel - but you kept cheering. It'll happen again, possibly not with Punk because he gets sufficient heat from the crowd but whomever it is, it will happen. When did this happen? I thought Christian disappearing from TV was because of injuries. I dont' remember any heels getting cheered too much and getting buried for it.
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BK From WV
Hank Scorpio
Claims to have sense of humor, probably stole it
I'm Here
Posts: 5,611
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Post by BK From WV on Mar 12, 2013 18:02:56 GMT -5
For me,I like Punk and I've never really cared for The Undertaker. Therefore,I'm going to cheer for Punk(even though I know he isn't winning).
Even though,I will admit that I'm looking forward to seeing Taker's Mania entrance in person.
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hitch
Don Corleone
Hitch knot
Posts: 1,696
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Post by hitch on Mar 12, 2013 18:04:14 GMT -5
Not everyone is a Randy Savage or a Roddy Piper.
Fact is there are limited chances for guys these days. If the office has them earmarked for a heel turn and they can't get over as a heel - the chances are their chances is gone.
Besides what do people think the guys themselves feel. Their big chance to get over as a heel and people don't boo. People talk as if guys who want to be heels appreciate being cheered. It's delusional. They most likely HATE it.
I don't get why 'showing your appreciation' means doing something likely to end the guys push. It's like thinking you're showing appreciation for your favourite tenor by going along to an opera and singing along.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 12, 2013 18:04:24 GMT -5
I will wait for your other thread about how people should stop booing Cena. I'm assuming it's coming, as by your logic, it should go both ways. Well yeah, you have a point here. But for one thing it's basically become part of Cena's gimmick that he gets booed by a lot of people (whereas Punk does not acknowledge or endorse people cheering him), and it's also led to a lot of killer promo work by Cena. My point was as much about how I think Punk's mic work is frequently through the floor at the moment due to him basically just yelling at people until they are forced to boo him.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 12, 2013 18:06:04 GMT -5
If crowds followed these guidelines there would have been no Austin 3:16. On the opposite end (booing the face) there would have been no Die Rocky Die, and hence no The Rock. Vince himself would tell you this.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Mar 12, 2013 18:07:22 GMT -5
I don't get why 'showing your appreciation' means doing something likely to end the guys push. It's like thinking you're showing appreciation for your favourite tenor by going along to an opera and singing along. People's pushes end when they get NO reaction. I've never seen anyone lose a push cuz he was being cheered to much. Hell, Randy Orton was getting tons of cheers towards the end of his heel run and he didn't get buried, they turned him super face and probably got a better push than he'd get as a heel.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 12, 2013 18:07:39 GMT -5
If crowds followed these guidelines there would have been no Austin 3:16. On the opposite end (booing the face) there would have been no Die Rocky Die, and hence no The Rock. Vince himself would tell you this. Except WWE clearly doesn't listen to the fan reactions nearly as much as they used to since they so frequently do the direct opposite of what the fans in the building clearly want.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Mar 12, 2013 18:09:59 GMT -5
If crowds followed these guidelines there would have been no Austin 3:16. On the opposite end (booing the face) there would have been no Die Rocky Die, and hence no The Rock. Vince himself would tell you this. Except WWE clearly doesn't listen to the fan reactions nearly as much as they used to since they so frequently do the direct opposite of what the fans in the building clearly want. That's WWE's problem, not the fans.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 12, 2013 18:10:26 GMT -5
If crowds followed these guidelines there would have been no Austin 3:16. On the opposite end (booing the face) there would have been no Die Rocky Die, and hence no The Rock. Vince himself would tell you this. Except WWE clearly doesn't listen to the fan reactions nearly as much as they used to since they so frequently do the direct opposite of what the fans in the building clearly want. As Punk once said, "That's the problem!".
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hitch
Don Corleone
Hitch knot
Posts: 1,696
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Post by hitch on Mar 12, 2013 18:12:50 GMT -5
I don't get why 'showing your appreciation' means doing something likely to end the guys push. It's like thinking you're showing appreciation for your favourite tenor by going along to an opera and singing along. People's pushes end when they get NO reaction. I've never seen anyone lose a push cuz he was being cheered to much. Hell, Randy Orton was getting tons of cheers towards the end of his heel run and he didn't get buried, they turned him super face and probably got a better push than he'd get as a heel. I just think it's sad people can't seem to appreciate a heel and if they like a heel - suddenly they have to cheer. So half the decent heels we get have to turn face. Again, how do you think the guys themselves feel if they're trying to get the audience to give them heat and some idiots are there screaming for them, chanting their name. People act as if it's a 'nice' or welcome thing for the guys themselves. They probably look on those who cheer them with disdain.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 12, 2013 18:15:24 GMT -5
I don't get why 'showing your appreciation' means doing something likely to end the guys push. It's like thinking you're showing appreciation for your favourite tenor by going along to an opera and singing along. People's pushes end when they get NO reaction. I've never seen anyone lose a push cuz he was being cheered to much. Hell, Randy Orton was getting tons of cheers towards the end of his heel run and he didn't get buried, they turned him super face and probably got a better push than he'd get as a heel. Exactly. Kurt Angle couldn't get boo'd to save his life in 2005, so what happened next? He got a super push as an ass-kicking face and won the World Title right out of the gate. Triple H couldn't get a heel reaction in 2006, so he re-united with Shawn Michaels and went on a DX megapush. John Cena in 2003 was getting tons of cheers, which lead to him becoming the biggest star in the company when they gave him a babyface push. So, with those examples in mind, why on earth would anyone think that being cheered would end Punk's push? He's still the number two guy in the company, for crying out loud.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
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Post by Lancers on Mar 12, 2013 18:16:22 GMT -5
They feel that because they paid a ticket, they can root for whoever the hell they want. And can't they? Of course. But my point is that Punk's job is to be the bad guy. His job is to get the people to boo him. The people who root for Punk root for him because they like him. But it actually has an adverse effect on Punk's intentions, which is to be a villain. It can easily be misconstrued as somewhat disrespectful to him that one's admiration for the man prevents them from doing what he wants you to do.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Mar 12, 2013 18:19:13 GMT -5
People's pushes end when they get NO reaction. I've never seen anyone lose a push cuz he was being cheered to much. Hell, Randy Orton was getting tons of cheers towards the end of his heel run and he didn't get buried, they turned him super face and probably got a better push than he'd get as a heel. I just think it's sad people can't seem to appreciate a heel and if they like a heel - suddenly they have to cheer. So half the decent heels we get have to turn face. Again, how do you think the guys themselves feel if they're trying to get the audience to give them heat and some idiots are there screaming for them, chanting their name. People act as if it's a 'nice' or welcome thing for the guys themselves. They probably look on those who cheer them with disdain. I'm pretty sure an arena of people screaming your name isn't a shitty feeling. I get that their intention is to get the opposite reaction, but I think it's pretty weird to boo someone you like. If Punk's music were to hit, I wouldn't be able to help myself in screaming my head off cuz I'm a huge mark for the guy. How can you enjoy yourself when you have to boo things you like? That's insane.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 18:20:54 GMT -5
Someone like CM Punk probably hates getting cheered. A midcard heel probably loves the hell out of any reaction he gets. Remember how happy Cody Rhodes was when MSG went nuts for him at Survivor Series?
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 12, 2013 18:22:54 GMT -5
Also, you'd think that if heels having fans was truly an issue, they wouldn't constantly release T-Shirts for them. Punk has always had a ton of merch, even when he was leading the S.E.S., and Triple H, Orton, Edge, and Miz always got tons of T-Shirts when they were heels, too. They KNOW these heels have a fanbase, and I really don't think it bugs them.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Mar 12, 2013 18:31:31 GMT -5
This is perfectly true- but on the flipside:
Because crowds DON'T follow those guidelines, we end up with people like Vickie Guerrero, John Laurinatis, Triple H during his reign of terror, Jeff Jarrett during his lowest points, and every other heel who was given a huge push because the audiences genuinely went past "I don't like the character you are playing and want to see you get beaten" and towards "I do not want to see you get beaten, I want you off of my TV screen for good". It is because people will cheer heels who they personally enjoy that there's been a rise of X Pac Heat-drawing heels, solely because they're the only heels that can be reasonably assured of being booed.
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Post by Unaffiliated on Mar 12, 2013 18:34:21 GMT -5
Times have changed. We have reached the era of "everyone knows it's fake". People should be allowed to cheer or boo whoever they want to. If this is a problem, perhaps they should further away from the heel is heel, face is face thing, and give more guys "in-between" characters.
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DavidArquette
Don Corleone
The actor formerly known as avanteproject
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Post by DavidArquette on Mar 12, 2013 18:41:17 GMT -5
This. I get that it's good to boo a heel that you like to "support" them, but there's nothing wrong with cheering for them either. After all, some of the greatest superstars came from fans going against who the WWE told them they should like/not like. Austin and Rocky Maivia being perfect examples.
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