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Post by Crusty Ruffles on Apr 17, 2013 22:31:04 GMT -5
I have no problem with "legends" being used in any capacity. If a guy wants to work, let him work. That's his call to take his double knee replacements out there in a t shirt. It'll draw big for a local promotor. If he wants to sign autographs, then bring him in for that too.
The only issue I have are promotors like the guy in the Scott Hall documentary. If a guy is clearly in no condition to perform, then he shouldn't be used. The thing is, that's more of an ethical issue for me and I'm trying to apply that to professional wrestling. Not really going to happen.
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Sam Punk
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Post by Sam Punk on Apr 17, 2013 22:45:27 GMT -5
For a lot of them, they would have a difficult time finding another job. Wrestling is all they have. It would likely do more harm than good.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 17, 2013 22:51:24 GMT -5
With the amount of talent running around the independents with name value these days an indy promoter can make money without running the risk of a serious injury on his/her card. Not necessarily. I think in many cases, people overestimate how well known some of the indie names are to casual fans, which remains the largest part of the audience. A lot of those names, if you are outside of an area where they have regularly worked, are largely unknown. In those places, unless you are actively following the wrestling world online (again, a small part of the audience) you have no idea who those people are. I can pretty well guarantee that I could run a show here featuring Colt Cabana and one featuring "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan, and the card with Duggan would draw better because even though he's past his prime or whatever, more people know who he is and would want to see him for nostalgia and a photo/autograph if nothing else. I think Colt could probably outdraw Duggan, but Colt is basically one of THE indie guys. Very few would even scratch it. It's basically like TNA and them hiring ex-WWE names. TNA fans often hate it, but TNA really needs marquee names. What the OP is saying is the negative side of this, and that is that often, ex-WWE guys are ex for a reason, often broken down and burned out. I think the OP's suggestion is very flawed, but there is at least a premise, which some ideas we see on the forum don't even have. Ultimately, the name value is vital. You don't have to book them in your longest match on the card, maybe, but you will have to play ball with legends and guys with TV pasts if you want to make bank, usually.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 17, 2013 23:01:02 GMT -5
Eh no.
If they want to work then let them as they are making money and since having a legend on the card will attract more fans its going to give the others there more exposure.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 17, 2013 23:33:22 GMT -5
No. Maybe boycott them from ACTIVELY competing, but not from booking them in general. As you mentioned, this is their livelihood. Also as far as "Forcing them to find jobs", the hell? Not to really pry but are you serious? You somehow think it's right to "FORCE" (Your words) a 50-60 year old, likely disabled, possibly under-educated person to get a job, in this economy, when ABLE-BODIED people WITH ACTUAL DEGREES CANNOT? And you want to claim it's for their HEALTH?Also...what does Janetty stealing from the promoter have to do with anything? Because one KNOWN problem talent does something incredibly stupid, then we shouldn't book ANY of them? I really don't get your line of logic. Sure, I'd be all for them still doing the Convention circuit no problem that isn't really a risk to their health at all. I'd be fine with them being authority figures on cards or announcers etc. The actual wrestling thing is what bothers me. I'm serious about the jobs thing. It's not right to force them (That may have been the wrong word) but them finding jobs is definitely better then them continuing to wreck their bodies every weekend right? The economy may be bad but jobs are still available. These guys could find work if they really needed it. Jannetty was something I brought up to show how desperate some of these dudes are. Would Marty of had to of stolen from vendors if he had a 9-5 back home? Probably not. But he allegedly had to steal to put food on the table that's when it's time to go and find some real work and realize the whole wrestling thing is over for you.But your chief example is something that may entirely be not true. Again, has there been ANY confirmation from a reputable source regarding the Jannetty allegations?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Apr 18, 2013 0:59:32 GMT -5
Also, if there is no problem with them doing conventions, how can the only example be of one wrestler allegedly did...at a convention?
I think the OP's heart is in the right place, but he's not really thinking this through.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on Apr 18, 2013 5:06:26 GMT -5
My main point isn't the Jannetty thing I just gave an example as to how desperate a lot of these guys are. The same example can be used for a Greg Valentine who lies to the fans in an attempt to sell a 10 dollar 8X10 (That story was posted here) or the same example can be used for a guy like The Iron Sheik who is 70 and still accepts bookings despite the fact he can barely walk.
Obviously the people who are better off are fine, I'm all for a guy like Lanny Poffo or Diamond Dallas wrestling it's the guys that can barely walk let alone wrestle that I am concerned about. A lot of them are getting into rings with poorly trained individuals and one wrong move and they have nothing to fall back on
But all of you guys bring up great points. Why is an indy promoter going to care about these guys unless he has a personal relationship with them? If they're willing to be used for money then a promoter will use them. I guess when it comes down to it I'm morally against the indies using these old guys in matches and having them hurt themselves BUT from a business perspective it makes perfect sense.
I'm just dreading the day that we come onto a forum or a dirt sheet website and we hear about one of these 80's legends dying in the ring or crippling themselves in the ring because they just couldn't let go of the small amount of fame they had 30 years ago.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Apr 18, 2013 5:34:22 GMT -5
I'm just dreading the day that we come onto a forum or a dirt sheet website and we hear about one of these 80's legends dying in the ring or crippling themselves in the ring because they just couldn't let go of the small amount of fame they had 30 years ago. A 80's legend did die in the ring. Granted he wasn't an old man when it happened but his body was broken done like a man in his 70's. Why single out the legends? What about the 25 year old with a pain pill addition and concussion issues? Or the guy who got Hep B but still doing death matches? In the wrestling business, legends still have a place. Maybe they can't give you a 20 minute match anymore. Yeah, they got to wrestle in a t-shirt but how many people past 50 are still jacked? If they still want to be involved in wrestling and a promoter is willing to pay for them to show, power to them. Doesn't mean I like it but it's their life choice not mine.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Apr 18, 2013 18:11:15 GMT -5
Not necessarily. I think in many cases, people overestimate how well known some of the indie names are to casual fans, which remains the largest part of the audience. A lot of those names, if you are outside of an area where they have regularly worked, are largely unknown. In those places, unless you are actively following the wrestling world online (again, a small part of the audience) you have no idea who those people are. I can pretty well guarantee that I could run a show here featuring Colt Cabana and one featuring "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan, and the card with Duggan would draw better because even though he's past his prime or whatever, more people know who he is and would want to see him for nostalgia and a photo/autograph if nothing else. I think Colt could probably outdraw Duggan, but Colt is basically one of THE indie guys. Very few would even scratch it. It's basically like TNA and them hiring ex-WWE names. TNA fans often hate it, but TNA really needs marquee names. What the OP is saying is the negative side of this, and that is that often, ex-WWE guys are ex for a reason, often broken down and burned out. I think the OP's suggestion is very flawed, but there is at least a premise, which some ideas we see on the forum don't even have. Ultimately, the name value is vital. You don't have to book them in your longest match on the card, maybe, but you will have to play ball with legends and guys with TV pasts if you want to make bank, usually. In some places, I'm sure he could. But everywhere? No way. I attended an indie show back in January that featured their own local crew as well as Mad Man Pondo, BJ Whitmer, and Dutch Mantell. Now, this group probably isn't the best example because they've built some buzz about themselves and have been drawing steady numbers. But while I was interested in seeing Whitmer (and admittedly, curious about Pondo) I went solely because of Dutch Mantell. It's also not the best example because Dutch didn't wrestle; he cut a promo, worked as a guest ref, and took a bump or two. But the fact remains: I went to the show solely because of Dutch, as did my dad and several older fans in the front row. It really just depends on the local fan base, and what kind of fan outnumbers the other.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 18, 2013 18:26:02 GMT -5
I think Colt could probably outdraw Duggan, but Colt is basically one of THE indie guys. Very few would even scratch it. It's basically like TNA and them hiring ex-WWE names. TNA fans often hate it, but TNA really needs marquee names. What the OP is saying is the negative side of this, and that is that often, ex-WWE guys are ex for a reason, often broken down and burned out. I think the OP's suggestion is very flawed, but there is at least a premise, which some ideas we see on the forum don't even have. Ultimately, the name value is vital. You don't have to book them in your longest match on the card, maybe, but you will have to play ball with legends and guys with TV pasts if you want to make bank, usually. In some places, I'm sure he could. But everywhere? No way. I attended an indie show back in January that featured their own local crew as well as Mad Man Pondo, BJ Whitmer, and Dutch Mantell. Now, this group probably isn't the best example because they've built some buzz about themselves and have been drawing steady numbers. But while I was interested in seeing Whitmer (and admittedly, curious about Pondo) I went solely because of Dutch Mantell. It's also not the best example because Dutch didn't wrestle; he cut a promo, worked as a guest ref, and took a bump or two. But the fact remains: I went to the show solely because of Dutch, as did my dad and several older fans in the front row. It really just depends on the local fan base, and what kind of fan outnumbers the other. You may have a point, true.
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Post by Djm Doesn't Find You Funny on Apr 18, 2013 18:31:43 GMT -5
An overwhelming number of "fans" will never ever ever go to an indy show without that name that they knew from when they were younger.
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Post by RareTradU on Apr 18, 2013 20:28:21 GMT -5
Also how many fans and other wrestlers have ragged on retired wrestlers who try and work regular jobs? I remember Flair and others mocking Shane Douglas for working at Target and Justin Credible for working at Olive Garden. How would you feel walking into a 7-11 and seeing a broke down Greg Valentine sweeping the floor. Most these guys only know wrestling so they'll do whatever they can until they can't.
Kinda on-topic, isn't it true that Meng/Haku is a car dealer now? I'd definitely go buy a car from him.
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Apr 18, 2013 20:42:16 GMT -5
Also how many fans and other wrestlers have ragged on retired wrestlers who try and work regular jobs? I remember Flair and others mocking Shane Douglas for working at Target and Justin Credible for working at Olive Garden. How would you feel walking into a 7-11 and seeing a broke down Greg Valentine sweeping the floor. Most these guys only know wrestling so they'll do whatever they can until they can't. Kinda on-topic, isn't it true that Meng/Haku is a car dealer now? I'd definitely go buy a car from him. No, you WILL buy a car from him. There is no negotiation!
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Sam Punk
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Post by Sam Punk on Apr 18, 2013 20:45:23 GMT -5
Also how many fans and other wrestlers have ragged on retired wrestlers who try and work regular jobs? I remember Flair and others mocking Shane Douglas for working at Target and Justin Credible for working at Olive Garden. How would you feel walking into a 7-11 and seeing a broke down Greg Valentine sweeping the floor. Most these guys only know wrestling so they'll do whatever they can until they can't. Kinda on-topic, isn't it true that Meng/Haku is a car dealer now? I'd definitely go buy a car from him. He does. He's at David Maus Toyota in Sanford, FL. But yeah, I agree with your point. Nothing wrong with these guys trying to make an honest living, whether it's Target or Olive Garden or Walmart.
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The OP
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Post by The OP on Apr 18, 2013 20:53:40 GMT -5
Also how many fans and other wrestlers have ragged on retired wrestlers who try and work regular jobs? This is sadly true. The only thing I really don't like about wrestling these days is how unsympathetic some of the fans are to the wrestlers and everything they've done to their bodies...*sob* it's still real to me, dammit! Sorry, I got overcome with emotion there for a second. #oldschoolkongadaveshoutout No but seriously, I think the mistake that fans make is assuming that guys aren't worth seeing if they haven't been in WWE or whatever. Now I'm not saying that there aren't crappy promotions and crappy wrestlers, of course there are. BUT there are also a lot of promotions who use local talent but they're run by people who know wrestling and there are guys you never heard of having great matches, and once in a while you even see the kind of match you'll never forget. I guess what I'm saying is, if you keep seeing a wrestler on flyers and stuff and hearing they're name there's usually a reason for that even if you've never seen them on TV. Even if you've never heard there name anywhere, that doesn't mean they aren't amazing. Everybody was a nobody when they first started. Next time you see a poster for a local wrestling show, assume the wrestlers pictured on it are being promoted for a reason. Somebody believes in them enough to put up their money and assume the financial risk of a small business. You know some of these wrestlers have to be pretty damn good for people to be willing to do that. If you're somebody who doesn't want to see legends at indie shows then this especially applies to you. It's like how they say you vote with your wallet. If you don't want legends, support promotions who focus on fresh talent.
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Post by eDemento2099 on Apr 18, 2013 21:00:41 GMT -5
You shouldn't discriminate against a wrestler based on his age. Years before retiring, Shawn Michaels consistently outperformed guys who were probably at least half his age.
People told DDP he would never amount to anything because of the age at which he broke into wrestling. He worked his butt off to become one of the most over wrestlers in the industry during the late 90s.
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Post by KingPopper on Apr 18, 2013 22:55:18 GMT -5
My town is a college town, half way between Nasville and Knoxville, we have a show coming up that's stacked.
Jake the Snake DDP Rikishi Tommy Dreamer Al Snow Kevin Sullivan and maybe Brian Chistopher. Also appearing a former cast member of the Walking Dead
Now I don't expect Jake to put on a classic, as long as he hits a DDT, and puts a snake on someone, he will still send the fans home happy. Also I would be willing to see anyone of those guys (ok maybe not rikishi, or Sullivan) if they were the only big name.
The last event we had here, the biggest star was Crimson from TNA. I skipped that one. I mean this is also the town where traffic was blocked for miles because Hogan was in town shooting his midget wrestling show at a bar. I'm kinda rambling, but fans want to see the big names, that's how I feel too.
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Post by aaronslip on Apr 19, 2013 1:22:12 GMT -5
Legends are the big selling points of shows more often thsn not. They are the face you can smack on a poster and casual fans may go and see.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by The OP on Apr 19, 2013 7:35:15 GMT -5
I wouldn't say boycott legends either, what I'm saying is like, don't boycott indies that don't use legends.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 8:04:44 GMT -5
Alernate title for this thread: Should The Indies Boycott Making Money? With the amount of talent running around the independents with name value these days an indy promoter can make money without running the risk of a serious injury on his/her card. What if those well-known indy wrestlers don't draw in some areas, though? I've been to a ton of indy shows in BFE, Nowhere that have no "name" indy talent, but a bunch of local guys and one or two '80s/'90s names, and the house is always pretty packed. I don't think it would be otherwise. Most of the people in the audience are either families with kids (who just want to see wrestling) or very, very old-school NWA/JCP fans who are there to see names like Ronnie Garvin or Ivan Koloff. I'd bet a dollar that most of those folks either don't know or don't give a hoot about the current indy darlings. Not that they wouldn't love them if they saw their work, I just don't think that demographic tends to keep up with this kind of stuff.
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