ECW Reunion Shows and why they fail?

[SOR]

Looking for some opinions here. I'm watching Barbed Wire City the new (ish) ECW Documentary and at the start they interview Shane Douglas about the Extreme Rising shows and what he expected.

This made me think of how many ECW rebirths/wannabes there have been:

XPW (Lasted the longest but is remembered mostly in a negative way. Couldn't capture the spirit of ECW even though they tried almost everything to do so including exclusively leasing the ECW Arena)

Hardcore Homecoming (Did 4 or 5 shows and then didn't do anything ever again. Shows seemed to draw well but was dead before anything big could happen)

WWE's ECW (Lasted a couple of years but was only seen as "good" once a majority of the ECW originals were gone and replaced with guys like Matt Hardy, Jack Swagger, Christian etc)

ECW One Night Stand (Probably the only widely recognized show as being as good as the original by the fans. The 2nd one although good didn't go over well with most fans because not everyone was an ECW original)

Legends Of The Arena (Was apparently meant to be an annual thing held by Francine but only did 1 show and failed)

3PW (Was meant to be just like ECW lasted a couple of years and failed)

Extreme Reunion/Rising (Lasted what? 9 months and kicked the bucket quite suddenly)


I'm sure there's others I'm missing as well. Basically I'd like this boards opinion on why all these shows have failed. Is the talent just hard to work with and too demanding (Financially?), Was Paul Heyman really so influential that only he can make ECW work? Fans are obviously willing to support these projects so it's not a lack of interest...

[Emmet Russell]

it failed because it's a dead company and some people (Shane Douglas) hold onto it until they drag the name through the mud.

[Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster]

Extreme Reunion/Rising failed because ECW has been dead for more 10 years and even the fanboys have said enough with the reunions.

[Magnus the Magnificent]

The people who made it memorable are:

Not involved (eg, Paul Heyman)
Dead (many, many wrestlers or performers)
Old and broken down (many wrestlers)

[Ben Wyatt]

Jun 3, 2013 4:30:02 GMT -5 Emmet Russell said:

it failed because it's a dead company and some people (Shane Douglas) hold onto it until they drag the name through the mud.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

ECW wasn't as big a promotion as people imagine it being, as the WWE found when they tried to run ECW as it's own brand outside of it's comfort zone, the WWE and wrestling fans have hyped it far beyond what it really was, a northeastern promotion, about two thirds the size of what TNA is today with no international presence. It may have been a draw in a few areas, but in reality most people got their only exposure to ECW through their guys stints in the WWF/E and WCW and most of the ECW alumni that actually made it, don't do these shows. They don't feature RVD, the Dudleys, Mick Foley, Steve Austin, they rarely even feature Raven or the Sandman and when they do, they're not really in a condition people want to pay to see more than once these days. The ECW guys that work most of these things are the real ECW legacy, guys like Balls Mahoney, Shane Douglas, Axl Rotten, Sabu and so on, guys who're now utterly devastated by injuries caused by the ECW style.

On top of that, these shows tend to either be run by less than stellar human beings, or they're amateur hour, cancelled on short notice, or have guys advertised that are in no state to compete with no plan B... They tend make it harder for others to gain a foothold as fans burned by bad shows don't tend to return to see the shows of whoever else tries running a similar promotion in as great a number. I know these things are often started with the best of intentions, one last run with the boys from the day, but the days of Hardcore wrestling as a moneyspinner are over, the ECW name and legacy has been run so deep into the ground now I suspect Satan himself is pondering where to get fireproof kendosticks.

[Surfer Sandman]

Jun 3, 2013 4:30:02 GMT -5 Emmet Russell said:

it failed because it's a dead company and some people (Shane Douglas) hold onto it until they drag the name through the mud.

The same Shane Douglas that has openly criticized Tommy Dreamer and others for beating the dead horse that is ECW?

Instead of trying to re-create ECW, take what made it successful and apply it to an indie that's already well-established. You don't need a card of all barbed-wire/table matches or flippy-flippy guys from overseas. You certainly don't need former ECW guys well past their prime either.

[celticjobber]

Jun 3, 2013 4:36:08 GMT -5 Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster said:

Extreme Reunion/Rising failed because ECW has been dead for more 10 years and even the fanboys have said enough with the reunions.

The first Extreme Reunion show last year was a huge success (as far as ticket sales go). But with guys OD'ing (Sabu), guys being too f***ed up to work (Justin Credible), and guys not wanting to wrestle (Raven); the show was so bad that it killed any chances for the company to keep any kind of momentum going.

[Emmet Russell]

Jun 3, 2013 5:57:47 GMT -5 celticjobber said:

Jun 3, 2013 4:36:08 GMT -5 Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster said:

Extreme Reunion/Rising failed because ECW has been dead for more 10 years and even the fanboys have said enough with the reunions.

The first Extreme Reunion show last year was a huge success (as far as ticket sales go). But with guys OD'ing (Sabu), guys being too f***ed up to work (Justin Credible), and guys not wanting to wrestle (Raven); the show was so bad that it killed any chances for the company to keep any kind of momentum going.

It was a success with ticket sales indeed, but I remember the rest of it being disastrous.

You already mentioned the stuff with Sabu, Raven and Credible, but I remember the fans absolutely shitting all over the show. Enough so that Douglas had to make a apology and promise he was pulling himself from wrestling on the shows (although, unless I am mistaken he wrestled Hardy in the main event not too long after)

[SOR]

Jun 3, 2013 6:11:04 GMT -5 Emmet Russell said:

Jun 3, 2013 5:57:47 GMT -5 celticjobber said:

The first Extreme Reunion show last year was a huge success (as far as ticket sales go). But with guys OD'ing (Sabu), guys being too f***ed up to work (Justin Credible), and guys not wanting to wrestle (Raven); the show was so bad that it killed any chances for the company to keep any kind of momentum going.

It was a success with ticket sales indeed, but I remember the rest of it being disastrous.

You already mentioned the stuff with Sabu, Raven and Credible, but I remember the fans absolutely shitting all over the show. Enough so that Douglas had to make a apology and promise he was pulling himself from wrestling on the shows (although, unless I am mistaken he wrestled Hardy in the main event not too long after)

The Extreme Reunion fans shit on everyone except Devon Storm, Jerry Lynn, Sandman and Too Cold Scorpio. Everyone else got shit on.

[Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster]

Jun 3, 2013 5:57:47 GMT -5 celticjobber said:

Jun 3, 2013 4:36:08 GMT -5 Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster said:

Extreme Reunion/Rising failed because ECW has been dead for more 10 years and even the fanboys have said enough with the reunions.

The first Extreme Reunion show last year was a huge success (as far as ticket sales go). But with guys OD'ing (Sabu), guys being too f***ed up to work (Justin Credible), and guys not wanting to wrestle (Raven); the show was so bad that it killed any chances for the company to keep any kind of momentum going.

Yeah true but that was a terrible way for Shane Douglas to make a good first impression with the fans.

[kingoftheindies]

The first Extreme Rising show was not only a disaster in ring wise, but the show was like 4-5 hours too. The next show actually wasn't bad (had the debut of Bestia 666 and Super Crazy's nephew) but too much bad happened from the first show.

XPW, according to Kevin Klinerock who is one of the founders, was originally just gonna be a SoCal indy promotion but Rob Black had done business with Paul Heyman in the passed and Paul acted like he didn't know who Rob was when negotiating a deal, so it became Xtreme as an F You to Paul... Anyways, it didn't last because the money was coming from Black's porn company, and eventually Black was worrying more about wrestling than porno, so his company wasn't making money, thus no money was available for XPW. Combine that with the US government getting him for obscenity charges and XPW attempting to go to Philly and the money just dried up.

3PW was just a case of Blue Meanie and Jasmine St Clair splitting. Jasmine didn't want to run an indy promotion anymore and before Meanie could find a partner to help him run the company, St. Clair closed the door.

As for the question. Way too many people involved with ECW are just in too bad of shape to continuously be thrown out there for Reunion Shows. Combine that with some that were trying to become promotions (Extreme Rising, Legends of the Arena) having very bad first shows, and people aren't gonna care. Look at Tommy Dreamer's House of Hardcore. He thought the show was gonna be a disaster due to the Extreme Reunion/Rising stuff, but the show was well received and HOH will be running again later this month. Thing is Tommy, wants that to eventually be an indy promotion with local guys and students (he's starting up the House of Hardcore school again). Douglas fully expected to be able to build Extreme Rising around ECW talent

[WBL a.k.a. Mountie II]

Look at the kind of stuff the original ECW guys did with their bodies back during the promotion's heyday.

Think about the long term effects of that.

It's almost 20 years later. The long term effects have kicked in.

Most of them just don't have the physical standing to do what they used to do anymore.

[Bob Schlapowitz]

Because it's hard to get nostalgic about something that won't f***ing go away!

[Ultimo Gallos]

Jun 3, 2013 5:57:47 GMT -5 celticjobber said:

Jun 3, 2013 4:36:08 GMT -5 Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster said:

Extreme Reunion/Rising failed because ECW has been dead for more 10 years and even the fanboys have said enough with the reunions.

The first Extreme Reunion show last year was a huge success (as far as ticket sales go). But with guys OD'ing (Sabu), guys being too f***ed up to work (Justin Credible), and guys not wanting to wrestle (Raven); the show was so bad that it killed any chances for the company to keep any kind of momentum going.

Sadly the December Extreme Rising show was really good. I wasn't going to bother with it. But everytime I saw Luke Hawx he kept telling me how much he thought I would enjoy it. So got it and it is fun.

[Deleted]

Because ECW was one of those things that comes along that is impossible to recapture the magic of years later.

I do love how Axl Rotten almost always finds himself on these shows though, I didn't want to see the dude in '97 or whenever I damn sure don't want to see him now.

[agent817]

I am surprised nobody mentioned this:



I heard that was a bad PPV. Is it true?

[Deleted]

IMO, ECW worked because of booking and a concept that didn't rely on one person or rivalry in order to succeed.

If you look throughout its history, you can chart where people like the Public Enemy or Taz or RVD or even guys like Steve Corino where the main attractions and see when they started and, unless it was Dreamer, when they left. The concept was ultimately more important than the performers and it's that concept that needs to be reinvented.

A modern day ECW needs to be something else, not "barbed wire city" nor should it be like ROH or EVOLVE, it needs to be it's own product again, with new talent at the forefront and guys like Dreamer helping to cement the new roster.

[BlackoutCreature]

What too many people don't want to accept was that ECW was a reflection of 90's pop culture. It gave a generation of fans the kind of wrestling promotion they were looking for. But the 90's are over, for better or worse, and that generation has moved on. What's left behind is a niche group incapable of supporting a company like that anymore (hell they barely supported it during its glory days anyways).

[Blindkarevik]

An ECW Reunion show could draw insanely well.

Fifteen thousand ECW Reunion shows get to be overboard, lose their specialness, and stop drawing.