BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BigWill on Jun 17, 2013 13:54:31 GMT -5
I don't know. Sheamus has been a total dick for most of the last few months, and he's still supposed to be a babyface. In WWE, it seems like the bigger jerk you are, the bigger a babyface you're meant to be. The difference is, Sheamus usually gets cheered despite being a dick. I don't see how you can keep a jerk as a face when they're getting booed.
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Red
Don Corleone
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Post by Red on Jun 17, 2013 14:05:04 GMT -5
So, the OP of this thread didn't like Del Rio to begin with and, hey. FAN always makes threads about babyfaces being jerks. As OP of this thread, I have quite enjoyed Alberto as a baby face, way more than I had enjoyed him as a heel, but I always have to pick a side so I went with Ziggler. This match got a genuine reaction of me wanting to boo Del Rio after it was all said and done.
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Jonathan Michaels
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Jun 17, 2013 14:51:01 GMT -5
I thought it felt like an old fashioned double turn last night. Which means tonight on RAW, we'll have Cole talk about how Dolph is a bastard and Del Rio is the Champion of the People! I doubt that, the commentators were putting over Dolph's heart and Alberto's viciousness last night.
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
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Post by wisdomwizard on Jun 17, 2013 15:02:41 GMT -5
Much as I thought Del Rio was fine as a face, I'm hoping it's a double turn. Would love to see the cars and everything back, but no matter what alignment he is please give him some segments that flesh him out.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Jun 17, 2013 15:11:32 GMT -5
I haven't seen the match yet but if Del Rio was ruthless within the rules and beat Ziggler down while focusing on his head....so what? Ziggler screwed him by cashing in when he was hurting, so why should I care that Del Rio beat the crap out of him coming off a concussion? If Ziggler was cleared to wrestle then I fail to see how it's bad. It would be like if Ziggler had a shoulder injury and getting mad at ADR for targeting the arm/shoulder for his submission. Because it seemed like he wanted to hurt him rather than just win the match. As you said Ziggler was cleared to wrestle so the concussion thing should have been a non-factor and as a person trying to win the match Del Rio would've stuck to his ammo and worked the shoulder for the inevitable cross armbreaker. Instead he tried to injure Ziggler by going after his head. Plus it's not like Del Rio can be pissed at Ziggler for cashing in anyway since that's exactly what Del Rio did himself. I'll never get how people who have cashed in before can be pissed off about having it cashed in on themselves. That's why, in 2011, I liked that WWE had Cena go after Del Rio rather than Punk. I'd have preferred Punk to stay in the title scene but if they were going with a face having a problem with the cash-in I'm glad they used someone who made sense, like Cena, rather than someone who in theory should have no problem with it, like Punk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 15:13:48 GMT -5
I was loving Alberto going all JFK on Zigglers head. Yeah, we've never seen Alberto Del Rio be this aggressive before but at least for one night he actually looked ruthless instead of putting people in an armbar for an eternity.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jun 17, 2013 15:50:32 GMT -5
True. But rather than look at that as a microcosm of the time, he's went to the well over and over again today with a dated model, inventing dickhead babyfaces somehow targeted at children, whilst simultaneously promoting anti-bullying and supposed tolerance. The Attitude Era worked because it was an age of angst and mistrust of the system itself; and while more kids actually watched than today, it was a mature (well, immature , really) product promoted and served up to a group of angry young people who despised and mistrusted authority, power and wealth -- the primary targets of said babyface's wrath in those days. Today, the average heel is a hopeless buffoon; a veritable Wile E. Coyote. And we're supposed to eat up these heelish babyface antics and cheer on the Road Runner, just because. Being a dick really only works as a positive trait if the person's crimes you're tormenting vastly demands its use. And that's why, unlike Attitude, it often fails or backfires today. That said, my comment was more a knock on Vince's real life mindset, and not the business model. He's a real-life bullyish dickhead who picks on certain flawed or weak loyalists within his own company. My theory is that Vince loves Sheamus et al because he somehow sees this alpha male archetype character as just and admirable. Because that's how he'd see himself. in my opinion it took a long time before Austin's dickishness was justified by Vince's actions. In fact, Vince really didn't get that bad until Austin softened up enough to be willing to help him. while it's easy to feel sorry for Wile E. you can't overlook what happens if he wins. The other main character gets eaten. It's like if Sheamus doesn't go after Sandow. Then Sandow takes up tons of the audience's time and they don't get to see more wrestling matches. as for the thing with Alberto, yes he was a jerk, but still you can feel for the guy. As I recall Jack Swagger was constantly targeting his ankle even outside of matches and it was because of that that he lost the title to Ziggler. Then Ziggler is put out by Swagger forcing Alberto to win a shot he already had. And then he spends weeks dealing with his muscle. Your Austin example is how a lot of people feel about today's babyfaces. And the Road Runner analogy works only if you, at any point, care about the Road Runner as a character. Which hardly anyone did, hence everyone's desire to see Wile E. actually win. It wasn't Bugs Bunny, who while smarmy and an asshole, had a developed character that was amusing and charismatic. Road Runner, like some (not all) of WWE's top babyfaces won, just because. They never gave us a true reason to support him. And we'd actually cheer if he got eaten, because Wile E. was the underdog, and the one with all the charisma who was the draw of the act. As for Sheamus and Sandow, I know what you're saying; but again you have to assume that by that logic, everyone hates Sandow. They don't. Some love the guy, and laugh at his shtick and find it funny. So Sheamus being a dick and kicking the computer isn't their cup of tea because, to them, Sandow, absurdly bringing a super computer to prove his own vast intelligence is so ridiculously entertaining. And therein lies the true issue. Today's heels are far too entertaining. Or in the case of previous generation's heels, lack some intangible that despite vast charisma (Ted DiBiase, Rick Rude), there's just something alienating and unlikeable about their personas to which a well developed babyface is still the one people rally behind to beat them. And finally, I know what you're saying about Del Rio, and he was a victim of opportunity initially at the hands of Ziggler. HOWEVER, his targeting an injured man's concussed head for the duration of a match was not in any way justified or heroic or acceptable. A babyface's retribution should never exceed the brutality of the crimes perpetrated toward them. Because then, its not a hero's justice, its cold revenge, lacking any of the code and morality we're supposed to back and support in them. To put it into layman's terms: Del Rio could have kayfabed killed Ziggler, just to win a belt back that he could have just as easily won, using his usual offense. It was like a Superhero beating a simple bank robber to death. Not necessary.
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Post by salsashark on Jun 17, 2013 16:19:35 GMT -5
While this match hooked me in and somewhat endeared toward Ziggler (based heavily on Del Rio's A-grade kicks), why do people think of Ziggler as sympathetic (in kayfabe)? He's an arrogant heel flanked by a heavy and a bitchy, manipulative girlfriend. Ziggler used MITB to cash in the title without even turning face in the first place along the way (so it's different from when face Punk cashed in on Edge). What's sympathetic about one opportunist who got outwitted by another opportunist? Shouldn't Ziggler have kayfabe been smart enough to stay on the shelf until this concussion business was behind him?
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jun 17, 2013 16:48:50 GMT -5
While this match hooked me in and somewhat endeared toward Ziggler (based heavily on Del Rio's A-grade kicks), why do people think of Ziggler as sympathetic (in kayfabe)? He's an arrogant heel flanked by a heavy and a bitchy, manipulative girlfriend. Ziggler used MITB to cash in the title without even turning face in the first place along the way (so it's different from when face Punk cashed in on Edge). What's sympathetic about one opportunist who got outwitted by another opportunist? Shouldn't Ziggler have kayfabe been smart enough to stay on the shelf until this concussion business was behind him? It's human nature to pull for someone showing heart in an unwinnable scenario. That, and the many smart fans in the arena knew that Dolph had been legit hurt and had worked very hard to get to the top. The applause was appreciation was for the performer, not so much the character.
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Post by Parker Stiles on Jun 17, 2013 16:52:03 GMT -5
i've always hated him, always will. I usually like heels but him and Sheamus are 2 guys I'll never like
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 16:57:35 GMT -5
I haven't seen the match yet but if Del Rio was ruthless within the rules and beat Ziggler down while focusing on his head....so what? Ziggler screwed him by cashing in when he was hurting, so why should I care that Del Rio beat the crap out of him coming off a concussion? If Ziggler was cleared to wrestle then I fail to see how it's bad. It would be like if Ziggler had a shoulder injury and getting mad at ADR for targeting the arm/shoulder for his submission. Because it seemed like he wanted to hurt him rather than just win the match. As you said Ziggler was cleared to wrestle so the concussion thing should have been a non-factor and as a person trying to win the match Del Rio would've stuck to his ammo and worked the shoulder for the inevitable cross armbreaker. Instead he tried to injure Ziggler by going after his head. Plus, the nature of Dolph taking advantage of an injury situation and ADR doing the same are completely different. Dolph cashed in on a weakened Del Rio, which is the whole purpose of the Money in the Bank contract, and won fairly quickly, and the only time Dolph targeted the injury was as a reversal against the armbar. If I remember correctly, Del Rio's "injury" had him out of action for a week or two, and while a sprained ankle/leg/whatever the hell is bad, its not a debilitating injury really. ADR, meanwhile, f***ing went out to kill Dolph, well past the point of just "taking advantage of an injury" like working over the shoulder. He was basically defenseless and being tended to by a medic and ADR flew through the ropes to dropkick him in the back of the head. Plus we're dealing with a concussion, an injury which is also being featured in the whole Triple H mess as being terribly life altering and horrific and Del Rio was trying to decapitate him. In the context of a normal wrestling match, thats going well beyond just taking advantage of an injury.
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Chip
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Post by Chip on Jun 17, 2013 16:58:28 GMT -5
What's sympathetic about one opportunist who got outwitted by another opportunist? Shouldn't Ziggler have kayfabe been smart enough to stay on the shelf until this concussion business was behind him? The title clearly meant a lot to Ziggy, he pushed through a match that probably should have been ended long before it did and went down a fighting champion. It's hard not to feel something for someone when they lose something so important to them they openly cry on PPV.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BigWill on Jun 17, 2013 17:00:18 GMT -5
What's sympathetic about one opportunist who got outwitted by another opportunist? Shouldn't Ziggler have kayfabe been smart enough to stay on the shelf until this concussion business was behind him? The title clearly meant a lot to Ziggy, he pushed through a match that probably should have been ended long before it did and went down a fighting champion. It's hard not to feel something for someone when they lose something so important to them they openly cry on PPV. Thinking back... there was a lot of crying going on in that PPV.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 17:07:15 GMT -5
Absolutely that was a double turn, and it was AWESOME. Seriously loved that match, so dramatic. It reminded me of Matt Hardy vs. Edge, except the focus was more on Ziggler's never-say-die attitude than his getting his ass beat.
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Post by Unaffiliated on Jun 17, 2013 17:13:16 GMT -5
Regarding how "valid" a turn is, really depends on the execution. They had Ziggler display face characteristics by not wanting the match to end when it probably should have, and had Del Rio be perhaps excessively vicious with the offense, and that's what seals this probable double turn.
In theory, Del Rio did nothing wrong. Ziggler himself was pushing the doctors away, insisting he continue, when Del Rio kicked him in the head. He was also playing by the rules, and can argue that he did try pinning Ziggler after every move targeted at the head. It's not like he teased a pin and then pulled up at the two count or anything like that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 17:15:42 GMT -5
While this match hooked me in and somewhat endeared toward Ziggler (based heavily on Del Rio's A-grade kicks), why do people think of Ziggler as sympathetic (in kayfabe)? He's an arrogant heel flanked by a heavy and a bitchy, manipulative girlfriend. Ziggler used MITB to cash in the title without even turning face in the first place along the way (so it's different from when face Punk cashed in on Edge). What's sympathetic about one opportunist who got outwitted by another opportunist? Shouldn't Ziggler have kayfabe been smart enough to stay on the shelf until this concussion business was behind him? Alberto's still in the wrong, because he won the WWE title WITH A BRIEFCASE!!! himself, much to John Cena's dismay. CM Punk didn't try to maim Del Rio, he just kicked his ass and won the title back. He's got a really good angle going right now, he's somewhat justified but he's a total dick and showed malicious, sadistic qualities in the match last night. "Man of the people" Del Rio wasn't working out, I think this new direction has a chance. As for Ziggler, "Fighting Spirit" trumps bitchy girlfriend and boy-short wearing heavies.
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mrbananagrabber
King Koopa
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Post by mrbananagrabber on Jun 17, 2013 17:46:51 GMT -5
LOL when he booted AJ's title. I first read that as "LOL when he booted AJ's titties." I certainly didn't remember that bit.
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Post by KobashiChop on Jun 17, 2013 18:12:10 GMT -5
That right there was your Bret/Austin WM 13 double turn. Ziggler fought against everything with the heart of a champion, Del Rio cheapshotted him to the head mercilessly, just going for the kill regardless of any sense of babyface morality. They're both turning, or theyve both turned. Commentary acknowledged it.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jun 17, 2013 18:14:52 GMT -5
While this match hooked me in and somewhat endeared toward Ziggler (based heavily on Del Rio's A-grade kicks), why do people think of Ziggler as sympathetic (in kayfabe)? He's an arrogant heel flanked by a heavy and a bitchy, manipulative girlfriend. Ziggler used MITB to cash in the title without even turning face in the first place along the way (so it's different from when face Punk cashed in on Edge). What's sympathetic about one opportunist who got outwitted by another opportunist? Shouldn't Ziggler have kayfabe been smart enough to stay on the shelf until this concussion business was behind him? It's human nature to pull for someone showing heart in an unwinnable scenario. That, and the many smart fans in the arena knew that Dolph had been legit hurt and had worked very hard to get to the top. The applause was appreciation was for the performer, not so much the character. Ziggler getting cheers in general is for the performer and not the character.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jun 17, 2013 18:26:40 GMT -5
It's human nature to pull for someone showing heart in an unwinnable scenario. That, and the many smart fans in the arena knew that Dolph had been legit hurt and had worked very hard to get to the top. The applause was appreciation was for the performer, not so much the character. Ziggler getting cheers in general is for the performer and not the character. Yup. It's the same reason they were forced to turn HBK face after WrestleMania 11.
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