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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 8:57:56 GMT -5
I've said before, Cena isn't Superman. He's Captain Amazing from "Mystery Men". A relatively bland, corporate friendly mascot, who's so decisively beaten everyone that he's become boring. Cena has fundamental problems with his character. I find it impossible for him to be considered the underdog who defies the odds considering that he's huge and overmuscled. The odds are usually in his favour. I view underdogs as being small and plucky, not built like something that Nietzsche would have had sexual fantasies over. Ding. People have complained about him being Superman but he's not. Superman would be amazing. I would love for Cena to be Superman. This unstoppable ace of the company who represents an insanely difficult obstacle to overcome would be awesome. The times I've really liked Cena are when someone's called him out on pretending to be the underdog and Cena has flat out admitted "Yeah, you know what? I'm pretty goddamn awesome at this job." An athlete with Cena's track record constantly pretending they're barely getting the job done rings false. In MMA, when Couture came back and won the title from Sylvia he didn't give some big speech about how hard it was to overcome his age and he was the underdog and barely made it through on sheer force of will. No, because it's Randy and everyone knows he's awesome. So he smirked and said "Not bad for an old man huh?" Everyone loved it because they knew it was honest. He was a nice guy who was still the heavyweight industry standard. He didn't brag, but he was honest. The first time I started to sort of feel like Cena wasn't working for me was during the Triple H feud where Triple H said he wasn't a very good wrestler and instead of pointing out this this sub par wrestler had been wrecking everyone who came after him for a year, he just sort of took it and JR had to defend him on commentary. It just doesn't work. The WWE presents him as an Icon while he refuses to admit to it. Superman knows his power. Superman knows what an unstoppable force he is and he knows how he's looked on by the universe. He tries to represent a standard. I LOVE Cena in ring because he wrestles exactly the way a guy with his body type should. He's this big pile of weird, round shapes and his offensive style is all about flinging himself toward you. Even the way he punches subtly directs his upper body toward you. I appreciate how he gets across desperation by throwing out a new offensive move when he's in a big match (Every now and then he busts out a hurracanrana, for example). But then he comes out and he's all fart jokes and "underdog" and it's like...come on man.
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Post by grimbiniho on Oct 23, 2013 9:27:11 GMT -5
I think if prior to '03 someone had the idea for a character whom the kids and women loved and spent money to see win, and the older fans hated and spent money to see lose, we'd all see that as really fun, interesting booking. It's like shades of the Hart Foundation around '97 except on a bigger scale. There's so much you can do with a character like that. And sure, they've done most of it, and it's latest longer than just about anything else in wrestling history, (which means its probably gone on too long), but I think it was pretty modern and original thinking, and it did work. How many times have we seen the WWE be too stuck in the past - a heel starts to get cheered, so they turn him face, and then he immediately falls flat. It's because the fans enjoyed that heel character, and they didn't want him to change. It's really not some disaster in 2013 if a guy who is booked as a "heel" is cheered. With Cena though, they've just refused to do the traditional wrestling thing and turn him, and it's created some really interesting results, the likes of which we've never really seen before, at least for this long at the top of the card. If they turned him in 2005 or 2006 when the turns started, he probably would have gone back and forth 5 or 6 times in the years since, just like everybody else. I'm kind of a fan of the unique way they've handled this instead. That's a really good synopsis of a John Cena. I agree.
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Juice
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Post by Juice on Oct 23, 2013 9:32:59 GMT -5
I liked Cena a lot as the heel. then just a little as US champ, but even by then he was being super cena pushed. when he was stabbed and went off to film the Marine was glad as shit to have him away for a while. respect what he does in the ring, but pretty much haven't really liked him as aa personality since those days.
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 23, 2013 9:45:06 GMT -5
WWE need to just eliminate a few elements of his character. He needs to be less childish. No more stupid voices or poopy jokes. That alone would help improve his standing with older male fans. It also wouldn't harm his image among his younger fans. Kids loved DX and Stone Cold and the NWO. Kids want to be Han Solo, not Jar Jar Binks.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 23, 2013 9:47:53 GMT -5
As much as Cena would come off better if he actually acknowledged that he was "The Man", and the standard-bearer, he never will.
Because let's face it, Triple H still considers himself "The Man" and the standard-bearer, and he'll have none of the idea of it being anybody else.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Oct 23, 2013 11:58:49 GMT -5
But your point that he was responding to was that he always wins and he dominates all of his matches. Which is not true. So I'll rephrase it: he always dominates the MAIN EVENT. It just plain got boring to always see Cena at the top of the card, even when he was not champion and especially when he was facing the same opponents over and over. That's what did it for me in 2012. I understand WrestleMania and Extreme Rules, he had huge special attraction opponents. But when he main-evented a PPV against John freaking Laurinaitis rather than the WWE Title match going on last, I was done. I don't care if the WWE Champion was CM Punk or Santino, a novelty match against a non-wrestler had no right going on after the title match.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 23, 2013 15:54:39 GMT -5
I'll give his detractors this much- Cena constantly selling himself as an underdog is indeed tired, stupid and very much does ring hollow given all of his achievements, and WWE does need to knock that off already.
However, what they also need to quit doing is weaving his hatedom into the story in order to appease them, because that's done just as much damage (if not more) to his face character as the phony underdog bit. This might sound weird, but I don't think Cena comes off as a corporate puppet due to his Make-A-Wish segments and his endorsements, he comes off as a puppet mostly because WWE wants for fans at times to believe he is a puppet. Note how they'll have face wrestlers like HHH back in 2006, Rock, Punk and Bryan pushing the "fake/kiss ass/not a real wrestler" meme into the narrative.
There's an easy way to keep Cena face and make him "fresh". All they need to do is stop calling him an underdog, have him acknowledge that he's the best wrestler in the WWE and be proud of it, and push him as someone to be respected within kayfabe instead of a nude emperor. As mentioned, if he actually was sold as WWE's Superman, he'd be way better received.
Now before you say "well, they can't pretend his haters don't exist", I'm not asking for that necessarily, but having guys like Bryan- whom they want to present as someone with common sense- claiming the top face doesn't deserve his accolades, that's probably not the most constructive strategy. They can note if someone's booing Cena, but they can't keep egging on his boos the way they do and expect him to get a big face pop when the storyline requires it.
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 23, 2013 23:08:11 GMT -5
It would also help if Cena did things more in the name of his fans rather than WWE as an organisation. If he praises the support of the CeNation, that would be more endearing than being loyal to the "WWE" or the "WWE Universe" which makes him sound more like a corporate shill using management buzzwords than someone who genuinely stands for his own fanbase. He comes across less of a champion of his fans, and more like Ronald McDonald. Also, by claiming to stand for the WWE Universe as a whole, it builds bitterness towards him, because he's claiming to represent many fans who hate his guts. He doesn't even do it in an arrogantly hilarious way like the Rock, who claimed to be the People's Champion even when they booed him (even though they probably loved to hate him, as opposed to Cena who they simply hate outright).
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Oct 24, 2013 0:20:33 GMT -5
It's like we know what the WWE is trying to accomplish but it is at the expense of it's fans and then they blame the fans for crapping on it. WE are delusional, WE should cheer something we don't like, WE shouldn't support someone that the don't want to push, WE THE PEOPLE... sorry about that last one. No one dislike's Cena for his ability to be maineventer, people just dislike WWE's inability to challenge themselves past the initial "Wait, this could be a game-changer" moment since they live in fear. The crazy thing is that Cena's character is essentially THE heel we deal with every work day. He talks and acts like my full of shit boss.
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 24, 2013 1:19:36 GMT -5
WWE are like George Lucas. If the audience wasn't convinced by Padme and Anakin's epic romance, it's our fault. If we don't respect Lucas' artistic vision of shoving Hayden Christensen into Return of the Jedi, it's our fault. If we didn't know why the Clone Wars were occuring, it's our fault.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Oct 24, 2013 1:28:28 GMT -5
Didn't Lawler say on commentary once that people boo Cena 'cause they can't lift weights like he can? That's hilarious. Listen to the WWE Universe, LET'S GO SHEAMUS!
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Post by thetower52 on Oct 24, 2013 2:39:59 GMT -5
WWE are like George Lucas. If the audience wasn't convinced by Padme and Anakin's epic romance, it's our fault. If we don't respect Lucas' artistic vision of shoving Hayden Christensen into Return of the Jedi, it's our fault. If we didn't know why the Clone Wars were occuring, it's our fault. ....,I liked Hayden Christensen in return of the Jedi
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Oct 24, 2013 3:38:11 GMT -5
I've grown to appreciate Cena over the past couple of years but the WWE do themselves no favors by lazily trying to dismiss anyone who dislikes Cena as haters who are jealous as shit like this is going to make them hate the guy even more.
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 24, 2013 3:50:58 GMT -5
WWE are like George Lucas. If the audience wasn't convinced by Padme and Anakin's epic romance, it's our fault. If we don't respect Lucas' artistic vision of shoving Hayden Christensen into Return of the Jedi, it's our fault. If we didn't know why the Clone Wars were occuring, it's our fault. ....,I liked Hayden Christensen in return of the Jedi It made no logical sense whatsoever and was in no way an improvement over the original cut of the film
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Oct 24, 2013 9:01:14 GMT -5
It would also help if Cena did things more in the name of his fans rather than WWE as an organisation. If he praises the support of the CeNation, that would be more endearing than being loyal to the "WWE" or the "WWE Universe" which makes him sound more like a corporate shill using management buzzwords than someone who genuinely stands for his own fanbase. He comes across less of a champion of his fans, and more like Ronald McDonald. Also, by claiming to stand for the WWE Universe as a whole, it builds bitterness towards him, because he's claiming to represent many fans who hate his guts. He doesn't even do it in an arrogantly hilarious way like the Rock, who claimed to be the People's Champion even when they booed him (even though they probably loved to hate him, as opposed to Cena who they simply hate outright). it also didn't help that he once said he'd just quit and go home if he couldn't work for WWE.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 17:55:40 GMT -5
I don't like how it's kind of played both ways with the "I'm not gonna change who I am" stuff. They're playing that like that's the real guy, and he'd have to change his real-life personality. He's a character that a large portion of the fanbase has rejected. Thus, if he's to remain a babyface, he should tweak his character to be more liked by that portion of the fanbase, instead of acting as if they're somehow wrong for not liking him.
I think it's too far gone now though, he's not ever going to get full crowd support because it's been this way for so long and even reinforced by other wrestlers playing into it during angles. So, logic says he should turn heel. But "he's not going to change who he is" is like his entire gimmick. So, we're at this stalemate with his character, and it's been that way for at least 5 years. Something's got to break, and it should be his character, because creatively they should be catering to their customers, not the other way around.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 17:58:03 GMT -5
He truly is the unfunny version of Bo Dallas. or Dallas is the comical version of him.
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Post by sportatorium on Oct 24, 2013 18:46:37 GMT -5
I've said before, Cena isn't Superman. He's Captain Amazing from "Mystery Men". A relatively bland, corporate friendly mascot, who's so decisively beaten everyone that he's become boring. Cena has fundamental problems with his character. I find it impossible for him to be considered the underdog who defies the odds considering that he's huge and overmuscled. The odds are usually in his favour. I view underdogs as being small and plucky, not built like something that Nietzsche would have had sexual fantasies over. I see your point, but I also think lots of writers have tried to make an edgier Superman book & have been shot down with the "we have the Batman franchise for that". Superman/Action still sell well, but don't fly off shelves like it used to. The difference here is DC (or Marvel etc) can & will comfortably replace sacred cows. WWE doesn't seem to really ever want to. Cena can still be a top end babyface, but book him with some edgy imperfect qualities. He can still do make a wish & sell merch to kids without annoying everyone else in the process.
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on Oct 24, 2013 19:00:31 GMT -5
They are doing with Cena what they once did with Bret Hart, but in a different way.
Hart was at one point booked/portrayed as a heel in the U.S. and a babyface everywhere outside the U.S. It was brilliant and it worked.
But you can't do it that way anymore -- fans are more sophisticated, there is communication worldwide due to the 'net and national borders aren't the same.
Cena is now a babyface with the casuals/kids/marks and a heel with the smarks/IWC --- which is to say, he gets a babyface reaction from one faction and the heel reaction from the other..
I don't think the WWE created that situation on purpose or planned it that way, but they've gone with it. They have, and he has, acknoweldged the boos and detractors, rather than ignore them and pretending they aren't there. They have called him "the most controversial Superstar in history" or some variation of that, multiple times, in reference to the mixed reaction.
It is the modern, and more true, version of the Tweener -- I never understood how Austin was a Tweener when he was universally cheered. No matter how he was aligned, he was cheered.
I also never got why it's a big deal that "face" Cena gets a lot of boos but not a big deal when "heel" Edge (or Orton, etc., etc.) get cheers.
But I do believe that WWE is clearly conscious of this, and what has everyone all worked up is ... well, WWE working the people who don't like Cena to get just this kind of reaction.
And I think the idea of Cena "turning heel" is kind of absurd at this point, considering Cena already gets cheered by one large portion of the audience (more than half to my observation) but just as vehemently booed by the other portion. If he turned, the ones who cheer him now would boo him and the ones who boo him now would cheer ... until, 2-3 months later, they decided they didn't like how he was booked and then they'd not like what they asked for ... which would make the whole thing an epic fail.
Much better to have what is, lately, one of the most unique situations in WWE history, where the "face" of the company and No. 1 face on the roster is getting such a mixed reaction.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Oct 24, 2013 19:01:38 GMT -5
Didn't Lawler say on commentary once that people boo Cena 'cause they can't lift weights like he can? That's hilarious. The exact line was "Well you hear John Cena certainly has his detractors, his haters. You know what I was thinking earlier on when we saw that video footage of John Cena in that gym with those guys working out? I would like to see all these guys out here saying that "Cena Sucks" line up in that gym & try to lift some of those weights that John Cena dedicates himself to."
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