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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 21:48:08 GMT -5
I know what you're saying, but gender is most definitely an issue here. We can't judge actions in a cultural vacuum (though I'd love for them to be). It's not creepy or threatening though, I agree, which is why charges weren't pressed. She just wanted a record kept on the off-chance something came of it. Except she said herself if the same thing occurs, or if the guy tries to contact her, she will file to have him arrested. No, it's not harmless. And it's not able to be excused as some cultural difference, especially when it's still wrong. Actually it is harmless. All he has to do is take the hint and not contact her again. If you leave a girl a note and she doesn't respond - that means NO, contacting her again isn't the right move.
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J is Justice
Wade Wilson
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Post by J is Justice on Oct 23, 2013 21:49:04 GMT -5
This thread seems familiar...
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Post by Michael Coello on Oct 23, 2013 21:52:00 GMT -5
Except she said herself if the same thing occurs, or if the guy tries to contact her, she will file to have him arrested. No, it's not harmless. And it's not able to be excused as some cultural difference, especially when it's still wrong. Actually it is harmless. All he has to do is take the hint and not contact her again. If you leave a girl a note and she doesn't respond - that means NO, contacting her again isn't the right move. Yeah, don't contact her again OR YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. Totally harmless. The dude's still in the building, as well as the lady. Again, unless he read the news, he wouldn't know cause niether she nor the police actually contacted him. You mean to tell me that there's no chance that he, or another guy from there, runs into her and happens to calls her cute, and she thinks its him again and calls the police on him? Just asking here. that sounds insane.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 21:53:09 GMT -5
Also - if the genders were swapped I'd have the same opinion.
Women have just as much potential for craziness as men.
Just letting the authorities know about suspicious or potentially suspicious behavior doesn't ruin lives. NOT reporting it might.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 23, 2013 21:53:53 GMT -5
1) She doesn't know anything about this man, because he didn't give her any info about himself, bar a phone number. The inclusion of even a photograph would at least let her know who he is, and if needs be, allow her to avoid him. As it is, she has no idea. Anyone she passes on the street could be him. So instantly he's in even more of a position of power. 2) The only thing she knows is that he has judged her as sexually attractive. Like it or not, women are far more likely than men to be made victims of rape/sexual assault/etc. and regardless of whether you think it's paranoid, it's something people have to be aware of. There's plenty of perfectly innocent-seeming people out there who do horrible things. That's like a big red light flashing 'danger'. 3) If anything did happen, the way our society is set up, she'd probably be blamed, accused of leading him on, etc. Do the slightest hint of research, and you'll see hundreds if not thousands of cases. Society is more willing to look kindly on the rapist than someone who has been raped. This way, she has it in stone right from the beginning that she did not appreciate this attention and that it was not welcomed. If nothing else happens, great, no problems for either of them. If something does happen, that's something that can help with the wider problems in the legal system and the court of public opinion. 1) A phone number, his name, and the fact he lived in the building, probably more, but contact information seems a bit . And, if she acted like an adult, she could have asked around her friends if they knew anything, or her landlord or super of the building. 2) " Like it or not, women are far more likely than men to be made victims of rape/sexual assault/etc.". No they're not. and... 3) Irrelevant. You're already going 5 or 6 steps ahead of the situation. Again, they haven't even met yet, and already you're accusing the person of being a potential rapist and how it much blame gets thrown out to the woman after a rape that never occurred. just cause there are rapists out there doesn't mean you try to swipe at anyone that even can be construed as that, to "be safe". That's paranoia. Ah, the graphic that tries to force you to forget all previous statistics on rape because maybe some hypothetical guys might not have reported it and that makes all the testimonies of women who reported their rape before completely null and void. I'll go and tell my mum that when she was raped by her ex-husband, it totally didn't count because there might totally be some guys who didn't say anything in the past maybe. And can you please explain to me why a woman should be forced to go out of her way and stress herself out finding what other people might think of this guy they might not have met (or even meet the guy, as you say in your subsequent post) rather than just making the necessary precautions then carrying on with her own life?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 21:55:22 GMT -5
Actually it is harmless. All he has to do is take the hint and not contact her again. If you leave a girl a note and she doesn't respond - that means NO, contacting her again isn't the right move. Yeah, don't contact her again OR YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. Totally harmless. The dude's still in the building, as well as the lady. Again, unless he read the news, he wouldn't know cause niether she nor the police actually contacted him. You mean to tell me that there's no chance that he, or another guy from there, runs into her and happens to calls her cute, and she thinks its him again and calls the police on him? Just asking here. that sounds insane. Well, if its another guy, then that's a different case. If its the same guy, he should accept her non-response as an indicator to leave her alone. So he should leave her alone.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 23, 2013 21:55:34 GMT -5
Saying "they didn't meet" actually kind of makes her case for her, though. She feels uncomfortable about a message from a stranger that communicates desire for her; she's uncomfortable because she knows that a small percentage (though sadly large number) of guys might be a threat to her well-being, and getting a message that says, albeit in a benign way, "I know where you live" could easily be taken as a potential threat. Obviously she didn't take it as an overt threat, as she only reported it to the police, and didn't file something more severe (which she'd likely have no grounds for); however, she probably feels that if it happens again, then it DOES become a threat, since the repeating of the action is what could begin to constitute stalking. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, and the guy just made a misguided decision, no big deal. Had she reported him as a stalker or rapist, then there's a case to be made that she's taken paranoia too far. As it is, the news account depicts this as a precautionary action. Maybe the news account doesn't cover everything, but it's all we've got, so that's what we're analyzing. Anything else is conjecture. I do think the bigger discussion to be had here is why an anonymous letter could be construed as a potential threat by some people. It was mentioned before: leaving somebody a note like that may seem cute, but after about 6th grade or so it has the capacity to feel like an invasion of privacy. It's not an inherently bad act, in my opinion, but the issue is that it takes the other person's agency out of the equation; they get to receive the note, but they have no way to show if they even wanted it in the first place. At least when people speak face-to-face then we have a situation where people are on more equal footing, both being present, both being able to communicate either verbally or non-verbally how comfortable they are with the situation. As said many times before, I doubt the man in this story has bad intentions; however, it's still worth a discussion to get into why it's tough for another person to know what his intentions are, given the indirect way he went about things. Worth a discussion, not an attempt to rid the world of him. Again, do you mean to tell me this was at all justified, that this was the first, last and only defense for her? She couldn't have, I don't know, asked around the building from other places, or maybe have met him, but be joined by a group of her friends so she wouldn't be alone in case he was some psycho who likes kidnapping women and wearing their skin? She couldn't have at least done the common courtesy to actually talk to the person before passing judgement, as you and the rest of the crowd are doing, labeling him as some creepy would be rapist that needs to involve the police?! Really!? You're projecting a lot of things onto this woman that you have no way of knowing. You ask "why didn't she ask around the building", when you don't even know what her building is like, how many people there know one another, or how anybody else in the building would know the guy based on his phone number, etc. Given that I'm not her and don't know her circumstances, I fail to see the big deal with just telling the police "This situation made me uncomfortable, and I just want to have a note of it down in case something happens in the future". Maybe it was her best option. Maybe another person in the building knew the guy's phone number, maybe not. Maybe she DID ask around, and we simply haven't seen that reported. Again, conjecture. In the absence of any information, the best we can do is analyze the action that WAS taken, and in this case I see no real harm done. Like I just said above, you're removing all middle ground here: being cautious over something that was pretty creepy (regardless of the man's intentions) isn't the same as slapping a 'rapist' label on the guy's forehead or giving him any kind of a police record; it's a precaution, little more, little less.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 21:58:37 GMT -5
Worth a discussion, not an attempt to rid the world of him. Again, do you mean to tell me this was at all justified, that this was the first, last and only defense for her? She couldn't have, I don't know, asked around the building from other places, or maybe have met him, but be joined by a group of her friends so she wouldn't be alone in case he was some psycho who likes kidnapping women and wearing their skin? She couldn't have at least done the common courtesy to actually talk to the person before passing judgement, as you and the rest of the crowd are doing, labeling him as some creepy would be rapist that needs to involve the police?! Really!? You're projecting a lot of things onto this woman that you have no way of knowing. You ask "why didn't she ask around the building", when you don't even know what her building is like, how many people there know one another, or how anybody else in the building would know the guy based on his phone number, etc. Given that I'm not her and don't know her circumstances, I fail to see the big deal with just telling the police "This situation made me uncomfortable, and I just want to have a note of it down in case something happens in the future". Maybe it was her best option. Maybe another person in the building knew the guy's phone number, maybe not. Maybe she DID ask around, and we simply haven't seen that reported. Again, conjecture. In the absence of any information, the best we can do is analyze the action that WAS taken, and in this case I see no real harm done. Like I just said above, you're removing all middle ground here: being cautious over something that was pretty creepy (regardless of the man's intentions) isn't the same as slapping a 'rapist' label on the guy's forehead or giving him any kind of a police record; it's a precaution, little more, little less. I live in an apartment building. Most of us don't know each other unless we live right next to each other. Asking around wouldn't do jack in most apartments I bet.
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Post by Michael Coello on Oct 23, 2013 21:59:52 GMT -5
And can you please explain to me why a woman should be forced to go out of her way and stress herself out finding what other people might think of this guy they might not have met (or even meet the guy, as you say in your subsequent post) rather than just making the necessary precautions then carrying on with her own life? Because in real life, in human society, that is how we solve our problems. Again, what was the harm in her meeting him, with someone else at her side. Hell, she should have had the cops at least join her in meeting this person, and settle this out, rather than leave it unresolved for it to turn into something worse down the line. What you and Hmark and NNNN and the rest are doing is not any different from the story of the guy who was stopped on the street by cops cause they accused him of stealing a belt at Barney's he legally bought just cause he was black. He's guilty cause of who he may be, not what he did. Just what you're doing now. You can point out all the jargon you want to make your argument, but all you're doing is try to justify prejudice over something that really had nothing to do with the gender of either person.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 23, 2013 22:00:19 GMT -5
1) A phone number, his name, and the fact he lived in the building, probably more, but contact information seems a bit . And, if she acted like an adult, she could have asked around her friends if they knew anything, or her landlord or super of the building. 2) " Like it or not, women are far more likely than men to be made victims of rape/sexual assault/etc.". No they're not. and... 3) Irrelevant. You're already going 5 or 6 steps ahead of the situation. Again, they haven't even met yet, and already you're accusing the person of being a potential rapist and how it much blame gets thrown out to the woman after a rape that never occurred. just cause there are rapists out there doesn't mean you try to swipe at anyone that even can be construed as that, to "be safe". That's paranoia. Ah, the graphic that tries to force you to forget all previous statistics on rape because maybe some hypothetical guys might not have reported it and that makes all the testimonies of women who reported their rape before completely null and void. I'll go and tell my mum that when she was raped by her ex-husband, it totally didn't count because there might totally be some guys who didn't say anything in the past maybe. And can you please explain to me why a woman should be forced to go out of her way and stress herself out finding what other people might think of this guy they might not have met (or even meet the guy, as you say in your subsequent post) rather than just making the necessary precautions then carrying on with her own life? I can appreciate if you might feel frustration over that graphic, but please deal with the argument in a more straightforward manner; taking this tone isn't going to help the overall discussion and could potentially cause escalations that lead to a closure.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 23, 2013 22:01:04 GMT -5
Yeah, don't contact her again OR YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. Totally harmless. The dude's still in the building, as well as the lady. Again, unless he read the news, he wouldn't know cause niether she nor the police actually contacted him. You mean to tell me that there's no chance that he, or another guy from there, runs into her and happens to calls her cute, and she thinks its him again and calls the police on him? Just asking here. that sounds insane. Well, if its another guy, then that's a different case.If its the same guy, he should accept her non-response as an indicator to leave her alone. So he should leave her alone. I think that's an issue here. She doesn't know who the man is so she might take any compliment as it was from that guy. So Jimmy from the 2nd floor might get in trouble due to a confusion. This is a strike against the logic of going to the cops.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 22:02:38 GMT -5
Well, if its another guy, then that's a different case.If its the same guy, he should accept her non-response as an indicator to leave her alone. So he should leave her alone. I think that's an issue here. She doesn't know who the man is so she might take any compliment as it was from that guy. So Jimmy from the 2nd floor might get in trouble due to a confusion. This is a strike against the logic of going to the cops. The guy left his number. The "mistaken identity" thing doesn't really apply here.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 23, 2013 22:03:23 GMT -5
Ah, the graphic that tries to force you to forget all previous statistics on rape because maybe some hypothetical guys might not have reported it and that makes all the testimonies of women who reported their rape before completely null and void. I'll go and tell my mum that when she was raped by her ex-husband, it totally didn't count because there might totally be some guys who didn't say anything in the past maybe. And can you please explain to me why a woman should be forced to go out of her way and stress herself out finding what other people might think of this guy they might not have met (or even meet the guy, as you say in your subsequent post) rather than just making the necessary precautions then carrying on with her own life? I can appreciate if you might feel frustration over that graphic, but please deal with the argument in a more straightforward manner; taking this tone isn't going to help the overall discussion and could potentially cause escalations that lead to a closure. Hmm, ok then. I thought I was quite restrained there. Sarcastic, certainly, because that graphic deserves nothing but derision, but it's not like I was spewing profanities.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 23, 2013 22:04:11 GMT -5
And can you please explain to me why a woman should be forced to go out of her way and stress herself out finding what other people might think of this guy they might not have met (or even meet the guy, as you say in your subsequent post) rather than just making the necessary precautions then carrying on with her own life? Because in real life, in human society, that is how we solve our problems. Again, what was the harm in her meeting him, with someone else at her side. Hell, she should have had the cops at least join her in meeting this person, and settle this out, rather than leave it unresolved for it to turn into something worse down the line. What you and Hmark and NNNN and the rest are doing is not any different from the story of the guy who was stopped on the street by cops cause they accused him of stealing a belt at Barney's he legally bought just cause he was black. He's guilty cause of who he may be, not what he did. Just what you're doing now. You can point out all the jargon you want to make your argument, but all you're doing is try to justify prejudice over something that really had nothing to do with the gender of either person. Now you've constructed a strawman, and you're starting to edge into complete unreasonableness. To reiterate: -No cops were called to the scene here. -No arrests were made. -No "black marks" were added to anybody's record. However, you have chosen to construct a situation that doesn't exist to appease your own prejudices and biases. That's your prerogative. What isn't your prerogative is to project strawman arguments onto fellow posters. Do not do it again.
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Post by Michael Coello on Oct 23, 2013 22:04:40 GMT -5
Worth a discussion, not an attempt to rid the world of him. Again, do you mean to tell me this was at all justified, that this was the first, last and only defense for her? She couldn't have, I don't know, asked around the building from other places, or maybe have met him, but be joined by a group of her friends so she wouldn't be alone in case he was some psycho who likes kidnapping women and wearing their skin? She couldn't have at least done the common courtesy to actually talk to the person before passing judgement, as you and the rest of the crowd are doing, labeling him as some creepy would be rapist that needs to involve the police?! Really!? You're projecting a lot of things onto this woman that you have no way of knowing. You ask "why didn't she ask around the building", when you don't even know what her building is like, how many people there know one another, or how anybody else in the building would know the guy based on his phone number, etc. Given that I'm not her and don't know her circumstances, I fail to see the big deal with just telling the police "This situation made me uncomfortable, and I just want to have a note of it down in case something happens in the future". Maybe it was her best option. Maybe another person in the building knew the guy's phone number, maybe not. Maybe she DID ask around, and we simply haven't seen that reported. Again, conjecture. In the absence of any information, the best we can do is analyze the action that WAS taken, and in this case I see no real harm done. Like I just said above, you're removing all middle ground here: being cautious over something that was pretty creepy (regardless of the man's intentions) isn't the same as slapping a 'rapist' label on the guy's forehead or giving him any kind of a police record; it's a precaution, little more, little less. I'm the one projecting a lot? who was the side that brought mansplaining and rape culture into this discussion that didn't warrant it, HMark? The problem with the situation was that it didn't do anything. It did nothing to actually resolve the situation, cause there was no attempt made by her or anyone, as explained in the report in the OP, to at least get the two sides. That's a big problem. And it's a big problem when it's now apparently seen as normal to just assume any person that does anything to try to speak with you is considered a threat and need to be protected from. That isn't right, and not how problems are solved.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 22:05:14 GMT -5
And can you please explain to me why a woman should be forced to go out of her way and stress herself out finding what other people might think of this guy they might not have met (or even meet the guy, as you say in your subsequent post) rather than just making the necessary precautions then carrying on with her own life? Because in real life, in human society, that is how we solve our problems. Again, what was the harm in her meeting him, with someone else at her side. Hell, she should have had the cops at least join her in meeting this person, and settle this out, rather than leave it unresolved for it to turn into something worse down the line. What you and Hmark and NNNN and the rest are doing is not any different from the story of the guy who was stopped on the street by cops cause they accused him of stealing a belt at Barney's he legally bought just cause he was black. He's guilty cause of who he may be, not what he did. Just what you're doing now. You can point out all the jargon you want to make your argument, but all you're doing is try to justify prejudice over something that really had nothing to do with the gender of either person. Not really the same. No accusations were made in this case. Just notification that something happened. Two VERY different things.
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Post by Michael Coello on Oct 23, 2013 22:08:01 GMT -5
Because in real life, in human society, that is how we solve our problems. Again, what was the harm in her meeting him, with someone else at her side. Hell, she should have had the cops at least join her in meeting this person, and settle this out, rather than leave it unresolved for it to turn into something worse down the line. What you and Hmark and NNNN and the rest are doing is not any different from the story of the guy who was stopped on the street by cops cause they accused him of stealing a belt at Barney's he legally bought just cause he was black. He's guilty cause of who he may be, not what he did. Just what you're doing now. You can point out all the jargon you want to make your argument, but all you're doing is try to justify prejudice over something that really had nothing to do with the gender of either person. Now you've constructed a strawman, and you're starting to edge into complete unreasonableness. To reiterate: -No cops were called to the scene here. -No arrests were made. -No "black marks" were added to anybody's record. However, you have chosen to construct a situation that doesn't exist to appease your own prejudices and biases. That's your prerogative. What isn't your prerogative is to project strawman arguments onto fellow posters. Do not do it again. How am I making a strawmen?! i'm sticking to the actual incident, while you and the rest are bringing up the creepiness of the dude and rape and sexual assault figures. I haven't strayed from the topic or what is known. Don't lie to me. I know what I wrote, what you wrote, and what everyone else wrote cause it's out in the open and posted.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Oct 23, 2013 22:08:44 GMT -5
What you and Hmark and NNNN and the rest are doing is not any different from the story of the guy who was stopped on the street by cops cause they accused him of stealing a belt at Barney's he legally bought just cause he was black. He's guilty cause of who he may be, not what he did. Just what you're doing now. You can point out all the jargon you want to make your argument, but all you're doing is try to justify prejudice over something that really had nothing to do with the gender of either person. Yes, we burned the village in order to save it. You do realize that there is a correlation between the unfair treatment of black people for the very reason they are black with that of the unfair treatment of women because they are women as it relates to experiences of violence and unfair treatment under the law, right? We're the real sexists and racists for pointing out that racism and sexism exist. Then again, you're right. As a famous empiricist of our time said: there are known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. What we're dealing with is a situation that is an unknown unknown insofar that it could have played out in any number of ways, all of which as a probability are likely as argumentatively valid. Equally meaningful? To that I remain unconvinced.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,436
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 23, 2013 22:09:38 GMT -5
And can you please explain to me why a woman should be forced to go out of her way and stress herself out finding what other people might think of this guy they might not have met (or even meet the guy, as you say in your subsequent post) rather than just making the necessary precautions then carrying on with her own life? Because in real life, in human society, that is how we solve our problems. Again, what was the harm in her meeting him, with someone else at her side. Hell, she should have had the cops at least join her in meeting this person, and settle this out, rather than leave it unresolved for it to turn into something worse down the line. What you and Hmark and NNNN and the rest are doing is not any different from the story of the guy who was stopped on the street by cops cause they accused him of stealing a belt at Barney's he legally bought just cause he was black. He's guilty cause of who he may be, not what he did. Just what you're doing now. You can point out all the jargon you want to make your argument, but all you're doing is try to justify prejudice over something that really had nothing to do with the gender of either person. The only judgements I've made on him are from the actions that he indisputably performed (unless we're now doubting he put the note there) which seem incredibly creepy to me and the woman who received the note. The rest of what I've said is trying to explain how her actions are logical for her, things that will cause no backlash for him but could well save her IF he is dangerous. The case in "Barney's" involves someone making a snap judgement towards someone of a minority that's often attacked, in a court system that will undoubtedly be biased against him, not based on his actions but based on preconceived notions, and not to protect anyone's safety but because they thought a buckle looked too expensive. It's apples and oranges.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 22:10:39 GMT -5
Here's this story in a nutshell, because the guy was a pussy and didn't talk to her in person she went to the police. If the guy had talked to her in the parking lot and said the exact same thing that the note said and he was normal about it and she told him that she wasn't interested would she call the police? Of course not, but because he is either socially awkward or thought that he was being clever/romantic/whatever she went to the police. Sure there is a slight possibility that the guy is a psycho but if one lives their life overreacting to every little thing it's going to be a miserable existence. I contend that she should have kept the note and told some of her family/friends about it so that others know who left it, and if the guy keeps leaving notes or escalates in other ways then get the police involved.
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