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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Jan 4, 2014 0:35:44 GMT -5
It's not surprising that WWE is regressing into its meathead hiring policies. Triple H is the guy who subjected us to a posedown with Steiner a decade ago. There's a reason why he got along so famously with Vince before he started sticking it to his daughter, and that's that they share the same erotic love of muscular oiled men. They live in a bubble that exists solely in the gym and the boardroom, so they can't see how the modern audience really doesn't give a damn.
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
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Post by Chip on Jan 4, 2014 1:57:02 GMT -5
Honestly, almost every non-fan I've spoken to still believes wrestling is filled with steroid injecting meat-heads that wrestle like Hulkamania happened a week ago. The big dudes are usually the reason they don't watch, rather then being a draw. According to my group of friends, who don't like wrestling and find it lightweight/goofy/redneck/trashy/stupid etc., guys like CM Punk, The Shield, The Wyatt Family, and Brock Lesnar are cool and if there were more people like that they'd be more apt to watch. They like shows like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc. From what I can tell, and I may be wrong since I tend to exist in my own bubble in terms of entertainment, those shows represent things that are A. cool to like and B. critically acclaimed. Those two things go hand in hand. Good critical reception leads to positive word-of-mouth leads to interest. So what's the common ground between those guys? A certain level of coolness/aura. No campy stuff. Some character depth. Badasses kickin assholes' asses. It's not all about body type, or all about workrate. It's more nuanced than that. I think WWE realizes that...but I'm not sure. Market research leads to less-then-nuanced thinking, sometimes. My first guess is to say that those performers aren't defined by the fact they are wrestlers. A guy like Orton, whether you love him or hate him, is kinda defined by the fact he's a wrestler and it's hard as a non-fan to grow to like him, it's really a case of you having to already be a fan to like him. I guess it's why a guy like Stone Cold managed to get so big, wrestling was just something he happened to do, it didn't define him or his character.
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Post by Super Nintenjoe KBD on Jan 4, 2014 11:12:24 GMT -5
Not to get political but yikes! Looks like the new world order are infesting the WWE again
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 12:21:37 GMT -5
My thing is, you should be able to look like you can win a real fight. That's why I think the Miz was a terrible choice as champion. Who is going to buy him winning a real fight against guys like Cena? Same goes for Rey. Some guys are not lucky with height, weight, etc, and that's fine, they have a place in the company, but there should be some level of believability involved.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 12:55:57 GMT -5
My thing is, you should be able to look like you can win a real fight. That's why I think the Miz was a terrible choice as champion. Who is going to buy him winning a real fight against guys like Cena? Same goes for Rey. Some guys are not lucky with height, weight, etc, and that's fine, they have a place in the company, but there should be some level of believability involved. Yeah small people never win real fights Sorry you wan't believability and Realizism here it is short guys can win fights why because of skill you want to make fake fighting look more real take note from real fighting
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 4, 2014 13:17:55 GMT -5
My thing is, you should be able to look like you can win a real fight. That's why I think the Miz was a terrible choice as champion. Who is going to buy him winning a real fight against guys like Cena? Same goes for Rey. Some guys are not lucky with height, weight, etc, and that's fine, they have a place in the company, but there should be some level of believability involved. Yeah small people never win real fights Sorry you wan't believability and Realizism here it is short guys can win fights why because of skill you want to make fake fighting look more real take note from real fighting Obviously some smaller guys can beat bigger guys in real life. But in putting forth a presentation like professional wrestling, some find it better to have bigger guys that look like they can hurt you (even if they can't really) being the guys pushed the most over the smaller guys who may have better technical skills. It's just a preference.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 13:34:16 GMT -5
Yeah small people never win real fights Sorry you wan't believability and Realizism here it is short guys can win fights why because of skill you want to make fake fighting look more real take note from real fighting Obviously some smaller guys can beat bigger guys in real life. But in putting forth a presentation like professional wrestling, some find it better to have bigger guys that look like they can hurt you (even if they can't really) being the guys pushed the most over the smaller guys who may have better technical skills. It's just a preference. He said believabillity for me believabillity means what actually happens now if he had said his preference was big guys it would have been different he said that it takes big guys for believabillity
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jan 4, 2014 13:42:20 GMT -5
Honestly, almost every non-fan I've spoken to still believes wrestling is filled with steroid injecting meat-heads that wrestle like Hulkamania happened a week ago. The big dudes are usually the reason they don't watch, rather then being a draw. According to my group of friends, who don't like wrestling and find it lightweight/goofy/redneck/trashy/stupid etc., guys like CM Punk, The Shield, The Wyatt Family, and Brock Lesnar are cool and if there were more people like that they'd be more apt to watch. They like shows like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc. From what I can tell, and I may be wrong since I tend to exist in my own bubble in terms of entertainment, those shows represent things that are A. cool to like and B. critically acclaimed. Those two things go hand in hand. Good critical reception leads to positive word-of-mouth leads to interest. So what's the common ground between those guys? A certain level of coolness/aura. No campy stuff. Some character depth. Badasses kickin assholes' asses. It's not all about body type, or all about workrate. It's more nuanced than that. I think WWE realizes that...but I'm not sure. Market research leads to less-then-nuanced thinking, sometimes. Yeah, I'm not sure that WWE is looking for the critically acclaimed TV crowd, I think they're more looking for the Michael Bay summer blockbuster crowd
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 14:19:19 GMT -5
Obviously some smaller guys can beat bigger guys in real life. But in putting forth a presentation like professional wrestling, some find it better to have bigger guys that look like they can hurt you (even if they can't really) being the guys pushed the most over the smaller guys who may have better technical skills. It's just a preference. He said believabillity for me believabillity means what actually happens now if he had said his preference was big guys it would have been different he said that it takes big guys for believabillity When did I say you have to be "big"? I said you have to look believable. Put Floyd Mayweather (ignoring his boxing career) in the ring against Miz, and Mayweather looks like he would kick his ass, and I'm guessing Miz has the size/height/weight advantage over him. That's the whole point. You don't push a guy who doesn't LOOK like he can fight, unless he is so great at everything else that it compensates for it (i.e. Jeff hardy, CM Punk, etc). Those guys are rare, though. Maybe the Miz can fight in real life, but if he doesn't look like he can, then it's not going to go over well in a form of entertainment almost entirely based on look. That's probably why guys like Benoit and Eddie juiced as much as they did, to compensate for their height. If Benoit had CM Punk's body, he never would have been given a second look because he couldn't talk to save his life. I knew someone was going to overreact and take what I said to mean that everyone should look like Don Muraco. No, that is not what I said or implied. You have to look like you can beat somebody up, especially in a fictional world. It is amazing to me that the biggest draws in pro wrestling history are guys like Hogan, Bruno, Andre, Austin, Rock, etc, and people blame Vince/HHH for having their mindset. When the company built around a Cruiserweight sized stripper who could wrestle his ass off, they almost went out of business. The audience has changed, but not the way people expect. MMA fans don't look at size as much as WWE does because one is a sport, and the other isn't. You have to be able to market someone. My favorites of all-time are Hogan, Rock, and Warrior, but my liking to them has little to do with size, it has to do with a combination of character, presence, charisma, etc. You can compensate for size, but you have to be great at everything else to do it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 16:57:21 GMT -5
He said believabillity for me believabillity means what actually happens now if he had said his preference was big guys it would have been different he said that it takes big guys for believabillity When did I say you have to be "big"? I said you have to look believable. Put Floyd Mayweather (ignoring his boxing career) in the ring against Miz, and Mayweather looks like he would kick his ass, and I'm guessing Miz has the size/height/weight advantage over him. That's the whole point. You don't push a guy who doesn't LOOK like he can fight, unless he is so great at everything else that it compensates for it (i.e. Jeff hardy, CM Punk, etc). Those guys are rare, though. Maybe the Miz can fight in real life, but if he doesn't look like he can, then it's not going to go over well in a form of entertainment almost entirely based on look. That's probably why guys like Benoit and Eddie juiced as much as they did, to compensate for their height. If Benoit had CM Punk's body, he never would have been given a second look because he couldn't talk to save his life. I knew someone was going to overreact and take what I said to mean that everyone should look like Don Muraco. No, that is not what I said or implied. You have to look like you can beat somebody up, especially in a fictional world. It is amazing to me that the biggest draws in pro wrestling history are guys like Hogan, Bruno, Andre, Austin, Rock, etc, and people blame Vince/HHH for having their mindset. When the company built around a Cruiserweight sized stripper who could wrestle his ass off, they almost went out of business. The audience has changed, but not the way people expect. MMA fans don't look at size as much as WWE does because one is a sport, and the other isn't. You have to be able to market someone. My favorites of all-time are Hogan, Rock, and Warrior, but my liking to them has little to do with size, it has to do with a combination of character, presence, charisma, etc. You can compensate for size, but you have to be great at everything else to do it. This is all you left me to go on There is no mention in there about cm punk or Mayweather just hey these small guys aren't believable miz sucks[Agreed] and if you had mentioned that some small people fit i would never have gotten all internet angry
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jan 4, 2014 18:40:34 GMT -5
According to my group of friends, who don't like wrestling and find it lightweight/goofy/redneck/trashy/stupid etc., guys like CM Punk, The Shield, The Wyatt Family, and Brock Lesnar are cool and if there were more people like that they'd be more apt to watch. They like shows like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc. From what I can tell, and I may be wrong since I tend to exist in my own bubble in terms of entertainment, those shows represent things that are A. cool to like and B. critically acclaimed. Those two things go hand in hand. Good critical reception leads to positive word-of-mouth leads to interest. So what's the common ground between those guys? A certain level of coolness/aura. No campy stuff. Some character depth. Badasses kickin assholes' asses. It's not all about body type, or all about workrate. It's more nuanced than that. I think WWE realizes that...but I'm not sure. Market research leads to less-then-nuanced thinking, sometimes. Yeah, I'm not sure that WWE is looking for the critically acclaimed TV crowd, I think they're more looking for the Michael Bay summer blockbuster crowd So lowest common denominator?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jan 4, 2014 19:11:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not sure that WWE is looking for the critically acclaimed TV crowd, I think they're more looking for the Michael Bay summer blockbuster crowd So lowest common denominator? yes
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 19:11:47 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not sure that WWE is looking for the critically acclaimed TV crowd, I think they're more looking for the Michael Bay summer blockbuster crowd So lowest common denominator? A lot of their written humor does bring to mind modern-day Adam Sandler comedies.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 4, 2014 19:32:16 GMT -5
According to my group of friends, who don't like wrestling and find it lightweight/goofy/redneck/trashy/stupid etc., guys like CM Punk, The Shield, The Wyatt Family, and Brock Lesnar are cool and if there were more people like that they'd be more apt to watch. They like shows like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc. From what I can tell, and I may be wrong since I tend to exist in my own bubble in terms of entertainment, those shows represent things that are A. cool to like and B. critically acclaimed. Those two things go hand in hand. Good critical reception leads to positive word-of-mouth leads to interest. So what's the common ground between those guys? A certain level of coolness/aura. No campy stuff. Some character depth. Badasses kickin assholes' asses. It's not all about body type, or all about workrate. It's more nuanced than that. I think WWE realizes that...but I'm not sure. Market research leads to less-then-nuanced thinking, sometimes. Yeah, I'm not sure that WWE is looking for the critically acclaimed TV crowd, I think they're more looking for the Michael Bay summer blockbuster crowdWWE isn't that high-brow
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Post by celticjobber on Jan 4, 2014 19:37:05 GMT -5
So lowest common denominator? A lot of their written humor does bring to mind modern-day Adam Sandler comedies. I have a feeling Vince McMahon would love Sander's "Jack & Jill".
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jan 4, 2014 19:38:12 GMT -5
There's a wrestler on another forum who has contacts within NXT who says he was told the reason the Wolves weren't signed wasn't their size or ability, but because they were ignoring a ref's call to 'go home' during a match.
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Jan 4, 2014 19:46:02 GMT -5
There's a wrestler on another forum who has contacts within NXT who says he was told the reason the Wolves weren't signed wasn't their size or ability, but because they were ignoring a ref's call to 'go home' during a match. That sounds like something I could believe more than size.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jan 4, 2014 19:59:44 GMT -5
On the size issue, I watched the Wolves and from what I understand the Ascension are big but not huge. But to me Daniel Bryan stand up to the WWE's superheavyweights than these guys did.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 4, 2014 20:24:15 GMT -5
My thing is, you should be able to look like you can win a real fight. That's why I think the Miz was a terrible choice as champion. Who is going to buy him winning a real fight against guys like Cena? Same goes for Rey. Some guys are not lucky with height, weight, etc, and that's fine, they have a place in the company, but there should be some level of believability involved. The difference is...if you don't look the part, you need to make the people believe you're the part or give them a reason to look past the fact that you look like a twerp. Rey sort of did that. Miz didn't. I understand they may want some people who bring a presence but aren't the greatest wrestlers. Look at Sid. Those kind of guys are very rare, and usually aren't worth pushing to the moon, unless the crowd goes for them. Most physical adonises in wrestling today don't get the kind of reaction they did 20 years ago.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Jan 4, 2014 22:30:56 GMT -5
And it just so happens that one of them gets injured in their match by The Ascension. Why can't i get the image of Triple H backstage telling Connor and Viktor to make an example of them out of my mind? Sweep the leg.
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