mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jan 26, 2014 2:41:11 GMT -5
I certainly don't hate the guy. My tolerance of him has become more moderate, due to the fact that I don't find him a threat to the WWE title anymore, along with making improvements to his look and wrestling a style that at least is more fitting of someone like him. That said, he's still well out of his league. To me, he'll forever be the poster child of having too much too soon, or the most undeserving champion ever, because he fit the model in both cases. While there might have been people in the past who couldn't have been less interested in becoming champion, at least when they did, they looked or wrestled the part. When it happened with Miz, I immediately found myself questioning the decision made because nothing warranted it. I've tirelessly addressed every problem in the past regarding his time as champion, and at the end of the day, whatever the booking did, he didn't do himself any favors either. No matter how awful the writing can be, if you're still a major part of the show, let alone champion...you still have it made. Miz had 160 days to prove to me why he was THE guy, and he didn't do it. You can argue that feuding with Lawler or being a 3rd wheel in a Cena/Rock program didn't help him, but I guarantee if you put Ziggler or Punk in that same situation, they could make it work or at least keep you engaged until they moved on. Miz does not have this ability. He was doomed from the start because he never should have been there to begin with. Miz could never be THE guy and shouldn't have been placed in that position. And no, Ziggler would not have made it work. Punk would have, not Ziggler. Ziggler would fail at it for the same reasons Miz did, and Miz is a better talker than Ziggler by a fair margin. I've always felt that Miz's mic skills are vastly overrated. And it's not just mic skills, it's overall presentation. Hell, if you get a guy who looks the part and wrestles the part, then there's no reason for him to ever really NEED to sell you. In this new WWE age, they would make you want to believe that, and honestly I would rather have a champion who could carry himself on the mic, but at the end of the day, all that matters is that I'm convinced that this guy is real. Miz was not real.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 2:41:57 GMT -5
IMO Miz shouldn't have won the world title. Not because he sucks and doesn't deserve it, but because he was excellent as a gatekeeper heel who you have to deal with on the way. Heel Miz was MADE for the upper card (Yes upper card, I'm trying to phase out the term "upper mid card" please join me) and he should have hung out there. Much like Kane. I think Miz was the type of guy who you give the world title to after becoming a major face (which obviously is never happening at this rate). At the time, he was getting huge pops despite being a top heel and if he turned face in a major way, he would have easily been a strong champion. Instead they went the obvious route of MITB -> Weaselly heel champion. In hindsight it might have been better to actually turn him face while he was world champ, if anything. Not before, but AFTER winning it. Do Cena/Miz as a face/face match since that leads to Cena's best work. Miz's heelishness was always relatively comical so he could be turned face pretty easily at any time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 2:48:39 GMT -5
Miz could never be THE guy and shouldn't have been placed in that position. And no, Ziggler would not have made it work. Punk would have, not Ziggler. Ziggler would fail at it for the same reasons Miz did, and Miz is a better talker than Ziggler by a fair margin. I've always felt that Miz's mic skills are vastly overrated. And it's not just mic skills, it's overall presentation. Hell, if you get a guy who looks the part and wrestles the part, then there's no reason for him to ever really NEED to sell you. In this new WWE age, they would make you want to believe that, and honestly I would rather have a champion who could carry himself on the mic, but at the end of the day, all that matters is that I'm convinced that this guy is real. Miz was not real. It's not so much that Miz is some top notch mic worker. He isn't. He's decent enough, but he isn't. What he is though, is an obnoxious twerp. Ziggler has his "show off" thing which I don't think he's ever really done well at making a particularly heelish persona out of. It seems like it SHOULD be heelish...and it kinda is I guess, but it just doesn't translate well. I say this as a fan of Ziggler. He never really seemed very dislikeable. As for Miz convincing you he's "real", I know what you mean. As I said, I don't think he should have been WWE champ. It probably ruined his career.
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Post by Sponsored by Groose Wipes on Jan 26, 2014 2:56:50 GMT -5
When The Miz had the belt as a heel, he was a good heel champ. EVERYONE hated him. I think the main issue is once he lost the title, there was no where else for him to go. Also having The Miz as a face just confuses me. Miz solidified himself as a top heel when he won the belt and there's really no going back because now everyone looks at him as a top heel guy.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 26, 2014 2:57:53 GMT -5
It's not so much that Miz is some top notch mic worker. He isn't. He's decent enough, but he isn't. What he is though, is an obnoxious twerp. Ziggler has his "show off" thing which I don't think he's ever really done well at making a particularly heelish persona out of. It seems like it SHOULD be heelish...and it kinda is I guess, but it just doesn't translate well. I say this as a fan of Ziggler. He never really seemed very dislikeable. As for Miz convincing you he's "real", I know what you mean. As I said, I don't think he should have been WWE champ. It probably ruined his career. You mention that Ziggler isn't dislikable. Well yeah, exactly. I can tell you, that given a strong position on the card, the fans will care about what he's doing. A Ziggler in Miz's position during the Rock/Cena thing would be so so easy to do. Seeing as he IS the show off, he could very easily use that as a means of the whole "what do I have to do to get your attention"? Again, this goes far beyond promos. If you take a look at the modern history of WWE champions, how many of those guys couldn't cut a great promo to save their life, yet go out there and prove they're good? Now...how many of those champions could cut an okay promo, but then proceed to have a bunch of shitty matches with zero psychology? That's all I'm getting at here. A Punk or a Ziggler would rise to the occasion based on the booking that is handed to them. Look at Cena/Ziggler from a little over a year ago...dude was top notch. We could have had that at Wrestlemania 27. We could have had Punk/Cena at Wrestlemania 27. *sigh*
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 26, 2014 2:58:36 GMT -5
I've always felt that Miz's mic skills are vastly overrated. And it's not just mic skills, it's overall presentation. Hell, if you get a guy who looks the part and wrestles the part, then there's no reason for him to ever really NEED to sell you. In this new WWE age, they would make you want to believe that, and honestly I would rather have a champion who could carry himself on the mic, but at the end of the day, all that matters is that I'm convinced that this guy is real. Miz was not real. It's not so much that Miz is some top notch mic worker. He isn't. He's decent enough, but he isn't. What he is though, is an obnoxious twerp. Ziggler has his "show off" thing which I don't think he's ever really done well at making a particularly heelish persona out of. It seems like it SHOULD be heelish...and it kinda is I guess, but it just doesn't translate well. I say this as a fan of Ziggler. He never really seemed very dislikeable. As for Miz convincing you he's "real", I know what you mean. As I said, I don't think he should have been WWE champ. It probably ruined his career. Miz has more value to the company as a "failed" main eventer than he would have if he never got pushed to that point. Same goes for Ziggler. I honestly think that if Miz were never champion, he'd be primarily on the C-shows right now once the Brand Split ended and the "main eventers" (which includes himself and Dolph) started oversaturating both RAW and SmackDown. He'd be an even bigger non-entity than he is now. As far as Miz has fallen, he still has this perceived "importance" above a good chunk of the roster. He's still a "top guy" in the eyes of the Little Jimmies and casuals; he still appears on promotional material and the like. He makes red carpet appearances and appears at sporting events. He'd have none of that if he never won the title. You don't see guys like Ryder, Yoshi, Riley, JTG, 3MB etc. making the media rounds.
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schma
Hank Scorpio
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Post by schma on Jan 26, 2014 3:14:05 GMT -5
I don't watch regularly but I did tune in a few times. When Miz first showed up I hated him (probably unfairly because of his reality star status). The fact that he overcame the reality star poser rep says something. His run as WWE champ I enjoyed. He had some excellent matches with people you might not expect it from. His attempts at regaining attention as the champ and warning Rock and Cena not to forget about him were commendable I thought. He delivered some excellent promos. That said his promos are not always great but he has had some really good ones.
That said from what I've seen since (again not a regular viewer) it seems like he's trying to live on that accomplishment (Main eventing and winning Wrestlemania), much in the way that Jericho was all about being the first undisputed champ for a long time. In Miz TV I get the feeling they're trying to evoke classic Piper while keeping it PG. As for his weaselly title run, I think it evoked Flair a bit. Don't get me wrong, Miz can't touch Flair on the mic.
However, think about it. Flair was not the biggest, not the strongest. He had endurance and presence and skill. The thing though that ran through his career whether he was heel or face was that he was the dirtiest player in the game. He would do whatever he had to in order to win. I feel like that is the angle they really should have gone with Miz as champ and post champ. Like so many who aren't in the main event now he seems to be meandering. Whether that's because he isn't really trying hard anymore or another example of WWE creative failing its stars is another debate. Still, I think they could turn it around.
If you had told me a few years ago that Kane would have a run where he beats Taker multiple times and gets the Championship along the way I might not have believed it. He was always on the cusp but one of those guys you never expect to take the belt home. The Miz can come back from this. The question is will he. Maybe he needs that time off like someone previously mentioned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 3:25:29 GMT -5
It's not so much that Miz is some top notch mic worker. He isn't. He's decent enough, but he isn't. What he is though, is an obnoxious twerp. Ziggler has his "show off" thing which I don't think he's ever really done well at making a particularly heelish persona out of. It seems like it SHOULD be heelish...and it kinda is I guess, but it just doesn't translate well. I say this as a fan of Ziggler. He never really seemed very dislikeable. As for Miz convincing you he's "real", I know what you mean. As I said, I don't think he should have been WWE champ. It probably ruined his career. Miz has more value to the company as a "failed" main eventer than he would have if he never got pushed to that point. Same goes for Ziggler. I honestly think that if Miz were never champion, he'd be primarily on the C-shows right now once the Brand Split ended and the "main eventers" (which includes himself and Dolph) started oversaturating both RAW and SmackDown. He'd be an even bigger non-entity than he is now. As far as Miz has fallen, he still has this perceived "importance" above a good chunk of the roster. He's still a "top guy" in the eyes of the Little Jimmies and casuals; he still appears on promotional material and the like. He makes red carpet appearances and appears at sporting events. He'd have none of that if he never won the title. You don't see guys like Ryder, Yoshi, Riley, JTG, 3MB etc. making the media rounds. I disagree that he has more value as a failed main eventer. HE SHOULD have more value, he doesn't. As you have seen, what ends up happening when people are knocked down the card is that WWE goes too far. People go from being featured to a non entity within months. If this was a company other than WWE what you said would be true. But in the WWE when you go down the card you go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down the card, way too far. Also, no one considers him a top guy or even vaguely upper card other than you. He's been horribly blasted. He should be upper card. He's one of the few people that should be, he isn't though. He's in "Guy that could lose to Xavier Woods tomorrow" territory. He's at the very bottom of people RAW viewers recognize atm, just on the good side of "good enough in kayfabe to appear on RAW"
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on Jan 26, 2014 3:32:40 GMT -5
He's done. I'm sorry for his fans, but in a setting with one title there really isn't much left. They booked him terribly after his wwe title reign was done. It killed all his momentum. I mean instead of Del Rio, they could of gave him a WHC title reign to keep him relevant. He unlike Del Rio engaged a reaction. Why not have him feud with Sheamus?
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 26, 2014 3:36:31 GMT -5
Personally, coming back to watching WWE after a long gap in 2010, Miz was one of the more interesting characters around, from his feud with Bryan through NXT and into the US title division right through to his MITB win and championship reign. Even with the massive elephant in the room (or elephant appearing via satellite) that was The Rock, he managed to show enough passion to make the Road To Wrestlemania interesting even when Cena and Rock were half-assing it every week. It's a pity that his one Wrestlemania main event was ruined not only by the concussion but also by having to put the focus on Rock just to sell a dismal match the next year.
Also, he seems to be a genuinely nice guy outside of the ring too, from his Art Of Wrestling interview to appearing on Blue Peter and interacting with kids. I've never heard any unpleasant stories about him, which is more than I can say for Del Rio or Rollins.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 26, 2014 3:39:34 GMT -5
He's done. I'm sorry for his fans, but in a setting with one title there really isn't much left. They booked him terribly after his wwe title reign was done. It killed all his momentum. I mean instead of Del Rio, they could of gave him a WHC title reign to keep him relevant. He unlike Del Rio engaged a reaction. Why not have him feud with Sheamus? As a fan of Miz I honestly never wanted him to hold the World Heavyweight Championship. To me that would've still indicated how far he had fallen. A WHC reign for Miz would've been like creatively keeping him on "life support". I would've rather they pull the plug and let him be free as a solid upper midcard act than half heartedly pretend he's "important" despite being the 5th-6th most important storyline at any given time. I did like him as an IC Champ/contender though. It seemed like the only time they even bothered to pretend to give a damn about the IC belt was when Miz was holding it or chasing it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 3:39:50 GMT -5
He's done. I'm sorry for his fans, but in a setting with one title there really isn't much left. They booked him terribly after his wwe title reign was done. It killed all his momentum. I mean instead of Del Rio, they could of gave him a WHC title reign to keep him relevant. He unlike Del Rio engaged a reaction. Why not have him feud with Sheamus? All they'd have to do is heel him up and have him cheat Big E Langston and take his title. Miz could then resume his role of being a prick that unover faces can use to gain credibility.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 38,960
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Post by fw91 on Jan 26, 2014 3:46:34 GMT -5
He's done. I'm sorry for his fans, but in a setting with one title there really isn't much left. They booked him terribly after his wwe title reign was done. It killed all his momentum. I mean instead of Del Rio, they could of gave him a WHC title reign to keep him relevant. He unlike Del Rio engaged a reaction. Why not have him feud with Sheamus? All they'd have to do is heel him up and have him cheat Big E Langston and take his title. Miz could then resume his role of being a prick that unover faces can use to gain credibility. But what would be the point? Believe it or not, I bought Miz as a main eventer from his MITB win all the way to Mania 27. He'll never be what he once was. Now that there is only one world title and rumor has it that there will be only one midcard belt soon, the IC belt should be a stepping stone to the World title. Miz won't sniff the main event ever again
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 3:53:54 GMT -5
All they'd have to do is heel him up and have him cheat Big E Langston and take his title. Miz could then resume his role of being a prick that unover faces can use to gain credibility. But what would be the point? Believe it or not, I bought Miz as a main eventer from his MITB win all the way to Mania 27. He'll never be what he once was. Now that there is only one world title and rumor has it that there will be only one midcard belt soon, the IC belt should be a stepping stone to the World title. Miz won't sniff the main event ever again But maybe Big E could in the future, Miz could probably help him get there.
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schma
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,739
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Post by schma on Jan 26, 2014 3:57:54 GMT -5
He's done. I'm sorry for his fans, but in a setting with one title there really isn't much left. They booked him terribly after his wwe title reign was done. It killed all his momentum. I mean instead of Del Rio, they could of gave him a WHC title reign to keep him relevant. He unlike Del Rio engaged a reaction. Why not have him feud with Sheamus? As a fan of Miz I honestly never wanted him to hold the World Heavyweight Championship. To me that would've still indicated how far he had fallen. A WHC reign for Miz would've been like creatively keeping him on "life support". I would've rather they pull the plug and let him be free as a solid upper midcard act than half heartedly pretend he's "important" despite being the 5th-6th most important storyline at any given time. I did like him as an IC Champ/contender though. It seemed like the only time they even bothered to pretend to give a damn about the IC belt was when Miz was holding it or chasing it. Looking at the WHC title history in the time directly after the Miz lost his WWE title it was still a pretty respectable title. You had Orton, Christian, Henry, Bryan and Show all winning it. Not all of them are smark darlings but that's a hard list to look down on. It was 2013 before Del Rio got his hands on it. Sheamus and Big Show were the only two with it in 2012. A WHC win for Miz along the way probably would have helped him.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Jan 26, 2014 3:59:31 GMT -5
Making him their world champion was definitely WWE's David Arquette moment
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 26, 2014 4:04:07 GMT -5
Miz has more value to the company as a "failed" main eventer than he would have if he never got pushed to that point. Same goes for Ziggler. I honestly think that if Miz were never champion, he'd be primarily on the C-shows right now once the Brand Split ended and the "main eventers" (which includes himself and Dolph) started oversaturating both RAW and SmackDown. He'd be an even bigger non-entity than he is now. As far as Miz has fallen, he still has this perceived "importance" above a good chunk of the roster. He's still a "top guy" in the eyes of the Little Jimmies and casuals; he still appears on promotional material and the like. He makes red carpet appearances and appears at sporting events. He'd have none of that if he never won the title. You don't see guys like Ryder, Yoshi, Riley, JTG, 3MB etc. making the media rounds. I disagree that he has more value as a failed main eventer. HE SHOULD have more value, he doesn't. As you have seen, what ends up happening when people are knocked down the card is that WWE goes too far. People go from being featured to a non entity within months. If this was a company other than WWE what you said would be true. But in the WWE when you go down the card you go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down the card, way too far. Also, no one considers him a top guy or even vaguely upper card other than you. He's been horribly blasted. He should be upper card. He's one of the few people that should be, he isn't though. He's in "Guy that could lose to Xavier Woods tomorrow" territory. He's at the very bottom of people RAW viewers recognize atm, just on the good side of "good enough in kayfabe to appear on RAW" Ever since the Brand Split ended "good enough in kayfabe to appear on RAW" and "upper card" are one in the same. It's one of the main objections I have about the product, and it's the reason the roster feels so top heavy at times, even with just one major title. Miz hasn't fallen that far that he could "lose to Xavier Woods tomorrow". The only people who have decisively crushed Miz since his descent are Randy Orton the WWE Champion, Brock Lesnar, and Jack Swagger when he was getting his huge push to the WHC. Whenever Miz wrestles against firmly midcard guys, he usually wins cleanly and decisively.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Jan 26, 2014 4:09:22 GMT -5
He seems to false like the persona of a 'baddie' reality TV star. As odd as it sounds but he's clearly paying a character. I know everyone else is too but few make the fact they're playing someone that obvious. With most guys I have no issue suspending disbelief and thinking they ARE the person they're portraying on screen; cocky heel, goody-two-shoes baby face or whatever. With Miz, it's like he's playing dress-up. It's not that his persona is over the top at all but it doesn't seem to have advanced beyond the stage where a kid cuts a promo to his own reflection in his bedroom.
For me anyway, there's a lack of believability there. It's like Justin Bieber. Yes he sings and dances but....it's not exactly the most credible music out there and I've always felt the same with the Miz. I also don't think his mic work has ever been that good. IMO he's a kid playing dress up in front of the mirror who thanks to a reality TV show somehow got to become world champion.
When he was first being pushed his antics seemed like that of a jerk at junior high rather than a fully formed, wrestling character and I've never been able to shake that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 4:11:31 GMT -5
I disagree that he has more value as a failed main eventer. HE SHOULD have more value, he doesn't. As you have seen, what ends up happening when people are knocked down the card is that WWE goes too far. People go from being featured to a non entity within months. If this was a company other than WWE what you said would be true. But in the WWE when you go down the card you go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down the card, way too far. Also, no one considers him a top guy or even vaguely upper card other than you. He's been horribly blasted. He should be upper card. He's one of the few people that should be, he isn't though. He's in "Guy that could lose to Xavier Woods tomorrow" territory. He's at the very bottom of people RAW viewers recognize atm, just on the good side of "good enough in kayfabe to appear on RAW" Ever since the Brand Split ended "good enough in kayfabe to appear on RAW" and "upper card" are one in the same. It's one of the main objections I have about the product, and it's the reason the roster feels so top heavy at times, even with just one major title. Miz hasn't fallen that far that he could "lose to Xavier Woods tomorrow". The only people who have decisively crushed Miz since his descent are Randy Orton the WWE Champion, Brock Lesnar, and Jack Swagger when he was getting his huge push to the WHC. Whenever Miz wrestles against firmly midcard guys, he usually wins cleanly and decisively. Kofi is not, nor is Curtis Axel, nor are Los Matadores, nor are all tag teams not named the Shield (Brotherhood isn't even uppercard, the ones with the belts), nor is...not even going to continue listing them.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 26, 2014 4:16:32 GMT -5
As a fan of Miz I honestly never wanted him to hold the World Heavyweight Championship. To me that would've still indicated how far he had fallen. A WHC reign for Miz would've been like creatively keeping him on "life support". I would've rather they pull the plug and let him be free as a solid upper midcard act than half heartedly pretend he's "important" despite being the 5th-6th most important storyline at any given time. I did like him as an IC Champ/contender though. It seemed like the only time they even bothered to pretend to give a damn about the IC belt was when Miz was holding it or chasing it. Looking at the WHC title history in the time directly after the Miz lost his WWE title it was still a pretty respectable title. You had Orton, Christian, Henry, Bryan and Show all winning it. Not all of them are smark darlings but that's a hard list to look down on. It was 2013 before Del Rio got his hands on it. Sheamus and Big Show were the only two with it in 2012. A WHC win for Miz along the way probably would have helped him. I just never really liked the idea of Miz getting caught in that vortex that the WHC seemed to suck people into whenever they held or contended for it. You know, how The WHC seemed to exist in another dimension apart from everything else. I didn't want to see him stuck in the same directionless feud with the same guy for months. Yeah that still happened with Barrett, but it wasn't so bad because we weren't supposed to pretend it was a "top" angle.
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