Sam Punk
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Post by Sam Punk on Feb 8, 2014 21:35:45 GMT -5
I can think of quite a few guys HHH helped get over: Steve Austin The Rock Mick Foley Chris Jericho Chris Benoit Randy Orton Batista John Cena Brock Lesnar Undertaker Austin got over from his I Quit match against Bret. Rock and Foley got over from their respective feuds with Undertaker. Jericho got over from beating Rock and Austin on the same night. Orton, Cena and Lesnar were already established before they wrestled HHH. Undertaker got over from beating Hogan in 1991. So it's just Batista and maybe Benoit.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Feb 8, 2014 22:53:27 GMT -5
Yeah. I agree he helped more guys than a lot give him credit for...but he had nothing to do with the f***ing Undertaker doing anything.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Feb 9, 2014 4:24:01 GMT -5
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned leaner yet He pinned Lesnar, sure, but yeah, he basically added to the mystique still, since it was after throwing anything and everything at him, and after taking a decisive loss against him in their previous match. Expect after their WM match HHH no sold that and did his best to try to make Brock look like a total pansy. Not to mention their dreadful cage match when Brock screamed like a baby and had to cheat as well as have his manager interfere to beat him.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 9, 2014 4:26:06 GMT -5
He pinned Lesnar, sure, but yeah, he basically added to the mystique still, since it was after throwing anything and everything at him, and after taking a decisive loss against him in their previous match. Expect after their WM match HHH no sold that and did his best to try to make Brock look like a total pansy. Not to mention their dreadful cage match when Brock screamed like a baby and had to cheat as well as have his manager interfere to beat him. That is just what Brock sounds like when he yells.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 11:00:50 GMT -5
The reason people can't defend HHH accurately is because there is no precedent to his behavior.
Vince McMahon has never pushed a dominating heel before. Look throughout time. If you start from the Hogan era, which heels have been pushed as strongly as HHH was? Even when Steve Austin, the hottest babyface during the Attitude Era, turned heel at WM 17, the following night he looked like an absolute bitch tapping out and being visually pinned by The Rock 3 or 4 times within 10 minutes. So HHH having his reign of terror has no rival. He was the only one in the WWF/E to get pushed like that, for YEARS no less.
As a babyface, HHH has been booked stronger than every face the company has had, including Hogan, Austin, Rock, Undertaker, etc. Every single one of those guys showed vulnerability. They presented their opponents as threats, in the ring and in promos. I remember watching an old tape recently of WWF Superstars 1991, where they were hyping up a Hogan/Warlord match. By this point, Warlord had already jobbed to Davey and practically everyone else so he wasn't really a threat to Hogan. Yet, if you saw Hogan's promo to hype that match up, you would think he was going up against Andre in his prime. Even Austin and Rock, two guys who were the top faces during the "I don't give a damn" era, would make their opponents look like threats. The Rock would make jokes, but then get serious. The better your opponent looks, the better you look. That's common sense. HHH has never mastered that. He didn't even show vulnerability against Brock. He lost at Summerslam, and instead of playing the natural "I have to prove to myself that I can beat you" card, he just says "the ass kicker is back!" and proceeds to beat Brock at WM and come out of their 3rd match looking better than the guy he jobbed to. It's such a terrible way to do business that it's surprising coming from a guy that is going to inherit the company.
HHH will have supporters. That doesn't mean they can justify his actions. It just means they like him in spite of those actions. If you can find ONE guy who has been pushed like HHH, heel or face, then this becomes a discussion, but you can't. He has been treated way differently than everyone else in the last 30 years.
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percymania
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Post by percymania on Feb 9, 2014 11:51:51 GMT -5
I can think of quite a few guys HHH helped get over: Steve Austin The Rock Mick Foley Chris Jericho Chris Benoit Randy Orton Batista John Cena Brock Lesnar Undertaker Austin got over from his I Quit match against Bret. Rock and Foley got over from their respective feuds with Undertaker. Jericho got over from beating Rock and Austin on the same night. Orton, Cena and Lesnar were already established before they wrestled HHH. Undertaker got over from beating Hogan in 1991. So it's just Batista and maybe Benoit. I'm not saying Triple H is the sole reason any of these guys got over. I'm just saying he helped put all these guys over at one point or another.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Feb 9, 2014 12:22:38 GMT -5
I just find it funny that Eddie in his 2 years as a main eventer, put over the same amount of guys (2, Bradshaw and Rey) as Hunter has in his 14 year main event run.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Feb 9, 2014 12:38:02 GMT -5
yeah Triple H put over Steve Austin.
...SMH. dumbest thing I've heard all day.
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percymania
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Post by percymania on Feb 9, 2014 14:17:25 GMT -5
yeah Triple H put over Steve Austin. ...SMH. dumbest thing I've heard all day.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Feb 9, 2014 18:56:20 GMT -5
I can think of quite a few guys HHH helped get over: Steve Austin The Rock Mick Foley Chris JerichoChris Benoit Randy Orton Batista John Cena Brock Lesnar UndertakerI nearly spat water on my screen after reading that! Austin, Rock, Foley and Taker were already before as main event guys before HHH was. So they helped HHH get to that level, not vice versa. You are saying he put Austin over with that car dropping angle? Yeah, no. HHH used his backstage clout to get that angle in the first place, stealing any potential heat Rikishi would have had, dropping the storyline with Angle that was getting Kurt over massively all so he could be the one to work with the top star in the company. And of course HHH won the feud with Austin in the end. Edit: Oh and Jericho.... you can not be serious? HHH seemed to be actively trying to sabotage Jericho's career whenever he had the chance and even now on TV he can't resist trying to belittle him. I really want to know what his problem is with Y2J.
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Feb 9, 2014 19:00:14 GMT -5
HHH losing to Eugene gave Eugene a ton of credibility. Which was then promptly wasted with poor booking/character development. Would it be fair to say he is the most selfish man in the history of the business? No. I'd say Mil Mascaras was way worse. WCW Hogan vs. Mil Mascaras vs. HHH. Who does the job?
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Feb 9, 2014 19:09:01 GMT -5
'Putting over' doesn't automatically equal 'getting over'.
'Putting over' also doesn't automatically equal 'elevating'.
Triple H put over, as in got over, and put over, as in elevated, Batista.
Triple H put over, as in did the job to, and maybe put over, as in helped get over, John Cena during his first WWE championship run, but Triple H did not put over, as in elevate, John Cena, who was already elevated to the main event spot before they even wrestled.
Triple H put over, as in did the job to, a bunch of guys. But to do the job doesn't mean you're getting someone over as much as it also doesn't mean you're a full-blown jobber, as much as it doesn't mean that you're elevating someone either.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Feb 9, 2014 20:23:13 GMT -5
The reason people can't defend HHH accurately is because there is no precedent to his behavior. Vince McMahon has never pushed a dominating heel before. Look throughout time. If you start from the Hogan era, which heels have been pushed as strongly as HHH was? Even when Steve Austin, the hottest babyface during the Attitude Era, turned heel at WM 17, the following night he looked like an absolute bitch tapping out and being visually pinned by The Rock 3 or 4 times within 10 minutes. Yokozuna was pushed incredibly strong as a monster heel champion. He lost one match by count out between winning the title by squashing Hulk Hogan, and in essence destroying Hulkamania, and the night Bret pinned him for the belt at WrestleMania X. In between then, he beat (through some dubious means) Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect, Bret Hart, Randy Savage and Undertaker in Title matches, amongst others. I really want to know what his problem is with Y2J. Jericho's debut got more attention and praise than HHH did in finally winning the WWF Title. It overshadowed HHH completely, who was an ice-cold Champion until the Stephanie alliance and Foley putting him over.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Feb 9, 2014 20:38:10 GMT -5
I really want to know what his problem is with Y2J. Jericho's debut got more attention and praise than HHH did in finally winning the WWF Title. It overshadowed HHH completely, who was an ice-cold Champion until the Stephanie alliance and Foley putting him over. Were they the same night?
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Feb 9, 2014 20:41:54 GMT -5
Jericho's debut got more attention and praise than HHH did in finally winning the WWF Title. It overshadowed HHH completely, who was an ice-cold Champion until the Stephanie alliance and Foley putting him over. Were they the same night? Nope, Jericho debuted a couple of weeks beforehand. I remember he cut a promo at Summerslam calling it "Summersham." Trips would win the title the following night.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Feb 9, 2014 20:43:43 GMT -5
I always felt the way Hunter handle the first Orton title run was almost criminal. This wasn't even like a spur of the moment thing, like Bryan just suddenly getting super over after mania 28. They had set up Orton since 2003 to be the next top babyface star and to beat Hunter at mania 21. They had this plan and Hunter just completely sabotage Orton to the point where it took Taker almost getting hepatitis at Armageddon 2005 to get Orton credible enough for a world title match at mania. Maybe turning Orton babyface right after summerslam wasn't a great decision in hindsight, but hey Vince wanted Orton and Cena to be the new top babyfaces so it's defensible I think. The problem of course was that Randall wasn't getting hot reactions but I would figure Hunter will know of being a cold champion in the first title reign . Hunter beating Orton with Orton never getting his win back as a babyface was I think one of the most worst burials Hunter committed. This wasn't like what Hunter did with Kane, who was never going to be a top star, Orton was going to be the next cash cow for Vince and Hunter complete destroyed. It's really amazing to me in hindsight how badly botched it was. They got lucky Batista got over which helped the company get over Orton flopping but it was still something Trips should have stop from ever happening.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Feb 9, 2014 20:58:02 GMT -5
Jericho's debut got more attention and praise than HHH did in finally winning the WWF Title. It overshadowed HHH completely, who was an ice-cold Champion until the Stephanie alliance and Foley putting him over. Were they the same night? A week apart. But the countdown was getting way more attention and talk then HHH's impending title match. And after the pop and promo with Rock, that's all people were talking about. I can understand HHH's anger in that situation seeing how he was finally on the cusp, but the fact was, at least at that point, Jericho came in with so much fanfare that it kind of blotted out HHH's spotlight.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Feb 9, 2014 21:01:45 GMT -5
I always felt the way Hunter handle the first Orton title run was almost criminal. This wasn't even like a spur of the moment thing, like Bryan just suddenly getting super over after mania 28. They had set up Orton since 2003 to be the next top babyface star and to beat Hunter at mania 21. They had this plan and Hunter just completely sabotage Orton to the point where it took Taker almost getting hepatitis at Armageddon 2005 to get Orton credible enough for a world title match at mania. Maybe turning Orton babyface right after summerslam wasn't a great decision in hindsight, but hey Vince wanted Orton and Cena to be the new top babyfaces so it's defensible I think. The problem of course was that Randall wasn't getting hot reactions but I would figure Hunter will know of being a cold champion in the first title reign . Hunter beating Orton with Orton never getting his win back as a babyface was I think one of the most worst burials Hunter committed. This wasn't like what Hunter did with Kane, who was never going to be a top star, Orton was going to be the next cash cow for Vince and Hunter complete destroyed. It's really amazing to me in hindsight how badly botched it was. They got lucky Batista got over which helped the company get over Orton flopping but it was still something Trips should have stop from ever happening. I've always felt logic dictated that HHH be the one who gets beat down by Orton and Evolution and turn face. By its very nature, Evolution is about progress and adaptation, so the younger lion turning on his master made way more sense -- especially when you consider how HHH dropped the ball with Benoit, and then his stuff with Eugene. From a character standpoint, he no longer seemed the alpha male. Why would Flair and Batista stay with a loser, when they could side with the guy who was actually champion and successful?
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comahan
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Post by comahan on Feb 9, 2014 21:07:26 GMT -5
I don't feel like reading thru the thread so I'm sure it's been mentioned, but HHH tapping to Cena @ WM22 cemented Cena as THE MAN. Cena was already clearly the guy they were building around as he'd been champion for most of the last year, but beating Trips made him the undisputed top dog in the company. If Rock/Punk was @ Mania instead of the Rumble, and Punk won via clean submission, then that would be pretty similar to WM22 imo.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Feb 9, 2014 21:15:14 GMT -5
I always felt the way Hunter handle the first Orton title run was almost criminal. This wasn't even like a spur of the moment thing, like Bryan just suddenly getting super over after mania 28. They had set up Orton since 2003 to be the next top babyface star and to beat Hunter at mania 21. They had this plan and Hunter just completely sabotage Orton to the point where it took Taker almost getting hepatitis at Armageddon 2005 to get Orton credible enough for a world title match at mania. Maybe turning Orton babyface right after summerslam wasn't a great decision in hindsight, but hey Vince wanted Orton and Cena to be the new top babyfaces so it's defensible I think. The problem of course was that Randall wasn't getting hot reactions but I would figure Hunter will know of being a cold champion in the first title reign . Hunter beating Orton with Orton never getting his win back as a babyface was I think one of the most worst burials Hunter committed. This wasn't like what Hunter did with Kane, who was never going to be a top star, Orton was going to be the next cash cow for Vince and Hunter complete destroyed. It's really amazing to me in hindsight how badly botched it was. They got lucky Batista got over which helped the company get over Orton flopping but it was still something Trips should have stop from ever happening. I've always felt logic dictated that HHH be the one who gets beat down by Orton and Evolution and turn face. By its very nature, Evolution is about progress and adaptation, so the younger lion turning on his master made way more sense -- especially when you consider how HHH dropped the ball with Benoit, and then his stuff with Eugene. From a character standpoint, he no longer seemed the alpha male. Why would Flair and Batista stay with a loser, when they could side with the guy who was actually champion and successful? Yea I totally get that from the booking side, but I think you run into the problem of A) Hunter not wanting to lose his badass super sexy group and B)Vince wanting Orton to be his new Rock so wanting to be a top baby-face star. Under those conditions, I still think Orton turning on evolution could have still worked out if Orton wasn't completely sabotage. If they really wanted to rush HHH vs Randy for Unforgiven, they should have let Randy win clean as a whistle. This way you actually get the crowd to think, boy this Orton guy could be the real deal. That was what I think derailed Orton's initial face response. The crowd just thought that Orton was a young guy in over his head and not a serious threat to HHH. Have Orton win clean, beat Flair at taboo Tuesday just to give Orton 3 months to get comfortable and let the face pops organically rise up. Maybe Orton as a babyface was destine to fail, but HHH/Vince really made it almost impossible for Randy to reach his touted potential.
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