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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 7:58:10 GMT -5
If you are going to charge for refills, why put the machine in a place where people can refill their own drink? If I am the one filling and refilling my beverage, I kinda expect the refills to be free. This, so much. A drink machine you can use yourself means free refills. Anything else is just bonehead stupid. That's just how it works. People know that if it's out there, you get refills, and if it's behind the counter, you usually have to pay.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2014 8:27:46 GMT -5
I get you but this wasn't a fast food place, it was a hospital cafeteria. It's on the honor system and had multiple signs on the wall. You cannot trust people to see a sign, let alone read it. For example, our rules thread has just short of 8k views despite being an announcement on here from the day they were posted until just a week or so ago, yet we have far more members so there is no chance for everyone to have actually bothered to see them. It is an even fewer number that have seen it when you consider the amount of time the staff double checks that thread or goes to quote the rules or people go. Does that excuse not following the rules, no but you cannot expect people know better when they don't bother to check. As far the location being a hospital and not a fast food location, that is not a good excuse, IMO. If you don't want people to think refills are free, put the machine where they cannot do it or station someone there to take payment. Anything else points to free refills, signage or not. Not saying that the punishment fits the crime, but do you guys give someone a pass if they said they didn't read the rules? Will someone avoid a warning if they quoted a post arguing with someone before reading a mod's post warning people to drop it on the next page? It's a hospital cafeteria, not a restaurant. Everyone I've ever been to has quite a few items out that you get and pay for at the register. The salad bar is self-service too, but you have to pay for that. The cafeterias are designed to get people through as quickly as possible because they may not have any other time to eat, so most have several things that are out. Manually filling and refilling sodas for each customer takes a lot of time that people don't really have, so it's understandable why a hospital, which is already going to be more poorly staffed than a fast food place, would have self-service soda machines.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 8:41:10 GMT -5
I'm an ex-bouncer/current store security and articles like this that are made to tug at your emotions and root for the little guy without knowing the full extent of what he actually did or real reason why he reprimanded just annoy me to no end. Sure, sometimes people in authority are abusive morons but just as often the person on the end of it was an absolute c**t and caused the situation by being so. I could fill this thread with stories but I won't derail it other than just saying that those making any judgement based on the information we've been given are being ignorant. That and the guy posting this is really not doing anything but inciting. So long as he's not off store property he's hasn't stolen shit. Whether it's a cup of Coke or a PS4. Dude can grab a PS4 and wander all over the parking lot, until he leaves the store property, he can always pay. I've actually had people pissed at me because I didn't care they technically stole. Customer very, very, very sheepish: I put these batteries in my pocket because I was gonna buy them. I did the rest of my shopping and forgot, when I got home I realized, so now I came back to pay for them. Me: Ok. Thanks. No problem. Very honest of you. *Beep* That's $4. Customer wicked annoyed: Here's a $5? He seemed pissed I didn't call the police. Batteries? Who gives a shit? It varies from state to state and country to country but there are usually "willful concealment" provisions written into the law. People think like you that they are fine until they take it out the doors (though usually not as bad as you thinking you're fine until you leave the parking lot lol), but if you are seen to willfully conceal an item even if you haven't left the store property it's usually a misdemeanor and they have the right to detain you. (For example you can't stick a pound of bacon in your underwear and walk around the store whistling innocently.) Drinking the drink would definitely fall under this category. Sure, it's up to the store's discretion and you probably could easily just explain how you were just warming up the bacon for later and pay them and they wouldn't bother to pursue it (short of possibly banning you), but if you are a jerk about it they aren't going to be nice. This guy was obviously a jerk to the cop when confronted. Simple as that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 9:30:12 GMT -5
So long as he's not off store property he's hasn't stolen shit. Whether it's a cup of Coke or a PS4. Dude can grab a PS4 and wander all over the parking lot, until he leaves the store property, he can always pay. I've actually had people pissed at me because I didn't care they technically stole. Customer very, very, very sheepish: I put these batteries in my pocket because I was gonna buy them. I did the rest of my shopping and forgot, when I got home I realized, so now I came back to pay for them. Me: Ok. Thanks. No problem. Very honest of you. *Beep* That's $4. Customer wicked annoyed: Here's a $5? He seemed pissed I didn't call the police. Batteries? Who gives a shit? This guy was obviously a jerk to the cop when confronted. Simple as that. Well, we don't know he was being a jerk, just that the someone at the hospital "understands that he was being aggressive" which means that she didn't actually see him being aggressive just heard that he was so we don't really know and making any judgement based on the information we've been given is being ignorant.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 9:37:21 GMT -5
This guy was obviously a jerk to the cop when confronted. Simple as that. Well, we don't know he was being a jerk, just that the someone at the hospital "understands that he was being aggressive" which means that she didn't actually see him being aggressive just heard that he was so we don't really know and making any judgement based on the information we've been given is being ignorant. EXACTLY. See how it looks from the other side now?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 10:30:59 GMT -5
Well, we don't know he was being a jerk, just that the someone at the hospital "understands that he was being aggressive" which means that she didn't actually see him being aggressive just heard that he was so we don't really know and making any judgement based on the information we've been given is being ignorant. EXACTLY. See how it looks from the other side now? Hmm...I'm not 100% what you mean by that. We've basically got two things so far First hand account of both the Cheif of Police and the construction worker, both saying the same thing: the guy unknowningly refilled his drink without paying for it and was arrested on federal charges. Second hand account of an unnamed employee stating she heard the guy was aggressive. Now, taking into consideration the situation, that of the Chief of Police trying to bust a guy for not paying for an .89 cent refill, its understandable the construction worker might not even believe the guy was seriously a cop. Its a ludicrous situation when you think about it. It'd be like an FBI agent trying to give you a ticket for an expired meter. If it were hopsital security or an employee or someone like that, yeah. Anyway, I'm not saying that the guy shouldn't make restitution or be banned from the place if that's what they want to do, but federal charages? Theft of govt property? That's excessive. AND, and- lets say he was being unnecessarily aggressive then feel free to bust him on any number of other charges like disturbing the peace or something instead of trumping up a petty shop lifting charge. I'd be all for that. The thing is, it even says in the article that he tried to pay for it, but wasn't allowed to. So, I agree that being a prick to someone unnecessarily isn't nice at all, but trying to raise federal charges for something like this is WAY, way over the line.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 10:54:57 GMT -5
HE SAYS he tried to pay for it after the sign on the drink machine itself was pointed out to him, THEY SAID he became verbally aggessive and again, the federal charges are because it's federal property.
It all goes back to things sad ages ago: We don't have enough facts to decide anything one way or another, the fact that the charges are federal have nothing to do with the facts of the case and anyone posting this trying to get you to choose the side of the man charged is specifically targeting those ignorant of that and is flamebaiting.
There is literally nothing else to be said about what happened at this point with the information we have.
Oh and just in case anyone is wondering, the VA hospital has said he will be receiving a WARNING rather than a fine. They haven't said whether they will let him back on the premises though, and reiterated the fact that he was “verbally aggressive” again pointing to the issue being with the guy's actions rather than them seeking justice or fine money (which wouldn't have gone to them anyway).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 11:21:06 GMT -5
Vern I don't think anyone is trying to get anyone to take anyone's side or trying to manipulate a situation. Posting an article from another website isn't flamebaiting. What facts we do know are there and people are DISCUSSING the matter based on that. No one is trying to start a movement or dupe anyone into thinking anything that isn't true. Its not about getting to root of the matter or trying to decide, with 100% certainty what happened and who is at fault. Its just about expoudning upon what happened or maybe discussing similar circumstances and ideas. Fostering further discussion about things relating to the case and attempting several times to shut that down just because you've come to a conclusion about the matter doesn't really help that. More to the point, being verbally aggressive isn't a crime. But I am glad the hospital decided to act reasonably in this case.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Apr 18, 2014 11:35:00 GMT -5
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Apr 18, 2014 11:36:07 GMT -5
More to the point, being verbally aggressive isn't a crime. But I am glad the hospital decided to act reasonably in this case. Well, I wouldn't say it specifically -isn't- a crime. It can be under the right circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 11:42:38 GMT -5
More to the point, being verbally aggressive isn't a crime. But I am glad the hospital decided to act reasonably in this case. Well, I wouldn't say it specifically -isn't- a crime. It can be under the right circumstances. For sure. If you're specifically trying to incite violence or a dangerous situation then, yeah. I think its called "fighting words" or something like that. But even verbal abuse of a peace officer isn't itself a crime unless you're resisting arrest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 13:28:30 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't say it specifically -isn't- a crime. It can be under the right circumstances. For sure. If you're specifically trying to incite violence or a dangerous situation then, yeah. I think its called "fighting words" or something like that. But even verbal abuse of a peace officer isn't itself a crime unless you're resisting arrest. Point was being verbally aggressive isn't necessarily a crime but when you're committing a different relatively minor crime (like stealing a refill) starting shit will all-but guarantee they charge you with it when they would have most likely let you off.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 13:48:37 GMT -5
For sure. If you're specifically trying to incite violence or a dangerous situation then, yeah. I think its called "fighting words" or something like that. But even verbal abuse of a peace officer isn't itself a crime unless you're resisting arrest. Point was being verbally aggressive isn't necessarily a crime but when you're committing a different relatively minor crime (like stealing a refill) starting shit will all-but guarantee they charge you with it when they would have most likely let you off. I haven't found that to be the case around here. More often than not cops will try to settle any minor issues without making it formal unless the person really, REALLY pushes the issue. Probably because they don't want to hassle with the paper work unless its something serious. But I'm sure there are people small enough to hack with that kind of stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 15:58:54 GMT -5
Point was being verbally aggressive isn't necessarily a crime but when you're committing a different relatively minor crime (like stealing a refill) starting shit will all-but guarantee they charge you with it when they would have most likely let you off. I haven't found that to be the case around here. More often than not cops will try to settle any minor issues without making it formal unless the person really, REALLY pushes the issue. Probably because they don't want to hassle with the paper work unless its something serious. But I'm sure there are people small enough to hack with that kind of stuff. I can't speak for your experiences but where I've been it works like that. Hell, it's common sense that pretty much everywhere works like that. A warning is at the officer's discretion. If you get pulled over for a busted tail light or something and the officer was planning on giving you a warning but you get aggressive and start yelling you had better believe your "warning" just went away. That's not someone being "small" that's the officer not being lenient with you because you're being an ass to him. And that's fair enough. You can't expect a favor from someone you're screaming at.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 16:05:31 GMT -5
I haven't found that to be the case around here. More often than not cops will try to settle any minor issues without making it formal unless the person really, REALLY pushes the issue. Probably because they don't want to hassle with the paper work unless its something serious. But I'm sure there are people small enough to hack with that kind of stuff. I can't speak for your experiences but where I've been it works like that. Hell, it's common sense that pretty much everywhere works like that. A warning is at the officer's discretion. If you get pulled over for a busted tail light or something and the officer was planning on giving you a warning but you get aggressive and start yelling you had better believe your "warning" just went away. That's not someone being "small" that's the officer not being lenient with you because you're being an ass to him. And that's fair enough. You can't expect a favor from someone you're screaming at. Damn, that's crazy man. Where do you live, because I do not want to go there! haha!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 16:18:06 GMT -5
I worry for your future man. I'm done arguing if you're unable to grasp the concept of not being a c**t to someone who has a choice of being nice or an ass to you. That's worldwide.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 16:26:01 GMT -5
I worry for your future man. I'm done arguing if you're unable to grasp the concept of not being a c**t to someone who has a choice of being nice or an ass to you. That's worldwide. Your concern feels genuine and is appreciated.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2014 16:48:39 GMT -5
I can't speak for your experiences but where I've been it works like that. Hell, it's common sense that pretty much everywhere works like that. A warning is at the officer's discretion. If you get pulled over for a busted tail light or something and the officer was planning on giving you a warning but you get aggressive and start yelling you had better believe your "warning" just went away. That's not someone being "small" that's the officer not being lenient with you because you're being an ass to him. And that's fair enough. You can't expect a favor from someone you're screaming at. Damn, that's crazy man. Where do you live, because I do not want to go there! haha! It's pretty much everywhere. I mean, a cop who wants to find some reason to escalate a charges can do so, but being nice will get them to do it less often (being a crying girl helps, but it's not guaranteed). Granted, this is more for traffic cops than anything else, but if a cop watches you for long enough, they can find something worth ticketing you over. A lot of little things can become bigger things if you fight with the police, I saw it on occassion when I worked as a crime reporter, and our police aren't atypically assholeish.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:02:46 GMT -5
Damn, that's crazy man. Where do you live, because I do not want to go there! haha! It's pretty much everywhere. I mean, a cop who wants to find some reason to escalate a charges can do so, but being nice will get them to do it less often (being a crying girl helps, but it's not guaranteed. A lot of little things can become bigger things if you fight with the police. Like, I said, I've never see it around here, but to me that opens up way too much potential for police abuse, its far too arbitrary ("He was throwing attitude my way so I arrested him instead of just letting him off with a warning" pft, any decent lawyer would destroy that). Rules might be stricter around here for that reason though, Oakland's known for not responding well to police mishandling situations. There's no way to know whether you'll (for example) get a ticket vs a warning until you've got the ticket or the warning. You can find just as much anecdotal evidence of people being nice and getting a ticket as getting a warning and the same goes for people who aren't in the best moods. Sure they can still bust you for the crime you committed, but they're not going to go from speeding to man 1 over a bad attitude.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:37:59 GMT -5
Sure they can still bust you for the crime you committed, but they're not going to go from speeding to man 1 over a bad attitude.
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