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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:40:22 GMT -5
Sure they can still bust you for the crime you committed, but they're not going to go from speeding to man 1 over a bad attitude. GIFS!!
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2014 17:40:51 GMT -5
It's pretty much everywhere. I mean, a cop who wants to find some reason to escalate a charges can do so, but being nice will get them to do it less often (being a crying girl helps, but it's not guaranteed. A lot of little things can become bigger things if you fight with the police. Like, I said, I've never see it around here, but to me that opens up way too much potential for police abuse, its far too arbitrary ("He was throwing attitude my way so I arrested him instead of just letting him off with a warning" pft, any decent lawyer would destroy that). Rules might be stricter around here for that reason though, Oakland's known for not responding well to police mishandling situations. There's no way to know whether you'll (for example) get a ticket vs a warning until you've got the ticket or the warning. You can find just as much anecdotal evidence of people being nice and getting a ticket as getting a warning and the same goes for people who aren't in the best moods. Sure they can still bust you for the crime you committed, but they're not going to go from speeding to man 1 over a bad attitude. I've never seen it in person either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I heard people call and complain about it when I was a crime reporter. This sort of thing doesn't usually occur in front of your face, it occurs in homes on disturbance calls or in cars on traffic violations. These don't make the news in any mid to large town, because they're tickets or minor arrests in the grand scheme of things, and reporters usually have much more important shit to deal with than a guy whining about getting a traffic ticket because his friend mooned a cop while they were driving on the highway. It's also not going to be reported in police reports, because most cops aren't absolute morons to put "I was going to give a warning until he called me a fat pig, so I arrested him." They don't have to put that in the report, and they're given the leeway to make judgment calls by the law and courts. So no, it's not really any decent lawyer that'd get you off, because that's not a realistic situation. In court, it'll be that guys word against a cop's, and juries almost always trust the cops word more. Arbitrary? Yes, but a way of life when you're dealing with someone who has the power to arrest you. And no one said it's this huge absolute thing and if you're nice you'll never get a ticket, but at this point it's just common sense and knowledge that if you're a dick to people in authority, they're not going to be as likely to cut you slack. And of course they won't go from speeding to man 1. That's just stupid. But they may go from warning to $200 ticket and there's little you can do there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:44:20 GMT -5
At least Red gets what I mean, but when it comes to this thread...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:48:59 GMT -5
Like, I said, I've never see it around here, but to me that opens up way too much potential for police abuse, its far too arbitrary ("He was throwing attitude my way so I arrested him instead of just letting him off with a warning" pft, any decent lawyer would destroy that). Rules might be stricter around here for that reason though, Oakland's known for not responding well to police mishandling situations. There's no way to know whether you'll (for example) get a ticket vs a warning until you've got the ticket or the warning. You can find just as much anecdotal evidence of people being nice and getting a ticket as getting a warning and the same goes for people who aren't in the best moods. Sure they can still bust you for the crime you committed, but they're not going to go from speeding to man 1 over a bad attitude. I've never seen it in person either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I heard people call and complain about it when I was a crime reporter. This sort of thing doesn't usually occur in front of your face, it occurs in homes on disturbance calls or in cars on traffic violations. These don't make the news in any mid to large town, because they're tickets or minor arrests in the grand scheme of things. It's also not going to occur in police reports, because most cops aren't absolute morons to put "I was going to give a warning until he called me a fat pig, so I arrested him." In court, it'll be that guys word against a cops, and juries almost always trust the cops word more. Arbitrary? Yes, but a way of life when you're dealing with someone who has the power to arrest you. And no one said it's this huge absolute thing and if you're nice you'll never get a ticket, but at this point it's just common sense and knowledge that if you're a dick to people in authority, they'll be dicks to you in response. It's not exactly this hidden thing. Granted, I'm not saying be a dick to everyone. I'm generally nice to everyone, regardless of their position in life. My point is it doesn't really matter if you're a dick to a cop. You break the law, you're gonna get dinged for it. I mean, you may just get a warning but there's no (as you said) absolute way to suss that out or guarantee it one way or another. I mean, I've seen videos on youtube of people being total pricks to a cop and get off with a warning. Not only is not absolute, its completely random whether or not you'll even get a ticket or what have you so trying to say that being sour to a cop will mean they'll treat you any worse isn't true at all. But like I said, I'm all for being nice to people in general. I don't think people should be dicks to cops or anyone for that matter, but I don't believe for a second being nice/rude to a cop really affects whether or not you'll be ticketed/warned/etc. They'll either do it or they won't. Some cops may be more lenient than others, but that's the luck of the draw and not so much about your attitude.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2014 17:53:22 GMT -5
Granted, I'm not saying be a dick to everyone. I'm generally nice to everyone, regardless of their position in life. My point is it doesn't really matter if you're a dick to a cop. You break the law, you're gonna get dinged for it. I mean, you may just get a warning but there's no (as you said) absolute way to suss that out or guarantee it one way or another. I mean, I've seen videos on youtube of people being total pricks to a cop and get off with a warning. Not only is not absolute, its completely random whether or not you'll even get a ticket or what have you so trying to say that being sour to a cop will mean they'll treat you any worse isn't true at all. But like I said, I'm all for being nice to people in general. I don't think people should be dicks to cops or anyone for that matter, but I don't believe for a second being nice/rude to a cop really affects whether or not you'll be ticketed/warned/etc. They'll either do it or they won't. Some cops may be more lenient than others, but that's the luck of the draw and not so much about your attitude. You're right and you're wrong. You're right when you say it's arbitrary (or random, but arbitrary is a much better word), which, again, is sort of the point. And that's why you're wrong when you say it doesn't matter if you're an asshole to a cop. They're human, they're capable of changing their minds, and unless they're complete and total idiots, you have zero chance of beating them if they do. If you're a dick and there's no one recording, you're less likely to give a cop a reason to give you a warning, and they usually don't announce that until the very end of the encounter to begin with. Being rude, not following directions, yelling and screaming all escalate situations, and that's never a good thing, even if you do get off with a warning. Finding a video online doesn't really change all the stories of people's attitudes and behaviors leading to cops using more force.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 18:06:53 GMT -5
Granted, I'm not saying be a dick to everyone. I'm generally nice to everyone, regardless of their position in life. My point is it doesn't really matter if you're a dick to a cop. You break the law, you're gonna get dinged for it. I mean, you may just get a warning but there's no (as you said) absolute way to suss that out or guarantee it one way or another. I mean, I've seen videos on youtube of people being total pricks to a cop and get off with a warning. Not only is not absolute, its completely random whether or not you'll even get a ticket or what have you so trying to say that being sour to a cop will mean they'll treat you any worse isn't true at all. But like I said, I'm all for being nice to people in general. I don't think people should be dicks to cops or anyone for that matter, but I don't believe for a second being nice/rude to a cop really affects whether or not you'll be ticketed/warned/etc. They'll either do it or they won't. Some cops may be more lenient than others, but that's the luck of the draw and not so much about your attitude. You're right and you're wrong. You're right when you say it's arbitrary (or random, but arbitrary is a much better word), which, again, is sort of the point. And that's why you're wrong when you say it doesn't matter if you're an asshole to a cop. They're human, they're capable of changing their minds, and unless they're complete and total idiots, you have zero chance of beating them if they do. If you're a dick and there's no one recording, you're less likely to give a cop a reason to give you a warning, and they usually don't announce that until the very end of the encounter to begin with. Being rude, not following directions, yelling and screaming all escalate situations, and that's never a good thing, even if you do get off with a warning. Finding a video online doesn't really change all the stories of people's attitudes and behaviors leading to cops using more force. Whoa whoa. I'm not talking about anything physical or extreme like not following instructions that require a cop to use force. I'm just saying being generally sour, indignant or having a bad attitude - so maybe that's the disconnect we're having here. And I agree, cops are human. Which means they are just as likely as anyone else to be in a bad mood or obstinate or downright vindictive for no reason at all, regardless of the other person's attitude. And finding videos online I'd say is equally as valid as anecdotal (I think I'm spelling that wrong) stories heard online.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2014 18:17:20 GMT -5
You're right and you're wrong. You're right when you say it's arbitrary (or random, but arbitrary is a much better word), which, again, is sort of the point. And that's why you're wrong when you say it doesn't matter if you're an asshole to a cop. They're human, they're capable of changing their minds, and unless they're complete and total idiots, you have zero chance of beating them if they do. If you're a dick and there's no one recording, you're less likely to give a cop a reason to give you a warning, and they usually don't announce that until the very end of the encounter to begin with. Being rude, not following directions, yelling and screaming all escalate situations, and that's never a good thing, even if you do get off with a warning. Finding a video online doesn't really change all the stories of people's attitudes and behaviors leading to cops using more force. Whoa whoa. I'm not talking about anything physical or extreme like not following instructions that require a cop to use force. I'm just saying being generally sour, indignant or having a bad attitude - so maybe that's the disconnect we're having here. And I agree, cops are human. Which means they are just as likely as anyone else to be in a bad mood or obstinate or downright vindictive for no reason at all, regardless of the other person's attitude. And finding videos online I'd say is equally as valid as anecdotal (I think I'm spelling that wrong) stories heard online. Those situations are just extreme real world examples of how cops react to situations with angry and hostile citizens, it happens on all levels of police work, not just the extreme ones. The fact is, your usually not told you're going to be given a warning or a ticket until the end of the encounter, so there's no real basis to say that your attitude couldn't have affected the outcome. Cops can be obstinate, yes, just like anyone else. But most people, cops included, can be swayed and can change their opinion based on what they see. As someone sitting in a car, you'll never know what was going through their mind, but if we're going to agree that they're human then we must also accept that their opinions on a person change based on how they're treated, and they'll definitely react to certain people differently than others. I never said being a dick will always get you arrested and shot, just that being a dick means they're going to be less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt, because they have the power to determine who gets a warning or a ticket and you won't know what's going through their head until they hand it to you. And the video thing, the reason I don't think it disproves the notion is that cops, just like everyone else, are prone to act differently when they're filmed. They know what gets them in trouble, so they're going to be more cautious. It's why there was a push to make it illegal to film cops in several places, they're afraid of what happens when those citizen videos get released. Cameras are a double edged sword for them, they like having them when a woman accuses them of propositioning her at a traffic stop (assuming they're innocent, of course), but they hate it when they're walking a beat. Adding a camera changes the dynamic of the interaction, and it still represents just a tiny, minute fraction of all encounters. Taking an absolute stance ("being a jerk to a cop in no way affects what happens to you") isn't realistic or accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 18:31:34 GMT -5
Whoa whoa. I'm not talking about anything physical or extreme like not following instructions that require a cop to use force. I'm just saying being generally sour, indignant or having a bad attitude - so maybe that's the disconnect we're having here. And I agree, cops are human. Which means they are just as likely as anyone else to be in a bad mood or obstinate or downright vindictive for no reason at all, regardless of the other person's attitude. And finding videos online I'd say is equally as valid as anecdotal (I think I'm spelling that wrong) stories heard online. The fact is, your usually not told you're going to be given a warning or a ticket until the end of the encounter, so there's no real basis to say that your attitude couldn't have affected the outcome. Cops can be obstinate, yes, just like anyone else. But most people, cops included, can be swayed and can change their opinion based on what they see. As someone sitting in a car, you'll never know what was going through their mind, but if we're going to agree that they're human then we must also accept that their opinions on a person change based on how they're treated, and they'll definitely react to certain people differently than others. Conversely, there's no basis to say that your attitude COULD have affected the outcome either. I mean, and here's another disconnect between us for sure, based on my interactions with people IRL and online, people are equally likely to be NOT swayed based on how they're treated. We've both agreed that there's no guarantee that being nice to a cop will pay dividends for you, by that same logic there's no guarantee that being a dick will be deterimental to you either. Its either arbitrary or its not, y'know? Can it happen? Sure, but I'd say the chances are about equal that it won't. And I can see your point about the cops knowing they're being video taped thing though. That would put their guard up and have them play it more by the book, but even still, its probably a reflection of how they SHOULD act. But I'm not going to test that theory myself! haha! That being said, I just don't think people's attitude towards a cop matters all that much. It could or it couldn't. Its too random and arbitrary to even worry about that much about.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2014 18:42:35 GMT -5
The fact is, your usually not told you're going to be given a warning or a ticket until the end of the encounter, so there's no real basis to say that your attitude couldn't have affected the outcome. Cops can be obstinate, yes, just like anyone else. But most people, cops included, can be swayed and can change their opinion based on what they see. As someone sitting in a car, you'll never know what was going through their mind, but if we're going to agree that they're human then we must also accept that their opinions on a person change based on how they're treated, and they'll definitely react to certain people differently than others. Conversely, there's no basis to say that your attitude COULD have affected the outcome either. I mean, and here's another disconnect between us for sure, based on my interactions with people IRL and online, people are equally likely to be NOT swayed based on how they're treated. We've both agreed that there's no guarantee that being nice to a cop will pay dividends for you, by that same logic there's no guarantee that being a dick will be deterimental to you either. Its either arbitrary or its not, y'know? Can it happen? Sure, but I'd say the chances are about equal that it won't. And I can see your point about the cops knowing they're being video taped thing though. That would put their guard up and have them play it more by the book, but even still, its probably a reflection of how they SHOULD act. But I'm not going to test that theory myself! haha! I don't know, unless someone has a major attachment problem, I don't know of anyone who would never change their opinion of someone based on how they're treated. The inverse, being treated badly and thus forming a bad opinion of a person, is much more likely to be the default on a person. I doubt there are any studies or such, but it seems like basic knowledge that people's opinions of others aren't set in stone unless you have a long history of them, especially if they've just met them (as would be the case of a typical cop/citizen interaction). And the point all along is that it's arbitrary. You were saying your attitude and language it won't have an affect on what an officer will do, that what they decide will occur regardless, me and Vern were just saying that it very much could. It's either possible to change or it isn't, and we take the side that it is. That doesn't mean every interaction in the history of being pulled over will go that way, there are other factors at play, just that it's not an idle factor because cops aren't obligated to tell you if they're going to give a warning, a ticket, or ask to search your car until they decide to end the encounter. And yeah, unless you really know the law, it's better not to test whether a cop will allow you to film him/her. There are a lot of stories where that turns out badly (not anecdotal either, actual video evidence and arrest records).
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King Ghidorah
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Post by King Ghidorah on Apr 18, 2014 18:44:47 GMT -5
Vern has left the thread like 3 times
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 18:52:02 GMT -5
Conversely, there's no basis to say that your attitude COULD have affected the outcome either. I mean, and here's another disconnect between us for sure, based on my interactions with people IRL and online, people are equally likely to be NOT swayed based on how they're treated. We've both agreed that there's no guarantee that being nice to a cop will pay dividends for you, by that same logic there's no guarantee that being a dick will be deterimental to you either. Its either arbitrary or its not, y'know? Can it happen? Sure, but I'd say the chances are about equal that it won't. And I can see your point about the cops knowing they're being video taped thing though. That would put their guard up and have them play it more by the book, but even still, its probably a reflection of how they SHOULD act. But I'm not going to test that theory myself! haha! I don't know, unless someone has a major attachment problem, I don't know of anyone who would never change their opinion of someone based on how they're treated. The inverse, being treated badly and thus forming a bad opinion of a person, is much more likely to be the default on a person. I doubt there are any studies or such, but it seems like basic knowledge that people's opinions of others aren't set in stone unless you have a long history of them, especially if they've just met them (as would be the case of a typical cop/citizen interaction). And the point all along is that it's arbitrary. You were saying your attitude and language it won't have an affect on what an officer will do, that what they decide will occur regardless, me and Vern were just saying that it very much could. It's either possible to change or it isn't, and we take the side that it is. That doesn't mean every interaction in the history of being pulled over will go that way, there are other factors at play, just that it's not an idle factor because cops aren't obligated to tell you if they're going to give a warning, a ticket, or ask to search your car until they decide to end the encounter. I dunno about the first impression thing. I'd wager that people form their opinions pretty quickly of someone before they even speak. All the non-verbals generally make a stronger intial impression than verbal, but hey. I mean, I just don't see someone being swayed by a 35 second interaction. Its not that it CAN'T happen, just not as likely in that very short period of time, unless one of them is SUPER charismatic. And that's fair, but Vern was speaking more in absolutes or that its "common sense," which is what I disagreed with. In context of what we were discussing it came off as "the guy was a dick, he got charged." Cause. Effect, which is what I took issue with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 19:04:01 GMT -5
ANNOUNCEMENT! I'm leaving this thread! Everyone needs to know this, which is why I'm posting about it!! ANNOUNCEMENT OVER!
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 18, 2014 19:07:44 GMT -5
I talk to people for a living, both in my old job as a journalist and the one I'm going in to in the medical field. I can guarantee you that someone's initial response not only influences my first impression, but is the lion's share of it. Obviously, there are other factors at play, but it's impossible to deny that when I only know a person from a couple minutes of talking to them, those couple of minutes are the biggest pillar of my first impression. Cops are no different, when your entire career is making a judgment call based on those 35 second interactions, it's not going to be as hard you think to begin to form opinions based on them. You don't need to be talking to Martin Luther King Jr. There are stubborn people, there always have been, but most people will change their opinion based on how someone treats them. No one just goes off of their first visual contact with someone unless they're deeply prejudiced from the start.
And there also are a lot of people who become cops because they want a certain amount of respect, if they think you're giving it to them, even on a brief interaction, they're probably more prone to being lenient than if you're clearly not. If you don't want to believe that it happens, I'm not going to change your mind, but being a dick to someone in a position of authority isn't going to be ignored all of the time.
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