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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 17, 2006 0:04:38 GMT -5
I guess this is part-rant, part-discussion. I certainly am genuinely interested in hearing what others have to say on this subject.
The more and more I look back on the Monday Night Wars era, with Nitro vs. Raw, my mind has really landed on a single conclusion: I was only really into the whole thing because I was a 13 year old boy smack-dab in puberty.
Look, I'm as big a wrestling fan as you'll find. I grew up a Hulkamaniac, became a die-hard Bret Hart fan, a nWo-ite, a DX-soldier, and I now currently invest far, FAR too much of my hard-earned money into ROH DVD's.
But I see posts everywhere, people waxing nostalgic about the Monday Night Wars era, and it hits me that, really, I don't think they were as great as we like to remember.
Now, now, I'm not saying everything sucked; the introduction of lucha-libre to mainstream wrestling, the growth of technical wrestling in the mainstream (both largely thanks to WCW noticing ECW's success with them), and the birth of the "shades of grey" characters in wrestling are all positive contributions to the business on the whole. Without these things, we'd still be stuck in a past where all heels sided with one another, where the faces were TOO nice, and matches all looked alike.
But the things I see people most pining for, I now question. I see people bemoaning the loss of the sense of tension between two companies, and the surprise if a wrestler from one company showed up in the other. But do I really feel that much regret over not being able to go nuts over "Oh my God, I heard Goldberg was gonna show up on Raw this week, CRAZY!!!"?
Honestly, no.
The Monday Night Wars, to me, began as something really positive; two companies competing with one another, forcing one another to adapt and change their products, and introducing a LOT of new things to the mainstream American audience.
But, in the end, the Wars ended up, in my opinion, hurting wrestling on the whole. As they went on, the fans' attention was taken away from the actual product; instead of worrying about a big feud, or a major title match, we were more interested in seeing DX "attack" the CNN Center, or hearing Bischoff challenge McMahon to a match at a pay per view. Instead of a better product, the characters, skits, and feuds got more outrageous, more idiotic, and, more and more, the era got a feeling "throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks". I say that for both companies.
The irony? WWF only truly won the war when it kind of altered it's approach. It won at a time when they began focusing less on WCW, and more on upping their own product, and giving matches and feuds that included Steve Austin, the Rock, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, the newly arrived Radicalz, etc. 2000 WWF was more of a well-defined WRESTLING product...and that product is basically what sealed the deal on who would win the "Wars". Not to say it was perfect (Jericho vs. Chyna, anyone?), but you catch my drift.
At the end of the day, my feeling is, if you can't put on a watchable product without having another company breathing down your neck, or can't keep my attention without "shooting" on other companies, than, honestly, your show isn't worth my time, energy, or resources. But, again, to me, the Wars brought that mindset on, and it still lingers to this day. Wrestling, as a whole, is stuck in a rut, one that it doesn't seem to want to get out of.
So, I once more pose the question I asked in the title...the Monday Night Wars: can we PLEASE get over it?
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Post by "Sweet & Sour" ImSoFudginGreat on Sept 17, 2006 2:49:40 GMT -5
I haven't got anything to add but i'll say "I concur"
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Ace Diamond
Patti Mayonnaise
Believes in Adrian Veidt, as Should We All.
mmm...flavor text
Posts: 36,043
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Post by Ace Diamond on Sept 17, 2006 3:05:08 GMT -5
Hard to argue with any of the points made here.
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Post by THE Dinobot on Sept 17, 2006 4:33:22 GMT -5
This is a very interesting moot point you brought up, and the results by all could be argued for, what could be, forever.
As usual, I find myself agreeing with HMark to every degree.
By this, are you mentioning like, Raven, Austin and such?*
We can say what we feel about how it's even more like this now days, but then, when the viewership and thus, the ratings were blowing up, it seemed kinda redundant (if that's the right word).
That couldn't be more true.
The Monday Night Wars, while in hindsight isn't as outstanding that the lot of us remember it for, it still, held many a memorable moments and events that still shape the fabric of the wrestling landscape. So, will everyone get over it? Simple answer is, no. But, should it get the praise that is does? Simple answer is, again, no.
*Asked one dumb question, and may have worded some of this wrong and so forth, but wicked tired.
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RAW100023
Don Corleone
Glad to see that my love has returned.
Posts: 1,304
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Post by RAW100023 on Sept 17, 2006 5:43:46 GMT -5
You bring up some great points HMark, and I've talked to some guys that have been in the business, and they have told me what their thoughts have been about the monday night wars that have made me really think. About the Cruiserweights, and techincal wrestling, it was cool that, that was brought into the main stream. And, your right wwe's product did get better once they started making it better.
It does seem like the wars hurt it in a sense from my own thoughts. Well, not as much any more. When TNA finally got a deal with Spike I was excited because I thought they would compete with the wwe head to head. Of course that hasn't happened yet.
If someone would have told me in 1996 when the NWO was hot that wrestling would be in the state that it is in today, I would have told them no way, and that I don't believe them. I think ROH is great, and like you Hmark, I'm saving, and spending way too much hard earned money on ROH shows, and DVD's. As of now I plan on going to 2 shows next month. I think ROH is great though.
At the same time you bring up good points that if you have to have another company breathing down your neck to help you improve your product, then it isn't worth it in ways. I agree with Beniot when he said, "It was a great time to be a wrestling fan." As it was because mainstream wrestling in america had never really seen this.
But the post Monday night wars, attitude era, and wwe's buying of other companies, has caused wrestling to be in the rut. I pray, and hope that it gets out of it soon. As I need something more to fall back on then just sending $20 to ROH for good, and pure wrestling action.
I guess one question remains. Is mainstream wrestling ever going to rebound from the monday night wars? And, will mainstream wrestling ever get back to the point again where Hardcore fans will be coming back? I guess we will have to wait and see. As my mind has changed over the years, I'm now starting to believe that maybe the attitude era, and monday night wars aren't as great as we think it really was.
Peace
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
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Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Sept 17, 2006 7:19:03 GMT -5
HMark you´re my hero
and I concurrrr
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Post by godson on Sept 17, 2006 9:03:58 GMT -5
We can't get over the Monday NIght Wars because WWE and TNA keep shoving it down our throats. Which is the biggest storyline in WWE right now? DX vs. McMAHONS. Who will main event BOund For Glory? Crow Sting vs. Jarrett. WWE 24/7 and DVD's is not helping things out as well. I download over at least 50 matches from the Attitude era this past 2 weeks and I've watch more old wrestling than new wrestling.
We is stuck in a runt.
How can I get over it? I download every great ROH match people told me to watch and to be honest, am not a big fan of their product. I watch TNA everyweek but nothing makes care that much. I haven't watch Smackdown in ages and only about 20 minutes worth of Raw.
I did find a website( thesuperstation.net ) and download NWA Anarchy and NWA VA shows that I like. I'm also a fan of lucha libre.
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Post by destrucity on Sept 17, 2006 11:36:15 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly disagree. Please watch any wrestling show from 1995 to see how pathetically bad both companies were at the start of the war. What caused the end of WCW was not the war, it was a pathetic business plan that did not put in any provisions for a drop in their business. Even at their worst in 2000, the company was still more popular than they were in 1993. By the way, it wasn't just the WWE that altered their approach. WCW did a great job initailly of it also. Again watch a PPV from prior to the war and the start of the NWO. The war forced both companies to change their approach and both had a differing successful formula for a period of time.
As far as getting over it, every time Vince pulls his pants down on Minday night, I still reach over for my remote and remember the good old days of when I could put on TNT
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Post by Lenny: Smooth like Keith Stone on Sept 17, 2006 11:48:25 GMT -5
Well I for one loved the Monday Night Wars era not so much for the wrestling involved, but due to the fact that almost everyone I knew watched wrestling during that time. I used to gather together with like 20 people to watch the latest WWF pay-per-view... we used to make big parties out of it. The Rock would cut one of his hilarious promos, and all of us in the room would laugh along with him and have a great time. It wasn't about the wrestling really; it was about the friends and fun associated with watching.
Nowadays I can count on one hand the number of friends I have that even watch wrestling. Every now and then we'll order a PPV but it's not a big party or anything. It's basically just me and 1 or 2 other guys saying "Yep, it's a PPV."
So to me, the Monday Night War was about the atmosphere and environment associated with watching wrestling, and not so much about the actual programming. And that's one thing I really loved about that era.
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Post by theedge on Sept 17, 2006 12:03:24 GMT -5
There is no wrestling available that touches the excitement of the Monday Night Wars/Attitude Era. I do believe it is overrated when compared to anything from the late 80's/early 90's, but looking back on it now, there is no question as to why it was so popular.
WWE is monotonous, TNA is generic and ROH is utterly boring. There is no "if I don't like this, I'll flip to the other." That is the major difference between now and then.
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Post by godson on Sept 17, 2006 12:13:42 GMT -5
Sums up the Monday Night Wars and current MMA very well. It's the whole aura around it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 17, 2006 13:43:40 GMT -5
There is no wrestling available that touches the excitement of the Monday Night Wars/Attitude Era. I do believe it is overrated when compared to anything from the late 80's/early 90's, but looking back on it now, there is no question as to why it was so popular. WWE is monotonous, TNA is generic and ROH is utterly boring. There is no "if I don't like this, I'll flip to the other." That is the major difference between now and then. Don't know how ROH is "utterly boring", but whatever, you still have a point. I think another way I can take my argument is that the Wars era really hurt the concept of "wrestling basics". Normally, when booking a show, you book to your company's strengths, and not worry about outside stuff. But, during a time when you have two big companies looking to put the other out of business, you suddenly have to start booking AGAINST the other company, along with booking just for yourself. Again, it's something I feel has carried over; the concepts of basic booking, of introducing young talent properly, of building up feuds intelligently, of just using the tried and true methods that gave us such good products through the 1980's in a whole multitude of different companies (from WWF, to NWA, to AWA, to SMW, etc.), have been neglected for lame attempts to recreate "Crash TV". As a positive example of properly pushing a younger talent in the "old school style", look at Jimmy Rave's push in ROH; initially, he was a joke heel, a loser who you really weren't supposed to take that seriously. However, over the span of a few months, he began wrestling in more important matches (i.e. his Pure Title matches with John Walters), got into a couple of minor feuds (like the one with Jay Lethal from early 2005), before finally taking his big step up in early '05 when his feud began with CM Punk. He wasn't immediately given a title for no well-thought-out reason, he wasn't really shoved down anyone's throat, and he wasn't pushed to be the top money-making heel in the company; he was pushed into a prominent role, and given the chance to show he can hang there. When he did, the company knew they had a solid premiere heel on their hands. This, to me, stands in stark contrast to the WWE approach over the last few years, where there's this aura of "If you don't draw IMMEDIATELY, you're fired/depushed/repackaged etc." It also stands in stark contrast to the WWE approach of trying to constantly recreate the Rock or Stone Cold. Its a basic, fundamentally-sound approach that took a midcard comedy act, and made it into a potential main event draw, one that can give you quality matches and feuds for a LONG time to come, since you haven't compromised the act's integrity with the crowd. That's wrestling. You don't just jump from character to character, hoping one of them is the next big thing; you build up a core of talent, a wide, varied array of unique performers who give you a multitude of match and feud options to chose from. Rave is an entirely different kind of wrestler from Colt Cabana, who's entirely different from Austin Aries, who's entirely different from Nigel McGuinness, etc. etc. etc. Going the other way, just trying to create an instant money-making sensation that brings wrestling back into the mainstream, brings us things like John Cena. How often have we heard "they want him to be like Austin"? Why do you think they have Shelton dressing as the Rock? Hell, why do you think the Raw set hasn't changed in a decade? The irony? Before the Wars era, and before the Zahorian steroid trials...wrestling WAS a mainstream thing. I don't just mean Rock n' Wrestling WWF; I mean ALL the big companies. It wasn't weird if you were a wrestling fan in the 70's/80's; it was perfectly normal, accepted, and well liked, and, in most regions, drew great ratings and gate sales. Not to say EVERYONE felt that way, but what can you do? Obviouly, Hulkamania was what REALLY brought it into the mainstream, but it's almost like it's further away from the mainstream now than it was 30 years ago. And, again, I think we partially have the Attitude era to blame for that. The era of Bra and Panty matches, of "Viagra on a Pole" matches...this is what I mean when I say it started out great, but all went wrong. It started by making wrestling "acceptable" again, by making it more popular than ever, and ended with people just looking down on it as nothing more than sexually exploitative, mindless crap...because it was. I was a kid, and "OMG BEWBS!" and stuff like that was cool at the time; but, my God, gotta grow up sometime. As for the issue of the sheer atmosphere of it all, I do agree; almost every guy in my middle school back in the day was a wrestling fan. We could all talk about it on Tuesday mornings, and it wasn't weird to see someone with nWo or Austin stuff in their backbag. It was definately fun. My point is more that it was fun then...it just wasn't built to last, and we, as fans, are suffering for that now, since the wrestling companies seem to want to act like it was, as if they can milk some of that magic from 10 years ago and still get something out of it today. But instead of doing what made it so great 10 years ago (better actual wrestling that mainstream audiences had never been exposed to; complex feuds involving interesting characters and well thought out twists and turns; etc.), they instead seem to just keep falling back on what did it 8 or so years ago: the sex appeal, the "huh-huh, he said ASS" humor, and the stuff that generally got put into RD's first book. God, I know I'm all over the place, but this always felt like a topic that REALLY needed to be discussed by fans in general.
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Post by theedge on Sept 17, 2006 14:12:30 GMT -5
There is no wrestling available that touches the excitement of the Monday Night Wars/Attitude Era. I do believe it is overrated when compared to anything from the late 80's/early 90's, but looking back on it now, there is no question as to why it was so popular. WWE is monotonous, TNA is generic and ROH is utterly boring. There is no "if I don't like this, I'll flip to the other." That is the major difference between now and then. Don't know how ROH is "utterly boring", but whatever, you still have a point. ROH is boring to me because I enjoy the more lively aspects of wrestling. The silly, yet funny story lines, the major stars from the past making meaningless appearances, etc. I appreciate the guys in ROH for their athleticism much in the same way I enjoy watching a Benoit match, but I'm more appreciative of the spectacle and entertainment than I am worried about having a 60 minute blow-off match. I don't think ROH is a horrible company and I'd like to see a handful of guys from there end up in WWE eventually, I just think they intentionally market their product to a different audience than the one that includes myself. If the things I dislike about ROH were to suddenly change, it would basically take away what makes some ROH fans appreciate it the most. Not trying to pass it off as fact, just that I'm personally bored by it. Just how I feel everything in WWE is so overdone and TNA is like WCW's lazy little brother, speaking for myself only.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Sept 17, 2006 14:58:04 GMT -5
/\ clearly you've never seen Emo Jimmy Jacobs
fair enough, though, I wish people would leave the Monday Night War era behind. it was awesome then, but that was then and this is now. people are tired of seeing the same crap that happened 5 years ago. I think we need some truely new concepts to get things going again, because what made the attitude era great was trying new things (unique characters like Raven or Steve Austin, who had never been done before, or new angles like a 2 year feud wherein one guy ALWAYS had the upper hand only to be humiliated in the end or an Evil Boss who exploits his talent to his benefit). as it stands, I doubt a 42 year old born again and a 38 year old son in law acting like 5 year olds is gonna draw in any new fans, ditto for a midcard joke feuding with a man whose 10 years past his prime.
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Post by -Lithium- on Sept 17, 2006 15:07:07 GMT -5
Hey...if that was still going on(The Wars), there would be NO Kiss My Ass club...doesnt matter what was going on the other show, Im sure just about anyone would pick it over Vince showing his ass...
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Sept 17, 2006 15:36:42 GMT -5
maybe there would have been a KMA club, because lets face it it seemed during that period that WWF and WCW would have tried ANYTHING to pop ratings a little bit, but it would probably been done once, not gotten over because of how relatively dumb it was, and never been heard from again.
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wcwite
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,157
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Post by wcwite on Sept 17, 2006 15:52:28 GMT -5
The Monday Night Wars will never be forgotten, wrestling now is garbage so why not wish for the good times back?
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 17, 2006 16:55:59 GMT -5
See, that's funny to me (personal opinion here), since I probably laugh at more stuff in ROH than I do in other US wrestling companies. They have some great, great comedy wrestlers (Cabana, Jacobs, the Embassy's schtick, guest appearances by Kikutaro, etc.), some great characters and gimmicks, and what have you, basically without insulting anyone's intelligence and while putting on great matches in the process. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The thing about "wanting the past back", though, is part of why wrestling sucks, at least on the whole, now. The past wasn't all as great as you might like to remember it, plus, the more we as fans stay stuck in the past, the more the companies will cling to what happened almost a decade ago, instead of looking ahead.
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Post by godson on Sept 17, 2006 17:26:15 GMT -5
It's something about Ring of Honor that I don't like. Maybe because I download all the good matches for free and don't really watch the entire shows(I don't care what anyone says, it's expensive to keep up unless you wealthy or don't pay bills). Everybody called the Cage of Death match from this year great, I thought it was average. I'm also not a big fan of current puro and ROH loves using current puro stars,am more of a lucha guy. I'm still waiting for ROH to book Danielson vs. Santo. I'm trying to get people to follow the Mid Atlantic movement with guys like Damien Wayne and Preston Quinn. People also need to watch NWA Anarchy, it's FREE. Just go to thesuperstation.net/ , a new show every Monday.
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Post by s2k on Sept 17, 2006 18:08:58 GMT -5
I think the Monday Night War killed wrestling. I honestly do. Giving away PPV calibre matches on free television, over-saturating characters just for the sake of ratings, and bastardizing PPV's by making the weekly shows 2-3 hours in length. That's what the War accomplished. Was it fun? Absolutely. Did it revive wrestling? Of course. But at the end of the day, it shortened the careers of many athletes and over-exposed characters to the point where after THREE years, there was NOTHING left for Austin or Rock to do. Nothing.
I grew up on '80's wrestling. Where seeing Hogan on television was a treat. Where seeing two significant mid-carders wrestle on free TV was used very seldomly (usually on SNME). Characters were given a chance to grow. Squash matches were used to get the audience accustomed to a certain wrestler(s). Promos were aplenty. That's the way to build interest for buying PPV's, attending house shows, and so on.
During the War, Austin would wrestle Rock on television. He'd wrestle Big Show (and pin him clean) in Show's first significant WWF match. He'd wrestle Angle on TV. Jericho versus Triple H on TV. All the top WCW stars would wrestle against each other weekly. And on, and on, and on. That type of crash booking necessitates building stars at a rapid fire pace because the shelf-life of each character is going to be VERY small.
Some of the best things hurt in the long run. I think the Monday Night War is one of them. Great for short-term excitement, but it's created the mess we see today (that's the WWE's fault more than anything, but it's not like WCW would of been any different had it stayed on the air).
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