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Post by angryfan on Sept 23, 2014 19:30:40 GMT -5
With the Jeter love fest going on. Keith had this on todays show Couldn't agree more, and it's not that I hate the Yankees (or not JUST that I hate the Yankees). Hell, I'm old, but I grew up with George Brett, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, and Tony Gwynn all playing their whole careers with one team. All four, frankly, were far better all around players than Jeter was, with Brett admittedly not being that great defensively. I get the whole "he hasn't been an overt colossal dickbag, and he's a great player, so we should celebrate", but it's reaching hyperbolic levels at this point.
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andrew8798
FANatic
on 24/7 this month
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Post by andrew8798 on Sept 23, 2014 19:43:15 GMT -5
Angel Pagan will undergo season-ending back surgery on Thursday.
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andrew8798
FANatic
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Post by andrew8798 on Sept 23, 2014 20:02:17 GMT -5
Bad night for Felix
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on Sept 23, 2014 20:12:45 GMT -5
With the Jeter love fest going on. Keith had this on todays show Couldn't agree more, and it's not that I hate the Yankees (or not JUST that I hate the Yankees). Hell, I'm old, but I grew up with George Brett, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, and Tony Gwynn all playing their whole careers with one team. All four, frankly, were far better all around players than Jeter was, with Brett admittedly not being that great defensively. I get the whole "he hasn't been an overt colossal dickbag, and he's a great player, so we should celebrate", but it's reaching hyperbolic levels at this point. usually think Olberman's douche, but this is the strongest argument against Jeter I ever seen. Covers all grounds including the "intangibles" that people salivate over. Don't get me wrong, great/hall of fame player but nowhere near the G.O.A.T. Those teams during the dynasty were stacked with great veterans. I also thought that Bernie Williams and Paul O'Neil were better in that time frame (96-00) '
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Post by fuzzywarble, squat cobbler on Sept 23, 2014 20:52:33 GMT -5
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 38,961
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Post by fw91 on Sept 23, 2014 20:56:44 GMT -5
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Post by angryfan on Sept 23, 2014 21:27:47 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more, and it's not that I hate the Yankees (or not JUST that I hate the Yankees). Hell, I'm old, but I grew up with George Brett, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, and Tony Gwynn all playing their whole careers with one team. All four, frankly, were far better all around players than Jeter was, with Brett admittedly not being that great defensively. I get the whole "he hasn't been an overt colossal dickbag, and he's a great player, so we should celebrate", but it's reaching hyperbolic levels at this point. usually think Olberman's douche, but this is the strongest argument against Jeter I ever seen. Covers all grounds including the "intangibles" that people salivate over. Don't get me wrong, great/hall of fame player but nowhere near the G.O.A.T. Those teams during the dynasty were stacked with great veterans. I also thought that Bernie Williams and Paul O'Neil were better in that time frame (96-00) ' Same boat, man. Look, I'm a baseball history dork, and Jeter's numbers are first ballot hall of fame any day of the week. He's been a class person his whole career (gift baskets for one night stands notwithstanding), and I don't want to discredit that. I just don't think he's top five in all around SS in my lifetime (I'm 37). Ozzie and Omar were better on D, Cal had more power, Barry Larkin was as well-rounded as anyone, ARod, no matter what you think of him, was better on defense at short, had more power (roids, I know) and hit for a higher average.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,574
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Post by Renslayer on Sept 23, 2014 21:33:18 GMT -5
With the Jeter love fest going on. Keith had this on todays show Heh, it's never gonna happen, but the media & most Yankee fans are also gonna have to admit that Jeter wasn't the best shortstop in his prime...
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andrew8798
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Post by andrew8798 on Sept 23, 2014 21:46:14 GMT -5
Pirates edge Braves to clinch playoff spot
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 61,972
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Sept 23, 2014 21:52:01 GMT -5
I am a Mets fan I find this hilarious.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 23, 2014 21:59:22 GMT -5
Jeter was a mediocre defensive shortstop at best who made a few spectacular defensive plays here and there. But outside of making the routine plays, he wasn't anything special on a regular basis. A lot of the times he was outright bad. Yet somehow he won a Gold Glove 5 times, which goes to show you how worthless that particular award is. usually think Olberman's douche, but this is the strongest argument against Jeter I ever seen. Covers all grounds including the "intangibles" that people salivate over. Don't get me wrong, great/hall of fame player but nowhere near the G.O.A.T. Those teams during the dynasty were stacked with great veterans. I also thought that Bernie Williams and Paul O'Neil were better in that time frame (96-00) ' Same boat, man. Look, I'm a baseball history dork, and Jeter's numbers are first ballot hall of fame any day of the week. He's been a class person his whole career (gift baskets for one night stands notwithstanding), and I don't want to discredit that. I just don't think he's top five in all around SS in my lifetime (I'm 37). Ozzie and Omar were better on D, Cal had more power, Barry Larkin was as well-rounded as anyone, ARod, no matter what you think of him, was better on defense at short, had more power (roids, I know) and hit for a higher average. Ripken hit way more home runs, but he and Jeter had very similar slugging percentages (Cal's .447 to Jeter's .440) and Jeter actually had a better OPS (.817 to Cal's .788), although Jeter's much better OBP accounts for that. Jeter also had a better batting average, though we're talking about power and not overall hitting. Looking at oWAR, Cal Ripken has a career 77.2 and Jeter has 95.3 (and that's in spite of Cal playing an extra year; oWAR is cumulative). But Cal owned Jeter defensively. Cal had a 34.6 dWAR and Jeter's is -9.4. Though A-Rod didn't hit for a higher average. His career BA is .299 (and it was still a little lower even when he was exclusively a SS; .309 with Seattle and .305 with Texas) while Jeter's is .310. Though he's better than Jeter in just about every other offensive category, including OBP and OPS.
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domrep
Hank Scorpio
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Post by domrep on Sept 23, 2014 22:15:01 GMT -5
My math may be off but I think it's almost impossible for Seattle or Cleveland to make the playoffs at this point. Royals win tomorrow and they're pretty much a lock to make it. But I guess my question is, it's been almost 30 years since the Royals made the playoffs, does the play in game count? It's technically not a playoff series.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 23, 2014 22:23:45 GMT -5
I consider the Wild Card game a playoff game as it is a planned postseason game and not a Game 163 tiebreaker.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Sept 23, 2014 22:46:07 GMT -5
You know, those stats arguments are strong for all this Jeter stuff, but there is one thing Jackass Keith forgets to even talk about. The fact that Derek Jeter, no matter what he was, has been for so long the heart and soul of the Yankees and for an era of people screwing their reputations via cheating, he was for the Yankees one of those who played ball the right way and he was a incredible ambassador for the New York Yankees off the field. Heck, this is the way it probably will be done for players of that importance and if I recall the Cal Ripken Jr. Farewell Tour, he always got stuff at EVERY final series at other teams stadiums.
Yes, he is not the greatest Yankees player ever and only idiotic people and players who learned almost everything from him will say he is. But the attempt to crap on a player's parade because he played ball the right way while even glorifying Alex FREAKING Rodriguez, is just wrong.
So F*** You Keith Olbermann, you crotchety old bastard who thought he was so great that he tried to burn his damn bridges at ESPN and only went to crawl back to him after two networks (both of who share his sort of views) told him to Get The F Out.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Sept 23, 2014 23:06:00 GMT -5
Also despite Toronto crushing Seattle again, a Royals win means they are officially eliminated by the postseason.
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Post by angryfan on Sept 23, 2014 23:07:03 GMT -5
You know, those stats arguments are strong for all this Jeter stuff, but there is one thing Jackass Keith forgets to even talk about. The fact that Derek Jeter, no matter what he was, has been for so long the heart and soul of the Yankees and for an era of people screwing their reputations via cheating, he was for the Yankees one of those who played ball the right way and he was a incredible ambassador for the New York Yankees off the field. Heck, this is the way it probably will be done for players of that importance and if I recall the Cal Ripken Jr. Farewell Tour, he always got stuff at EVERY final series at other teams stadiums. Yes, he is not the greatest Yankees player ever and only idiotic people and players who learned almost everything from him will say he is. But the attempt to crap on a player's parade because he played ball the right way while even glorifying Alex FREAKING Rodriguez, is just wrong. So F*** You Keith Olbermann, you crotchety old bastard who thought he was so great that he tried to burn his damn bridges at ESPN and only went to crawl back to him after two networks (both of who share his sort of views) told him to Get The F Out. Heart and soul of a team is all well and good except...well, except anyone NOT in New York who's had the same label has been raked over the coals and has their reputation trashed. Bagwell or Biggio in Houston? Same era, same hall of fame numbers, but both guys got "well, teammates were on the roids so...". Since we know A-Rod was on the juice, we know Clemens was, we know Petit was, we know Giambi was, do we just label Jeter as a cheat who must've been roided up since they were? Biggio got that label and he was a doubles hitter, so it's not just power guys. Pudge Rodrquez is the greatest defensive catcher I've ever seen, but he'll never sniff the hall because he played in Texas. Now do I think Jeter juiced? Nah, I think it's ridiculous, but the same broad strokes crap that has applied to everyone else, seemingly, should probably hit him too, since there's more "circumstantial" (if/then statements that mean nothing but have still tained way too many people) evidence for him then for a lot of other guys. Ripken got a farewell tour because Ripken broke the unbreakable record. Mo got one but he was the greatest closer the game has ever seen. Jeter, well, he was a great hitter at the top of the lineup for a long, long time. Other than that, and being a Yankee, I don't see "greatest" anything about him.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 23, 2014 23:15:41 GMT -5
I can see people getting tired of the Jeter overhype and oversaturation, especially if they already hate the Yankees. The Yankees fans and media types going "BEST OF ALL TIME!" and "HE SHOULD BE AN UNANIMOUS HALL OF FAMER" are hilariously wrong. If Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, or Willie Mays can't get 100%, no one should.
But there is a lot to his legacy to celebrate and he absolutely is a first ballot hall of famer. I grew up watching him. I remember going to s Yankees game in May 1996, his first full year of the majors. I think he went for like 1-for-3, but I remember my dad going to me "This Jeter kid is going to be a really good player." And boy was he right.
He doesn't make it into the Yankee Mount Rushmore. He doesn't come close to Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, or Mantle. Or Yogi for that matter. But you can make a strong case for him, Ford, or Rivera being #6, with the other two taking 7 and 8.
I'm sick of all the merchandizing, but that won't take away from how special Thursday's game will be. Assuming it doesn't get rained out.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Sept 23, 2014 23:20:26 GMT -5
You know, those stats arguments are strong for all this Jeter stuff, but there is one thing Jackass Keith forgets to even talk about. The fact that Derek Jeter, no matter what he was, has been for so long the heart and soul of the Yankees and for an era of people screwing their reputations via cheating, he was for the Yankees one of those who played ball the right way and he was a incredible ambassador for the New York Yankees off the field. Heck, this is the way it probably will be done for players of that importance and if I recall the Cal Ripken Jr. Farewell Tour, he always got stuff at EVERY final series at other teams stadiums. Yes, he is not the greatest Yankees player ever and only idiotic people and players who learned almost everything from him will say he is. But the attempt to crap on a player's parade because he played ball the right way while even glorifying Alex FREAKING Rodriguez, is just wrong. So F*** You Keith Olbermann, you crotchety old bastard who thought he was so great that he tried to burn his damn bridges at ESPN and only went to crawl back to him after two networks (both of who share his sort of views) told him to Get The F Out. Heart and soul of a team is all well and good except...well, except anyone NOT in New York who's had the same label has been raked over the coals and has their reputation trashed. Bagwell or Biggio in Houston? Same era, same hall of fame numbers, but both guys got "well, teammates were on the roids so...". Since we know A-Rod was on the juice, we know Clemens was, we know Petit was, we know Giambi was, do we just label Jeter as a cheat who must've been roided up since they were? Biggio got that label and he was a doubles hitter, so it's not just power guys. Pudge Rodrquez is the greatest defensive catcher I've ever seen, but he'll never sniff the hall because he played in Texas. Now do I think Jeter juiced? Nah, I think it's ridiculous, but the same broad strokes crap that has applied to everyone else, seemingly, should probably hit him too, since there's more "circumstantial" (if/then statements that mean nothing but have still tained way too many people) evidence for him then for a lot of other guys. Ripken got a farewell tour because Ripken broke the unbreakable record. Mo got one but he was the greatest closer the game has ever seen. Jeter, well, he was a great hitter at the top of the lineup for a long, long time. Other than that, and being a Yankee, I don't see "greatest" anything about him. It was never about being the greatest, it was about being the heart and soul of the most popular team in baseball. He is getting all of this because of what he meant to baseball for so many years, being the captain of the team (which like it or not, he was). Jeter is considered one of the biggest role models in today's baseball and because so many players looked up to him, that is why he is getting this treatment by teams. Now does the media freaking over-hype the hell out of this; yes...he is from a New York team so of course that is going to happen? Like it or not, but these farewell tours have almost never been about the stats in the end, they have been about what impact they brought to the game for future generations and that is something that can't be labeled. The Ripken and Soriano ones while the stats were nice, were never about that. They were about saying goodbye to someone who they loved and admired.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 23, 2014 23:23:11 GMT -5
If you're a major star and you announce your retirement ahead of time, you're going to get a farewell tour. Chipper Jones got one, too.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
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Post by khali on Sept 23, 2014 23:47:20 GMT -5
Jeter is definitely deserving of a big send off. It's just the over-saturation and hyperbole that annoy me. People saying he's the greatest Yankee ever and the greatest shortstop ever is when it gets out of control.
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