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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jul 10, 2014 15:12:21 GMT -5
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 10, 2014 15:12:29 GMT -5
And what would that be? I like to be educated and not randomly ridiculed with no explanation. You listed several more gimmicks in the Caucasian section compared to the others, sort of proving the problem with race the WWE has by accident. It's partly this... the caucasian section is even divided in half, practically doubling the tropes (the fact that foreigners can be played by Americans, like Lana, complicates it, too). But yeah, the American Caucasian section is clearly more varied, to the point that there's no coherent set of stereotypes. Maybe another way of saying the same thing is that there's no stereotype that white people are surfer dudes the same way that there's a stereotype that Asian people sneak around and know karate. Just because a particular character could only be played by a white person, that doesn't mean it's a cultural thing that affects white people as a whole. The hillbillies thing is I think the best point, but that's far less of a "white" thing and more of a "poor person" thing. I don't think anyone could disagree with the overall point that the WWE caricatures people all over... christ, look at Rusev. Russia and Bulgaria don't even freakin' BORDER each other. But, that doesn't mean these caricatures are as likely to affect people of different races.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 15:13:54 GMT -5
Nothing much to add other than hopefully someone tries to question Vince about this on his next quarterly conference call. Dude will evade with a quickness.
I do think that it's kind of ridiculous that the writer uses Alicia Fox as a positive example when her crazy person character was based on that one chick wilding out on Jay-Z.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 15:14:41 GMT -5
Nothing much to add other than hopefully someone tries to question Vince about this on his next quarterly conference call. Dude will evade with a quickness. Once he tears both quads during the attempted escape it'll allow stock holders to make him admit things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 15:17:23 GMT -5
It might help if you gave reasons as to why that is instead of just "that's how it is". I already mentioned earlier, Booker as world champion beat Cena as WWE champ and Big Show as ECW champion. Ignoring any pre-conceived notions, in kayfabe, how is Booker T as world champion not level with John Cena as WWE champion? Because in Real-Life, Booker T is champion of a show we're not supposed to care about the way we're supposed to care about Raw. I'm not talking about kayfabe. I dunno... I've been off-and-on saying Pro-Wrestling Fandom's got issues for months now. I'd say it's both to varying degrees. WWE is shady as hell. Pro-Wrestling Fandom is shady as hell, though no quite to the extent and to the same degree WWE is.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Jul 10, 2014 15:17:23 GMT -5
I am so sick of the whole WM19 thing being incorrectly labelled as racist, I think I'm the only person in the world who actually got that promo. The whole "people like you" thing was in reference to B-level superstars, guys out there to entertain and be comic relief. "Do a little dance for me" - oh, did everyone suddenly forget that Booker's biggest pop move was the spin-a-roony, a comic relief move typically used by B-level entertainers. "nappy hair" - okay, I have no idea what that's supposed to mean so I'll call that a racist comment. I was shocked when HHH cut this promo because it acknowledged the fact that Booker T wasn't at HHH's level. The storytelling was great and it set Booker T up to enter the top main event level. Then of course the wrong guy went over and shot the whole thing to hell, but I'd chalk that up more to HHH politics and bad booking than racism. The writer actually does acknowledge my point that it was all painting Booker T as an entertainer below HHH's level, but rather than pointing out that the exact promo and storyline could have been cut on Buff Bagwell, Alex Wright, Disco Inferno, Scotty too Hotty, Grandmaster Sexay, Honky Tonk Man, or any other white b-level entertainer, he chooses to view it as racism. Do I know for a fact that this whole thing was not based on race as so many people choose to believe? No of course not. But which is more plausible? My theory, or the theory that they needed to risk the bad publicity of a racism angle because they had no other way of getting their rocks off? Are you the only person in the world who actually didn't get the decades of systematic and blatant racism in American history reflected in Triple H's comments?
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jul 10, 2014 15:19:45 GMT -5
I don't think it's ignore so much as that we all know there's a pecking order with the title belts. It's not the "big one" the wwe championship. Again the issue is that JBL by going with other people's comments was never a world champion because he was on the B show and never headline over the Raw main event. But nobody has ever argued that. If you don't think Booker T or Henry or Bobby Lashley (ECW) count as world champions then you have to argue Eddie and JBL weren't world champions either. I don't think that's the argument. I think it's an argument of importance. It's not that they were world champions, but that it was the "B" belt.
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mrbananagrabber
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Post by mrbananagrabber on Jul 10, 2014 15:21:16 GMT -5
"Is there a problem?" * throws Xavier Woods through window * "I don't THINK so."
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Post by joeiscool on Jul 10, 2014 15:21:37 GMT -5
I find the rock to be a really blaring issue with wwe and race..
When the rock was with the nation, they played up his father's(who is black) history, but as soon as he started main eventing they played up his grand father's(who is Samoan). While I'm sure the rock's grand father influenced him enough, he had to of been more inspired by his father.
I how ever think there are three bigger issues here.
A: It's tv, and people generally watch shows that have characters that they can identify with. Since at this time most of the American population is white wwe is trying to appeal to more white people.
B: WWE is kinda a "family, and friends" operation. A lot of wrestlers aren't just pushed on skills alone, but sometimes based on who they are related to, and who they are friends with. You have a guy like Bob Orton who has a son who wants to wrestle, is he going to go to bat for Kofi Kingston, or is he going to hype his son up?
C: There are less opportunities to black people to wrestle, which means there are less black people wrestling. Where I live the average black income is like 13k but the white is about 20k. The only wrestling school around here is $1,000. Who is more likely to have 1,000 to spend on something that could be as frivolous as wrestling lessons?
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Jul 10, 2014 15:23:06 GMT -5
The World Title being equal to The Spinner Belt? I thought it was obvious how unequal they were just looking at the purposes they served a lot of the time. Even if you want to call it a top title, it usually was the top title of the B-Show given to people too big for mid-card titles but not preferred enough for the WWE title. Like...people trying to tell me The World Title was equal to Cena's Spinner is like telling me Raw and Smackdown were shows with equal standing. Sure, you might like SD more. Sure, SD may have had better matches. Sure, you might have had moments to where WWE tried to make the show and title mean more (which, yeah...). Sure, they certainly started off as an equal show with an equal title, but that hasn't been the case for ages now. And no, they weren't in the same standing by the time Booker won the World Title. That's just me seeing a general pattern to how WWE treated their shows. EDIT: I've got to say this is literally the first time I've ever seen people try to convince me the World Title and Spinner Belts were equal. I'm not sure what that means. I think the World Title when Triple H had it during the Reign of Terror and Brock/JBL had it on Smackdown during those years, it was equal. Of course this was the early days of the brand split so that was to be expected. But once Batista and Cena flip flopped shows and the Super Cena push went full force (and that's another story for another Cena debate thread but anyway) and the opponets for the World Title went from guys like Goldberg and HBK to Great Khali and Jack Swagger and Christian over the years, it was clear as day it was the B-Title for the B-show. The only time this wasn't the case was when Hunter and the WWE title were on Smackdown in 2008, THEN the B-Show had the top belt.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Jul 10, 2014 15:29:31 GMT -5
It might help if you gave reasons as to why that is instead of just "that's how it is". I already mentioned earlier, Booker as world champion beat Cena as WWE champ and Big Show as ECW champion. Ignoring any pre-conceived notions, in kayfabe, how is Booker T as world champion not level with John Cena as WWE champion? Because in Real-Life, Booker T is champion of a show we're not supposed to care about the way we're supposed to care about Raw. I'm not talking about kayfabe. Says who? Raw was here first and is live, that's the advantages it has over SmackDown. But a decade ago, there was nothing to suggest WWE "favoured" Raw. Hell, it was beneficial to WWE for people to like SmackDown as much as Raw, that was the whole point of the brand split in the first point. Only as time went on did SmackDown clearly become a "B-show". In 2006 when King Booker was champion, there was nothing to suggest WWE wanted you to like Raw better. If that's how you perceived it, then that's your prerogative.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 10, 2014 15:31:55 GMT -5
In regards also to Booker winning the big one at WM19, keep in mind that this was also around the time the World Title was incredibly high in importance and by the time Mark Henry got it, Jack Swagger, Great Khali and Dolph Ziggler were former World Champions and at that point, it really was the secondary title. At that point, it hadn't main evented a pay per view since Kane vs The Undertaker.
In 2006 though, Booker did become the World Champion, and while the title wasn't as badly damaged as before, it was at the time when John Cena was the number one guy. But, on the other hand, Booker also was still main eventing Smackdown brand pay per view.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 15:36:15 GMT -5
It is implied though. I'm half-chinese and half white, but when people ask I say identify as white because I don't feel like I've had any kind of Chinese/Chinese-Amercian experience growing up. But I also don't run around saying, "NOT Chinese" when people ask because it is implicit in identifying as white. If he wanted to be identified as black or half-black he would have said as much. His omission speaks just as much.Oh it does not. Is Barack Obama not the first black president just because he's only half-black? Barack Obama self-identifies as black, so yes he is the first black president. I'm not sure how your example applies.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Jul 10, 2014 15:37:24 GMT -5
Because in Real-Life, Booker T is champion of a show we're not supposed to care about the way we're supposed to care about Raw. I'm not talking about kayfabe. Says who? Raw was here first and is live, that's the advantages it has over SmackDown. But a decade ago, there was nothing to suggest WWE "favoured" Raw. Hell, it was beneficial to WWE for people to like SmackDown as much as Raw, that was the whole point of the brand split in the first point. Only as time went on did SmackDown clearly become a "B-show". In 2006 when King Booker was champion, there was nothing to suggest WWE wanted you to like Raw better. If that's how you perceived it, then that's your prerogative. Exactly. The WWE had no reason to make Raw look like the superior product back in 2006 because they still did brand split and charged each PPV not named Mania the same. The WWE wanted fans to buy both Raw and Smackdown PPVs so they can get as much money as possible. In no way would it have been profitable for the WWE to intentionally make Smackdown the minor leagues and still expect fans to pay the same for that show than what they can pay for the "A" program PPVs.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Jul 10, 2014 15:39:15 GMT -5
In regards also to Booker winning the big one at WM19, keep in mind that this was also around the time the World Title was incredibly high in importance and by the time Mark Henry got it, Jack Swagger, Great Khali and Dolph Ziggler were former World Champions and at that point, it really was the secondary title. At that point, it hadn't main evented a pay per view since Kane vs The Undertaker. In 2006 though, Booker did become the World Champion, and while the title wasn't as badly damaged as before, it was at the time when John Cena was the number one guy. But, on the other hand, Booker also was still main eventing Smackdown brand pay per view. You could argue Batista would have been level with Cena push-wise had he not gotten injured. And really he was anyway because anytime Batista was around, he was involved with the world title just like Cena was always with the WWE title. Cena's push was better though because like I said, Batista's injuries.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 10, 2014 15:40:49 GMT -5
Because in Real-Life, Booker T is champion of a show we're not supposed to care about the way we're supposed to care about Raw. I'm not talking about kayfabe. Says who? Raw was here first and is live, that's the advantages it has over SmackDown. But a decade ago, there was nothing to suggest WWE "favoured" Raw. Hell, it was beneficial to WWE for people to like SmackDown as much as Raw, that was the whole point of the brand split in the first point. Only as time went on did SmackDown clearly become a "B-show". In 2006 when King Booker was champion, there was nothing to suggest WWE wanted you to like Raw better. If that's how you perceived it, then that's your prerogative. Didn't Booker get drafted to Raw an immediately become a midcarder?
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Fiddleford H. McGucket
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Post by Fiddleford H. McGucket on Jul 10, 2014 15:41:16 GMT -5
It would be cool if there was another Native American wrestler besides Tatanka. One who isn't a walking stereotype usually played by someone who isn't even Native. I'm Native myself and would like to see my people represented. I understand why that's not very realistic though, because there's like three of us left. Maybe I should become a wrestler. There is/Was Charlie Norris in WCW in the early 90s en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Native_American_professional_wrestlersBut here's a Wiki List......Of (supposedly) ACTUAL Native American wrestlers....Not just Italian Guys in a headress (*Cough* Chief Jay Strongbow *Cough*).... Though it doesn't list Norris and DOES list Kevin Nash
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 15:41:17 GMT -5
Also - Batista is Filipino. So there's another one.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Jul 10, 2014 15:42:43 GMT -5
Says who? Raw was here first and is live, that's the advantages it has over SmackDown. But a decade ago, there was nothing to suggest WWE "favoured" Raw. Hell, it was beneficial to WWE for people to like SmackDown as much as Raw, that was the whole point of the brand split in the first point. Only as time went on did SmackDown clearly become a "B-show". In 2006 when King Booker was champion, there was nothing to suggest WWE wanted you to like Raw better. If that's how you perceived it, then that's your prerogative. Didn't Booker get drafted to Raw an immediately become a midcarder? He was drafted in 2007 almost 9 months later and was in the first raw ppv main event for the WWE title.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Jul 10, 2014 15:43:50 GMT -5
Booker T. or Mark Henry holding a title, and what that title did or didn't mean at the time, doesn't make the article's point any less valid. The same goes for The Rock being black.
Historically, black performers have gotten a raw deal in WWE. Now, such problems are certainly not exclusive to WWE. But like with most things wrestling, it's a lot less subtle, and hence easier to point out, than it might be elsewhere.
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