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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 17, 2014 11:15:38 GMT -5
I have the same opinion with casting, if the actor's good, great, if it's challenging the imbalance aspirational TV has for making every one a white straight bloke up until the year 2000 at the same time, even better. As long as it makes sense in the products internal logic then what's the issue? I'm in this boat as well. To me, I'm more concerned about the quality of the actor portraying the character rather than the ethnicity/gender of the actor. The only caveat is if the character is somehow rooted deeply in their race to the point casting against that would be detrimental to the story. I'd say the majority of comic book characters' race aren't that central to the plot or the spirit of the character. Especially ironic is the fact that many of the more prominent Marvel characters were created as a reaction to the racism and prejudice in America. So if you REALLY want to stay true to the character.... If people just want to hold on to what they know/percieve the character to be in its original medium, I understand that sentiment, but don't see it as a valid reason for NOT casting a more-than-capable actor to portray a role whose race doesn't really play a factor in the story. And the arguement that "the creators intended them to be white...." or whatever is a pretty empty talking point when you consider that DC/Marvel has made numerous changes to a characters' origin/personality over the years that many current intepretations of a character in a comic book are a far cry from what they started as. So the "creator's intentions" thing doesn't really hold water. Hence why I wouldn't pitch a fit if say, Superman were all of a sudden drawn as Hispanic from here on out. At worst it would be tokenism, and yes, it would be more productive for an original Hispanic character to shine instead, but Supes could be any skin color and the general ideas behind the character would remain intact. Not the case with someone like Black Panther or Wonder Woman, and the "what if they were changed into a white guy or a man?" question is kind of an extreme and implausible scenario.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
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James Franco is the white Donald Glover
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Jul 17, 2014 11:17:26 GMT -5
I do know. Lets use myself on the Thor thing as a case study. Big Thor comic fanboy for over 30 years. An entire shelf full of collectables, movies, favorite comics, hell even have Pez dispensers up there. They think enough of the character to release 2 pretty good movies focusing on the character, and he's part of an ensemble in others. Then you get the publicity stunt announcement saying "oh yeah..Thor's a girl now". Needless to say not exactly the news you want to hear. Then here comes your mini me daughter in and goes "hey dad...gonna have to draw some boobs on all your collectable figures now huh". So yeah, needless to say I'm pretty angry over them using my favorite character to make a "statement" to try to sell comics. Now I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who are just making noise about race and gender recasts because they have serious social issues concerning those things. All I'm saying is there's a good chance alot of the backlash to this type of recast is just "Stop f***ing with the characters we actually have a monetary and emotional investment in" If you want a big time black character, promote the ones you have already. Hell Black Panther screams big time, he's considered one in the way he's written so promote his ass like Roman Reigns, Marvel. If you want a gay/trans/female/asian/whatever then utilize an existing character with that background or make a new one and promote the crap outta it. Stop f***ing with the existing ones and telling the fans of that character to "deal with it", and criticizing those people for speaking out. If they wanted to use the gay character in Marvel use Northstar, Rictor, Cullen Bloodstone, Luna Depaula and those are off the top of my head. The issue with Marvel is like with DC they tend to promote their big characters like Iron Man, and the rest of the Avengers yet Black Panther is an awesome character the same with Cloak and Dagger which is another good series that promotes interracial dating. Some of the characters listed were the Ultimate Version of them and Spider-Man in the Ultimate line became Miles because Peter died. I feel like Marvel is trying to get younger fans in and barely caring about the hardcore fans
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 11:23:22 GMT -5
I'm cool with it, because again when it comes to comics, readers aren't trying to get into new characters especially if they aren't white dudes.
For black characters specifically? Well, people believe what they see. If they don't see black people doing heroic shit and all they see are black people being criminals... We tend to get treated as if we are all potential criminals, ready to anger at a moments notice over some trivial shit. We tend to believe that since we never are the heroes or the people who matter in a story outside of dying, we never can be heroes and our stories aren't worth telling.
Everybody else believes that too.
The way society views contributes to a lot of the shit we have to deal with every day to varying degrees.
Besides, I don't get it when characters get whitewashed (Ra's Al-Ghul, Bane, Fox from Wanted, possibly Shredder, most of the cast of that "21" movie...) and nobody outside of the people who usually get hosed on representation give a shit. So I don't understand why making a few characters black is a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 11:23:41 GMT -5
I'm in this boat as well. To me, I'm more concerned about the quality of the actor portraying the character rather than the ethnicity/gender of the actor. The only caveat is if the character is somehow rooted deeply in their race to the point casting against that would be detrimental to the story. I'd say the majority of comic book characters' race aren't that central to the plot or the spirit of the character. Especially ironic is the fact that many of the more prominent Marvel characters were created as a reaction to the racism and prejudice in America. So if you REALLY want to stay true to the character.... If people just want to hold on to what they know/percieve the character to be in its original medium, I understand that sentiment, but don't see it as a valid reason for NOT casting a more-than-capable actor to portray a role whose race doesn't really play a factor in the story. And the arguement that "the creators intended them to be white...." or whatever is a pretty empty talking point when you consider that DC/Marvel has made numerous changes to a characters' origin/personality over the years that many current intepretations of a character in a comic book are a far cry from what they started as. So the "creator's intentions" thing doesn't really hold water. Hence why I wouldn't pitch a fit if say, Superman were all of a sudden drawn as Hispanic from here on out. At worst it would be tokenism, and yes, it would be more productive for an original Hispanic character to shine instead, but Supes could be any skin color and the general ideas behind the character would remain intact. Not the case with someone like Black Panther or Wonder Woman, and the "what if they were changed into a white guy or a man?" question is kind of an extreme and implausible scenario. Exactly - I mean, Wonder Woman as an Asian Woman - that would still work, but not as a man as it goes against what makes the character what it is. I mean, to play devil's advocate on behalf of a caucasian character I would make the arguement that due to character history a guy like Wolverine would need to be caucasian. Considering the length of time he's been alive and the places he'd need access to, he'd have to be caucasian. What's interesting, from a socio-political standpoint at least, is that characters like Tony Stark HAD to be white because the idea of a black/latino industrialist billionaire in America in the mid-60's was even more implausible than a man flying. It wasn't like the writers said to themselves, "...and he'll be white because only a white guy could EVER have the experience." It was a (bad) sign of the times. In 2014, a (for example) Latino billionaire, lethario, industrialist isn't so implausible by a long shot.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 17, 2014 11:25:55 GMT -5
I tend to not care too much unless race was a major part of the character, which most of the time it's not. Kingpin I thought was perfect because Micheal Clark Duncan seemed to be the only person on the planet built bulky enough to be Kingpin anyway. Now I want to see Native American Captain America. I think it could be awesome. We almost had Jesse Black Crow as the new Cap in the 80's. goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/03/15/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-94/
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 17, 2014 11:30:18 GMT -5
Also, Falcon as Cap isn't 'changing the race' at all. He's a legacy character; Hell Sam headed the title for a bit in the 70's as Steve had retired.
This isn't at all anything that could be construed as tokenism.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 17, 2014 11:33:17 GMT -5
The problem is a lot of the time, minority characters are recast as white characters and no one bats an eye, or at least doesn't even know. Apparently April O'Neil was black in the TMNT comics. So basically, why not?
I think it would be more of a problem if everyone was equal and people weren't chosen for parts because they're minorities. If everyone had a free shot at getting a part based on their ability, then it might be viewed as more of an issue. Basically, white is the default character for everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 11:45:33 GMT -5
Hence why I wouldn't pitch a fit if say, Superman were all of a sudden drawn as Hispanic from here on out. At worst it would be tokenism, and yes, it would be more productive for an original Hispanic character to shine instead, but Supes could be any skin color and the general ideas behind the character would remain intact. Not the case with someone like Black Panther or Wonder Woman, and the "what if they were changed into a white guy or a man?" question is kind of an extreme and implausible scenario. Exactly - I mean, Wonder Woman as an Asian Woman - that would still work, but not as a man as it goes against what makes the character what it is. I mean, to play devil's advocate on behalf of a caucasian character I would make the arguement that due to character history a guy like Wolverine would need to be caucasian. Considering the length of time he's been alive and the places he'd need access to, he'd have to be caucasian. What's interesting, from a socio-political standpoint at least, is that characters like Tony Stark HAD to be white because the idea of a black/latino industrialist billionaire in America in the mid-60's was even more implausible than a man flying. It wasn't like the writers said to themselves, "...and he'll be white because only a white guy could EVER have the experience." It was a (bad) sign of the times. In 2014, a (for example) Latino billionaire, lethario, industrialist isn't so implausible by a long shot. I don't think it's so much Tony Stark not being a white dude was implausible, though I might be giving the writers too much credit there. It might be because Marvel felt a certain segment of the American population wasn't trying to read anyone other than a white guy in that kind of position. I mean, dude. It was the early sixties. Literally nothing about the character of Wolverine means he has to be a white guy. The one reason I wouldn't want him to be a black dude, for instance, would be because being animalistic is a well-known part of his character. Would some of the finer details have to change? Maybe, but once you start writing about a nearly immortal dude with claws and healing powers you can really go however you want...and considering how malleable comic continuity is...
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Jul 17, 2014 11:49:22 GMT -5
There's the big problem that back when most of the iconic comic characters were created, it was in a time that was appallingly racist, appallingly sexist, and appallingly homophobic. And so most of DC and Marvel's big-name heroes are, you guessed it, straight, white and male. People seem to completely ignore how this situation came about in the first place.
The second big problem is that the companies refuse to do anything without their big names. How many Batman and Superman movies have there been now? 14, with a 15th and 16th coming up shortly? How many movies have there been based on newer characters who venture outside of 'straight/white/male'? I'm counting one. Steel. I mean, come on, even Wonder Woman, one of DC's flagship names and best known characters, hasn't had a single movie. Her first big screen appearance was in the bloody Lego Movie. So saying "WELL USE NEW CHARACTERS" doesn't particularly work as an argument when it's never going to happen.
And as people have said, it's funny how it's never seen as a problem when it's the other way round. Countless characters have been changed to white, and just the other day we had the news that the new Constantine series is going to completely ignore his bisexuality. Funnily enough, fandom hasn't been getting outraged about how these beloved characters are having their characteristics from the comics changed. Almost like a lot of the regular outrage is about something else... Hm.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jul 17, 2014 11:52:03 GMT -5
I'm excited for The Falcon becoming Captain America.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 11:56:40 GMT -5
Exactly - I mean, Wonder Woman as an Asian Woman - that would still work, but not as a man as it goes against what makes the character what it is. I mean, to play devil's advocate on behalf of a caucasian character I would make the arguement that due to character history a guy like Wolverine would need to be caucasian. Considering the length of time he's been alive and the places he'd need access to, he'd have to be caucasian. What's interesting, from a socio-political standpoint at least, is that characters like Tony Stark HAD to be white because the idea of a black/latino industrialist billionaire in America in the mid-60's was even more implausible than a man flying. It wasn't like the writers said to themselves, "...and he'll be white because only a white guy could EVER have the experience." It was a (bad) sign of the times. In 2014, a (for example) Latino billionaire, lethario, industrialist isn't so implausible by a long shot. I don't think it's so much Tony Stark not being a white dude was implausible, though I might be giving the writers too much credit there. It might be because Marvel felt a certain segment of the American population wasn't trying to read anyone other than a white guy in that kind of position. I mean, dude. It was the early sixties. Literally nothing about the character of Wolverine means he has to be a white guy. The one reason I wouldn't want him to be a black dude, for instance, would be because being animalistic is a well-known part of his character. Would some of the finer details have to change? Maybe, but once you start writing about a nearly immortal dude with claws and healing powers you can really go however you want...and considering how malleable comic continuity is... Well, I meant more in how he had to fight in certain wars that were whites-only and stuff like that. Even his origin is based in upper-class caucasian society. Now, there's no reason they couldn't re-tool some stuff throughout the timeline of his character history to make an Asian Logan work, but I was speaking in terms of his character history. But I agree about the mid-sixties thing. That was kind of my point actually. People wouldn't accept anyone but a white person in that role or any role that wasn't strictly defined by their race. Especially hilarious is that people couldn't accept the idea of a billionaire Latino, but COULD accept a caucasian alien/demi god who could fly, shoot lazers from his eyes, etc etc.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 17, 2014 12:05:38 GMT -5
There's the big problem that back when most of the iconic comic characters were created, it was in a time that was appallingly racist, appallingly sexist, and appallingly homophobic. And so most of DC and Marvel's big-name heroes are, you guessed it, straight, white and male. People seem to completely ignore how this situation came about in the first place. The second big problem is that the companies refuse to do anything without their big names. How many Batman and Superman movies have there been now? 14, with a 15th and 16th coming up shortly? How many movies have there been based on newer characters who venture outside of 'straight/white/male'? I'm counting one. Steel. I mean, come on, even Wonder Woman, one of DC's flagship names and best known characters, hasn't had a single movie. Her first big screen appearance was in the bloody Lego Movie. So saying "WELL USE NEW CHARACTERS" doesn't particularly work as an argument when it's never going to happen. And as people have said, it's funny how it's never seen as a problem when it's the other way round. Countless characters have been changed to white, and just the other day we had the news that the new Constantine series is going to completely ignore his bisexuality. Funnily enough, fandom hasn't been getting outraged about how these beloved characters are having their characteristics from the comics changed. Almost like a lot of the regular outrage is about something else... Hm. Not fully disagreeing with you but Constantine isn't nearly as known as Thor and Cap. and his bisexuality tends to be downplayed even in the comics as until I saw that news post a few days ago I didn't even realize he was supposed to be bisexual. I mean I've never picked up Hellblazer or Constantine with any kinda regularity but whenever I tended to read a random issue he was usually flirting with women exclusively. That said I got no problems with Falcon taking up the Captain America mantle since A. he's had it before and B. has been one of Steve's best friends for years. Also I agree that MCD was pretty much perfect choice for Kingpin
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Post by Cyno on Jul 17, 2014 12:14:00 GMT -5
Hellblazer is pretty much a C-Tier comic at best so you won't see as much as an uproar about it because John Constantine's fandom is far smaller than the big guns.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 12:40:24 GMT -5
These characters were created in a time to reflect what their audience was then and they can be changed to reflect what their audience is now. It's that simple to me.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 17, 2014 12:43:00 GMT -5
What's interesting, from a socio-political standpoint at least, is that characters like Tony Stark HAD to be white because the idea of a black/latino industrialist billionaire in America in the mid-60's was even more implausible than a man flying. It wasn't like the writers said to themselves, "...and he'll be white because only a white guy could EVER have the experience." It was a (bad) sign of the times. In 2014, a (for example) Latino billionaire, lethario, industrialist isn't so implausible by a long shot. What you say is true but Tony Stark was also based on a real person who was a white guy.
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Dragonfly
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Post by Dragonfly on Jul 17, 2014 12:44:14 GMT -5
A friend of mine (he's black) boycotted the Daredevil movie for years because of Michael Clarke Duncan. "The Kingpin wasn't black in the comics," he says, "so he shouldn't be black in the movie." He feels the same way about Nick Fury, though he does concede that Sam Jackson is a better choice than David Hasselhoff.
Oh... And as far as he's concerned, there's only one man truly capable of playing Wilson Fisk: The Big Show.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 17, 2014 13:05:14 GMT -5
That's just sad. Duncan is so far above Show as an actor it's ridiculous.
Besides, Kingpin was never 7 ft tall.
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Post by bluemeii on Jul 17, 2014 13:22:10 GMT -5
What's interesting, from a socio-political standpoint at least, is that characters like Tony Stark HAD to be white because the idea of a black/latino industrialist billionaire in America in the mid-60's was even more implausible than a man flying. It wasn't like the writers said to themselves, "...and he'll be white because only a white guy could EVER have the experience." It was a (bad) sign of the times. In 2014, a (for example) Latino billionaire, lethario, industrialist isn't so implausible by a long shot. What you say is true but Tony Stark was also based on a real person who was a white guy. And Thor is based of an at one time worshipped diety along with some of the characters from Asgard in the comics. Sorry, not getting over the whole "gender change for marketing" thing they are doing. If the change was being done for the sake of storytelling, you know what fine. This isn't. This is solely for the news bite. Why are they relaunching the series (again......) at #1 otherwise.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 17, 2014 13:27:56 GMT -5
What's interesting, from a socio-political standpoint at least, is that characters like Tony Stark HAD to be white because the idea of a black/latino industrialist billionaire in America in the mid-60's was even more implausible than a man flying. It wasn't like the writers said to themselves, "...and he'll be white because only a white guy could EVER have the experience." It was a (bad) sign of the times. In 2014, a (for example) Latino billionaire, lethario, industrialist isn't so implausible by a long shot. What you say is true but Tony Stark was also based on a real person who was a white guy. He was also supposed to be the symbol of American Capitalism/Exceptionalism during the height of the Cold War. Sort of an evolution of the concept behind Captain America but for a different time. It's no coincidence that his rogues gallery was made up of bad guys mostly from Communist countries (The Mandarin, Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man, etc.). And we weren't even past segregation yet so yeah he was going to be white. Also I love that Sam Wilson's getting a chance to play Cap. He makes the most sense, especially with Bucky Barnes being Winter Soldier again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 13:36:57 GMT -5
What you say is true but Tony Stark was also based on a real person who was a white guy. And Thor is based of an at one time worshipped diety along with some of the characters from Asgard in the comics. Sorry, not getting over the whole "gender change for marketing" thing they are doing. If the change was being done for the sake of storytelling, you know what fine. This isn't. This is solely for the news bite. Why are they relaunching the series (again......) at #1 otherwise. So a fictional character based off a fictional character being changed into woman for marketing purposes is a problem nearly everything Marvel/DC does is for marketing purposes. Let's not act like this is the ONE thing they do to get attention. And its too early to say whether or not its being done for the sake of storytelling - they could have a really good story set up for this female Thor. Not holding my breath because its marvel, but still.
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