So what's with these "raceovers"?

[willywonka666]

We've talked about it before, and I have two big problems with recasting white characters with black actors/characters.

1. I guess I'm anal about tradition and not straying from the original concept of things. I don't like change for the sake of change.

and

2. People that accuse one of being racist if they have a problem with it.

I think Cracked did an article informing everyone of what they are REALLY feeling when they complained about talk of the Human Torch character suddenly being brought back as a black character.

Now though, it seems they are doing it for the sake of doing it-it's a bandwagon

The Human Torch
The Kingpin
Nick Fury
Little Orphan Annie
Jessica Fletcher(Murder She Wrote) -Though this probably isn't happening now
Ultimate Spider Man
The Equalizer
and now-Captain America

This is not to start a stink or anything, just really wondering the point.

[jagilki]

Eh, the Captain America one is different, as it's a new person in the suit.

[A Platypus Rave]

Jul 17, 2014 9:24:41 GMT -5 jagilki said:

Eh, the Captain America one is different, as it's a new person in the suit.

as is the Ultimate Spider-man

[Deleted]

Without going into the aspects of casting or the big point of the topic, honestly, I consider EVERY adaption of every story on its own terms.

If you're making a film, copying a book wholesale will rarely ever work.
If you're making a TV show, copying a film structure will rarely ever work.
If you're making ____, copying ____ won't work.

The piece of art can stand up on its own, whether it's good or not should not be judged by 'it's different from the original!'

I have the same opinion with casting, if the actor's good, great, if it's challenging the imbalance aspirational TV has for making every one a white straight bloke up until the year 2000 at the same time, even better. As long as it makes sense in the products internal logic then what's the issue?

[Push R Truth]

I tend to not care too much unless race was a major part of the character, which most of the time it's not. Kingpin I thought was perfect because Micheal Clark Duncan seemed to be the only person on the planet built bulky enough to be Kingpin anyway.



Now I want to see Native American Captain America. I think it could be awesome.

[The Tank]

There are some cases where I do honestly believe it's casting the best person for the job.

One example being one you posted: Aside from his skin color disqualifying him from being a perfect portrayal automatically, Michael Clarke Duncan was probably the closest thing to a perfect casting for a human being for a live-action portrayal of The Kingpin. Big, muscular, charismatic, badass, scary as hell.

But most of the time, it's just (or at least feels like) it's diversifying for the sake of diversity. Which really points out a bigger problem: they really need to stop just "raceovering" white characters and f***ing build up their non-white characters.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

A lot of the time the changes are mostly just a shoehorned attempt at diversity, but at the same time a lot of the backlash to the change actually is racial or just bigoted in nature. Like with the Thor thing, I know there's a difference between people who understandably don't want their favorite character changed for a publicity stunt and actual sexists, but often it's really hard to tell with some fans, given the level of volume from both.

There are, believe it or not, a good chunk of fans (of any property) who don't give a damn if a minority character is 100% original or a new interpretation of an existing one, or even if the character is well written. They just don't want to read about (or play as) a non-white, trans, gay or female character.

I'm not happy about forced diversity either, but I'd say that's a far bigger issue to deal with now.

[bluemeii]

I do know. Lets use myself on the Thor thing as a case study. Big Thor comic fanboy for over 30 years. An entire shelf full of collectables, movies, favorite comics, hell even have Pez dispensers up there. They think enough of the character to release 2 pretty good movies focusing on the character, and he's part of an ensemble in others.

Then you get the publicity stunt announcement saying "oh yeah..Thor's a girl now". Needless to say not exactly the news you want to hear. Then here comes your mini me daughter in and goes "hey dad...gonna have to draw some boobs on all your collectable figures now huh".

So yeah, needless to say I'm pretty angry over them using my favorite character to make a "statement" to try to sell comics. Now I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who are just making noise about race and gender recasts because they have serious social issues concerning those things. All I'm saying is there's a good chance alot of the backlash to this type of recast is just "Stop f***ing with the characters we actually have a monetary and emotional investment in"

If you want a big time black character, promote the ones you have already. Hell Black Panther screams big time, he's considered one in the way he's written so promote his ass like Roman Reigns, Marvel. If you want a gay/trans/female/asian/whatever then utilize an existing character with that background or make a new one and promote the crap outta it. Stop f***ing with the existing ones and telling the fans of that character to "deal with it", and criticizing those people for speaking out.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Jul 17, 2014 10:14:19 GMT -5 bluemeii said:

I do know. Lets use myself on the Thor thing as a case study. Big Thor comic fanboy for over 30 years. An entire shelf full of collectables, movies, favorite comics, hell even have Pez dispensers up there. They think enough of the character to release 2 pretty good movies focusing on the character, and he's part of an ensemble in others.

Then you get the publicity stunt announcement saying "oh yeah..Thor's a girl now". Needless to say not exactly the news you want to hear. Then here comes your mini me daughter in and goes "hey dad...gonna have to draw some boobs on all your collectable figures now huh".

So yeah, needless to say I'm pretty angry over them using my favorite character to make a "statement" to try to sell comics. Now I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who are just making noise about race and gender recasts because they have serious social issues concerning those things. All I'm saying is there's a good chance alot of the backlash to this type of recast is just "Stop f***ing with the characters we actually have a monetary and emotional investment in"

If you want a big time black character, promote the ones you have already. Hell Black Panther screams big time, he's considered one in the way he's written so promote his ass like Roman Reigns, Marvel. If you want a gay/trans/female/asian/whatever then utilize an existing character with that background or make a new one and promote the crap outta it. Stop f***ing with the existing ones and telling the fans of that character to "deal with it", and criticizing those people for speaking out.

You could argue that they're not helping the issue by changing pre-existing characters, but wouldn't you at least agree that the fact that there are so many bigots making noise is a bigger concern than whether or not Thor has another X chromosome?

I dunno, I can see why long time fans would be upset by it, but a lot of the legit ugliness in the wake of it strikes me as way more important right now.

[bluemeii]

Jul 17, 2014 10:25:05 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Jul 17, 2014 10:14:19 GMT -5 bluemeii said:

I do know. Lets use myself on the Thor thing as a case study. Big Thor comic fanboy for over 30 years. An entire shelf full of collectables, movies, favorite comics, hell even have Pez dispensers up there. They think enough of the character to release 2 pretty good movies focusing on the character, and he's part of an ensemble in others.

Then you get the publicity stunt announcement saying "oh yeah..Thor's a girl now". Needless to say not exactly the news you want to hear. Then here comes your mini me daughter in and goes "hey dad...gonna have to draw some boobs on all your collectable figures now huh".

So yeah, needless to say I'm pretty angry over them using my favorite character to make a "statement" to try to sell comics. Now I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who are just making noise about race and gender recasts because they have serious social issues concerning those things. All I'm saying is there's a good chance alot of the backlash to this type of recast is just "Stop f***ing with the characters we actually have a monetary and emotional investment in"

If you want a big time black character, promote the ones you have already. Hell Black Panther screams big time, he's considered one in the way he's written so promote his ass like Roman Reigns, Marvel. If you want a gay/trans/female/asian/whatever then utilize an existing character with that background or make a new one and promote the crap outta it. Stop f***ing with the existing ones and telling the fans of that character to "deal with it", and criticizing those people for speaking out.

You could argue that they're not helping the issue by changing pre-existing characters, but wouldn't you at least agree that the fact that there are so many bigots making noise is a bigger concern than whether or not Thor has another X chromosome?

I dunno, I can see why long time fans would be upset by it, but a lot of the legit ugliness in the wake of it strikes me as way more important right now.

Oh I'll agree with the fact that there are bigots out there blowing this thing up. It does suck that unfortunately fans of the character's complaints are just getting lumped in with the rest of them, and yes that pisses me off as well.

To look at it from another perspective. What about the people who after a race/gender change ONLY like the character now cause they are female, or ONLY like another character cause they are now black. Take Green Lantern, people threw a fit cause they used Hal for the movie instead of John from the cartoon. There were was at least one black person I know (my father in law) who was screaming bloody murder cause they turned Green Lantern white. From reading things on the internet, he was not a lone incident. Goes both ways.

All I'm saying is stop f***ing with the existing characters. Make the ones you have compelling or make new ones. People have attachments to the characters for whatever reason, and they shouldn't be screwing with their existing fans for quick money grabs.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Falcon as Cap is awesome, given their history.

Besides, Steve will be back in the suit by the time Avengers 2 is in theaters.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Jul 17, 2014 10:43:26 GMT -5 bluemeii said:

Jul 17, 2014 10:25:05 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

You could argue that they're not helping the issue by changing pre-existing characters, but wouldn't you at least agree that the fact that there are so many bigots making noise is a bigger concern than whether or not Thor has another X chromosome?

I dunno, I can see why long time fans would be upset by it, but a lot of the legit ugliness in the wake of it strikes me as way more important right now.

Oh I'll agree with the fact that there are bigots out there blowing this thing up. It does suck that unfortunately fans of the character's complaints are just getting lumped in with the rest of them, and yes that pisses me off as well.

To look at it from another perspective. What about the people who after a race/gender change ONLY like the character now cause they are female, or ONLY like another character cause they are now black. Take Green Lantern, people threw a fit cause they used Hal for the movie instead of John from the cartoon. There were was at least one black person I know (my father in law) who was screaming bloody murder cause they turned Green Lantern white. From reading things on the internet, he was not a lone incident. Goes both ways.

I've never seen that, everything I've read pertaining to GL on any internet forum seems to have a pro-Hal slant.

I do find John far more interesting TBH, and not due to his complexion.

[bluemeii]

See in terms of storytelling, that makes sense.

He's been Cap before, worked beside him for years. Got no problem with that. Got a problem with them using character changes as a damn marketing ploy too. Of all places to announce the Thor change....the View? Yeah no ulterior motive there.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Nick Fury wasn't made black. Ultimate Nick Fury was always a black guy and the MCU decided to use him instead.

[Hit Girl]

Characters should be depicted as the same race/gender etc... as their creators originally intended.

Unless their creators stipulated otherwise, or made allowances for future changes and interpretations.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Jul 17, 2014 10:49:30 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Jul 17, 2014 10:43:26 GMT -5 bluemeii said:

Oh I'll agree with the fact that there are bigots out there blowing this thing up. It does suck that unfortunately fans of the character's complaints are just getting lumped in with the rest of them, and yes that pisses me off as well.

To look at it from another perspective. What about the people who after a race/gender change ONLY like the character now cause they are female, or ONLY like another character cause they are now black. Take Green Lantern, people threw a fit cause they used Hal for the movie instead of John from the cartoon. There were was at least one black person I know (my father in law) who was screaming bloody murder cause they turned Green Lantern white. From reading things on the internet, he was not a lone incident. Goes both ways.

I've never seen that, everything I've read pertaining to GL on any internet forum seems to have a pro-Hal slant.

I do find John far more interesting TBH, and not due to his complexion.

You went to the right places. Almost everyone were screaming bloody murder that they changed GL into a white guy.

[A Platypus Rave]

Jul 17, 2014 10:51:15 GMT -5 Thaal Sinestro said:

Nick Fury wasn't made black. Ultimate Nick Fury was always a black guy and the MCU decided to use him instead.

he is now black in 616 as well...

only it's his son... or something... that everyone treats like regular Nick Fury... it's confusing.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Jul 17, 2014 11:02:26 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Jul 17, 2014 10:51:15 GMT -5 Thaal Sinestro said:

Nick Fury wasn't made black. Ultimate Nick Fury was always a black guy and the MCU decided to use him instead.

he is now black in 616 as well...

only it's his son... or something... that everyone treats like regular Nick Fury... it's confusing.

Yep and White Nick Fury is an old guy with a bunch of robot clones.

[Deleted]

Jul 17, 2014 9:28:17 GMT -5 @pauledraperously said:

I have the same opinion with casting, if the actor's good, great, if it's challenging the imbalance aspirational TV has for making every one a white straight bloke up until the year 2000 at the same time, even better. As long as it makes sense in the products internal logic then what's the issue?

I'm in this boat as well.

To me, I'm more concerned about the quality of the actor portraying the character rather than the ethnicity/gender of the actor.

The only caveat is if the character is somehow rooted deeply in their race to the point casting against that would be detrimental to the story.

I'd say the majority of comic book characters' race aren't that central to the plot or the spirit of the character. Especially ironic is the fact that many of the more prominent Marvel characters were created as a reaction to the racism and prejudice in America. So if you REALLY want to stay true to the character....

If people just want to hold on to what they know/percieve the character to be in its original medium, I understand that sentiment, but don't see it as a valid reason for NOT casting a more-than-capable actor to portray a role whose race doesn't really play a factor in the story.

And the arguement that "the creators intended them to be white...." or whatever is a pretty empty talking point when you consider that DC/Marvel has made numerous changes to a characters' origin/personality over the years that many current intepretations of a character in a comic book are a far cry from what they started as. So the "creator's intentions" thing doesn't really hold water.

[Reflecto]

Jul 17, 2014 10:25:05 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

Jul 17, 2014 10:14:19 GMT -5 bluemeii said:

If you want a big time black character, promote the ones you have already. Hell Black Panther screams big time, he's considered one in the way he's written so promote his ass like Roman Reigns, Marvel. If you want a gay/trans/female/asian/whatever then utilize an existing character with that background or make a new one and promote the crap outta it. Stop f***ing with the existing ones and telling the fans of that character to "deal with it", and criticizing those people for speaking out.

You could argue that they're not helping the issue by changing pre-existing characters, but wouldn't you at least agree that the fact that there are so many bigots making noise is a bigger concern than whether or not Thor has another X chromosome?

I dunno, I can see why long time fans would be upset by it, but a lot of the legit ugliness in the wake of it strikes me as way more important right now.

Even if that's the case- the simple fact is that, the change itself isn't giving these groups the strong characters they deserve and doing them a disservice as well. Changing an existing character's race just to check a group off of a checklist and say "well, we have one now, you can't complain" is the very definition of tokenism, and that is just as bad as not having one at all. With some rare exceptions (mostly gay/trans changes, since they can both be realized later in life and be perfectly reasonable for character development), It won't lead to a good character and, more importantly, teaches these groups to settle for being given a check list and just being happy eating a piece of candy from the other jar instead of asking for more in THEIR jar.

It'd be much better to promote the heroes they do have and make them as big as possible...or better for all involved, give opportunities to real life writers or artists from the groups in question and tell them "you have carte blanche. Whatever you want to write for them, do it. MAKE YOUR OWN SUPERHERO FOR US"- both giving better, stronger characters and giving better, stronger opportunities to people of those groups.